I'd like to start a discussion on where this site is heading relative to the introduction of the new Cobalt as the Cavalier's successor in the Chevrolet lineup. While Pontiac will continue with Sunfire production for now, it is generally accepted that ultimately, the J-body platform will cease to exist.
The nameplate change aside, Cobalt is the 'new Cavalier', at least as far as its placement in the Chevrolet lineup. Built on the new Delta platform, the Cobalt is a much improved vehicle in many ways as compared to Cavalier. This is very encouraging...Chevy is currently in the midst of a major renaissance that goes way past marketing hype. The number of new models, and intense dedication to overall technological improvement is unprecedented...we are witnessing the ultimate fruits of the Lutz era. When the world's largest automaker get a notion to reinvent itself, it can bring some mighty strong resources to bear.
As such, we all have to understand just how this will play out in the enthusiast marketplace. Our Saturn brothers are about to be more closely related to the new Chevy than the current J-body group is. Yet, there are some strong common threads: these are all GM's well-prepared entries into the hot current market, and the Ecotec engine is now indelibly stamped on both Saturn and J-body, both in stock vehicle availability and racing successes.
How to proceed? At the very least, the Cobalt owners will need a resource. They are likely to develop one of their own if one is not made available quickly. This site could perform that purpose, and it is truly the best resource available for them in terms of GM compact experience. But, it's called J-body...should it change names? Ultimately, I say yes, if only for it to not slowly wither over time.
Then, the question of Saturn comes into focus. It's hard to include the Cobalt and exclude its sister Delta car. The strongest, most effective voice is always the most unified one. To unite all GM compacts under one umbrella would be a magnificient, and likely arduous, goal, but it may be the most effective route.
And of course, let's not forget the upcoming Solstice, and any other vehicles (likely!) that will spring from its platform. Like the Saturn and the Cobalt and the J-body, very Ecotec-centric.
What I've typed here is not so much my personal agenda as it is a number of points to spark debate. Speak your mind, but let's keep it real...this is a serious debate!
<br>
Bill Hahn Jr.
Hahn RaceCraft
World's Quickest and Fastest Street J-Bodies
Turbocharging GM FWD's since 1988
www.turbosystem.com
It's great site, no doubt...but it doesn't address the bulk of the J-body enthusiast base, which are non-Ecotec. I'd hate to see division among the ranks based on this factor alone.
Would you like a system for the car in your sig pic? Just say the word
<br>
Bill Hahn Jr.
Hahn RaceCraft
World's Quickest and Fastest Street J-Bodies
Turbocharging GM FWD's since 1988
www.turbosystem.com
I don't understand why everyone is so obsessed with the Cobalt.
You guys are loyal to the dam thing because of the Cavalier, but it's not the same car!
Yes, the Cobalt is a far superior car to the Cavalier, but it should be, it's a brand new design. The Cavalier is what, 15-20 years old? If the Cobalt wasn't far superior to the Cavalier, there would be something seriously wrong.
But, forget about comparing it to the Cavalier. Compare it to other new cars. What does the Cobalt have going for it that makes it so special? In fact, what goes GM have going for it right now in it's small car division? Nothing.
Many people on here seem to think that GM has listened to you, and has produced a car in which has a strong foundation and will be easily modded, but that's not the case.
GM has produced another performance-lacking family car. Sedan or coupe, doesn't matter, it is nothing more than a family car. GM is not targetting "tuners" with the Cobalt. GM doesn't give a monkeys crap about tuners.
There's going to be so many disappointed people on here when they purchase the Cobalt. Not only will it be slow as balls, there will be NO aftermarket parts available. I'm sorry, a 2.0 engine in a car which is supposed to define GM's small car division, is pathetic.
The base model should be at least the 2.4 ecotec, with the higher models having perhaps a 2.7, or even a 3.4. Yeah, I know, it will be supercharged. Who cares. It's still going to be severely lacking.
I hope you all realize what you might be getting into when you purchase a Cobalt. Just remember, it is NOT a Cavalier. <br>
<br>
<br>
<a href="http://www.leghumper.com">
<img src="http://www3.sympatico.ca/shaner66/LHdotcom.jpg"></a>
Created by Beavis from LegHumper.com
Click on sig to visit LH.com
....Well I like it... <br>
Banned from J-IRC since April 03'
1 year and going strong
Moderator @ www.ClubCav.com
well SHaner if you dont like the Cobalt, then dont buy one and stop crying about it <br>
Im a Xbox 360 fanboy...and damn proud of it!!
Cobalt may not be for everyone, but seriously, folks...if everyone here made decisions about what car to own based purely upon 'tuner' aspirations of the ultimate platform, this site would not exist at all. Yet, many of you chose a J over such other 'more optimal' vehicles, so there is apparently much more to the psychology of all this than such simply distilled choices. To many of us, there is a certain allure in choosing the 'ugly duckling' underdog and making it a non-conformist's delight.
That's the spirit I would like to see continue forward with Cobalt. Rest assured, it's a player, even against Asian vehicles. With the Ecotec engine so dominant in drag racing right now, it's even showing some distinct advantages!
<br>
Bill Hahn Jr.
Hahn RaceCraft
World's Quickest and Fastest Street J-Bodies
Turbocharging GM FWD's since 1988
www.turbosystem.com
ecotec fanboys are starting to get annoying. . . its a decent engine, nothing more. BUt to me the colbalt has the rear end of a neon with the front end of a 04 cavalier. I like the one with the 2.7L, the LS or something, 170 stock HP. The 2.0 Supercharged and thats the SS? why not make the 2.7L super charged and call it the SS? Ill wait till the car is out beforei make any judgements on it. <br>
2006 Black Cobalt SS Supercharged G85
13.91@102.77
Shaner wrote:You guys are loyal to the dam thing because of the Cavalier, but it's not the same car!
I'm not loyal to the car, I am loyal to GM. I have been modifying GM vehicles for over 5 years and have only had 1 major issue. GM has supported me, and I continue to support them. It was fun while it was the under dog, but now GM is gaining momentum and taking steps in the right direction. Remember, change doesn't happen over night.
Shaner wrote:Many people on here seem to think that GM has listened to you
Actually they have. And in fact, the design team that worked on the Cobalt had several pictures of some of the cars from this site that they used to try and help influence design.
Shaner wrote:I'm sorry, a 2.0 engine in a car which is supposed to define GM's small car division, is pathetic.
The base model is the 2.2 that you see in the J-Body's now, not the 2.0. The 2.0 is the Supercharged version found in the SS. Then there is the 2.4 as an option as well.
I think all the nay sayers should step back and take a look at what has changed with GM over the past few years. What was one of the biggest things we all said we wanted? Factory support from GM. Well, now look at all the performance parts available from GM for the Eco. GM is also producing the TurboSport and American tuner body kits we all said we wanted. Sounds like they are listening to me. Again, change doesn't happen over night. It takes time to develop parts, test them and set up manufacturing. Then lets not even get into what it takes to get a part certified in California...
Is the Cobalt the end all best sport compact, probably not. But I can't wait to get my hands on one or two. Have an all out show stopper as well as one to eat up the track. I do not pray to any GM gods or anything of the sort, but I do look forward to seeing what the new Cobalt has to offer.
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__________________________________________________________________
<i>Performance cars do not win car shows and show cars do not win races.
It's up to you to decide which you'd rather win.</i>
<img src="http://www.civilier.com/files/jbosig.jpg">
I think Ian Lacey said it best so far <br>
LE61T PTE6262 Powered 
^^^ I agree...
I also agree with the, I will wait til it comes out comment
<br>
So far Ian has hit the nail on the head, but the other thing people have to think about is that GM isn't in the market just to sell to us. They had to produce a reliable, quality car that could appeal to a family just as well as it could appeal the tuner market. And as far as I'm concerned, I don't think they could've done any better balancing the two. Like most people, I'm waiting to pass final jugdement when it comes out and I can actually sit in one and drive it. By for crying out loud, in the last couple years, GM has produced a better engine, better support for our market, more concepts and future ideas, and all in all began a complete revamp of their whole line up. I think that some people are just aiming too high. I think we're on the right track.
Erik
You guys also gotta remember for all those wanting to boost the 2.4l Eco...The 2.4l Crank has a bigger 'throw' and under boost pressure is likley to throw a rod or 2 or 3...And the bigger the stroke of the motor the slower it revs up. Yes it makes more horsepower but its also more down low and cant rev as high. The 2.0 should rev very high atleast around 9000 RPMs if tuned right with the right Cams, timing etc etc while still remaining reliable...while the 2.4l will be around 6200 true redline and is more better for a N/A applications. <br>
Banned from J-IRC since April 03'
1 year and going strong
Moderator @ www.ClubCav.com
Shaner wrote:I don't understand why everyone is so obsessed with the Cobalt.
You guys are loyal to the dam thing because of the Cavalier, but it's not the same car!
Yes, the Cobalt is a far superior car to the Cavalier, but it should be, it's a brand new design. The Cavalier is what, 15-20 years old? If the Cobalt wasn't far superior to the Cavalier, there would be something seriously wrong.
But, forget about comparing it to the Cavalier. Compare it to other new cars. What does the Cobalt have going for it that makes it so special? In fact, what goes GM have going for it right now in it's small car division? Nothing.
Many people on here seem to think that GM has listened to you, and has produced a car in which has a strong foundation and will be easily modded, but that's not the case.
GM has produced another performance-lacking family car. Sedan or coupe, doesn't matter, it is nothing more than a family car. GM is not targetting "tuners" with the Cobalt. GM doesn't give a monkeys crap about tuners.
There's going to be so many disappointed people on here when they purchase the Cobalt. Not only will it be slow as balls, there will be NO aftermarket parts available. I'm sorry, a 2.0 engine in a car which is supposed to define GM's small car division, is pathetic.
The base model should be at least the 2.4 ecotec, with the higher models having perhaps a 2.7, or even a 3.4. Yeah, I know, it will be supercharged. Who cares. It's still going to be severely lacking.
I hope you all realize what you might be getting into when you purchase a Cobalt. Just remember, it is NOT a Cavalier.
You sir are a tool... judging a vehicle solely on the engine displacement.... the Honda S2000 is a 2.0L and it will kick any J or Delta body's @!#$ (stock that is). Have you seen the gas prices lately?
Something is lacking here.. but it ain't in the car. <br>
<br><br><a href="http://www.j-body.org/members/jlenko/cars/3/"><img src="http://members.shaw.ca/johnz24/images/nov30sig.jpg"></a>
i am glad GM is taking the next step sorta. GM is slow to come out with stuff, but they take their time and make sure it is right.
It wont be no SRT 4, but it is next in line. I am not seeing HONDA/NISSAN stepping up to the plate.
I agree with IAN also. I will keep me eye on this car, hell maybe in few years i might look into the cobalt SS.
<br>
Bill Hahn Jr. wrote:It's great site, no doubt...but it doesn't address the bulk of the J-body enthusiast base, which are non-Ecotec. I'd hate to see division among the ranks based on this factor alone.
Though I can see your point, the decision has already been made. In order to not alienate the existing (and future, after all, used J's will be around for many many years), this site will remain a j-body only site.
http://www.ecotecpower.com was created to address the future, particularly the Delta platform, and GM's new global 4 cylinder. If you noticed, both this site and that site are "A GM Enthusiast Network Member". This is meant to be more then just a tag line in the header. Much more integration is planned between this site and the other sites. Although they will be separate and distinct sites, there will be a close tie between them. For example - register on one site, and you can visit all and be registered there too.
John Lenko wrote:You sir are a tool... judging a vehicle solely on the engine displacement.... the Honda S2000 is a 2.0L and it will kick any J or Delta body's @!#$ (stock that is).
I second, and provide another example... tell me what the displacement is of the Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution VIII? Thankyoushutupandsitdown.
<br>
"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about
the former." - Albert Einstein
dave strikes again
Displacement means absolutely nothing now that F/I is in full swing on many production cars
<br>
Dave wrote: Though I can see your point, the decision has already been made. In order to not alienate the existing (and future, after all, used J's will be around for many many years), this site will remain a j-body only site.
Must be a "blue moon" out because for once I 'll back up Dave on this one. ^^^
Bill Hahn Jr wrote: the Cobalt is a much improved vehicle in many ways as compared to Cavalier. This is very encouraging...Chevy is currently in the midst of a major renaissance that goes way past marketing hype. The number of new models, and intense dedication to overall technological improvement is unprecedented...we are witnessing the ultimate fruits of the Lutz era. When the world's largest automaker get a notion to reinvent itself, it can bring some mighty strong resources to bear.
Then, the question of Saturn comes into focus. It's hard to include the Cobalt and exclude its sister Delta car. The strongest, most effective voice is always the most unified one. To unite all GM compacts under one umbrella would be a magnificient, and likely arduous, goal, but it may be the most effective route. And of course, let's not forget the upcoming Solstice, and any other vehicles (likely!) that will spring from its platform.
The Cobalt should have been the 1995 Cavalier, YES!!!! thats how dated it is!!!
Look at its hard ware, it is not ground breaking. The only improvement it has is, that it meets 2007 crash standards and loaded with sound insulation, that is all.
For god sakes, the interior in the Cobalt (4-door) is smaller then the J (4-door) . Infact the Cobalt interior is as small as a Jetta, That is freaking small.
GM's Epsilon platform is an improvement from the N-bodies. Sigma is showing great efforts with RWD. Theta, is showing it's potential with Equinox.
And Kappa which Solstice is going to be, not a Delta, has the right idea: RWD with IRS and wide capable track.
The Delta chassis is the only one that does not hide it's cost cutting features from all of GM's new platforms.
This Cobalt has 20th century technology, with a 21st century price. GM does not understand small cars.
<br>
>>>For Sale? Clicky!<<<
-----The orginal Mr.Goodwrench on the JBO since 11/99-----
Shaner wrote:I don't understand why everyone is so obsessed with the Cobalt.
You guys are loyal to the dam thing because of the Cavalier, but it's not the same car!
Yes, the Cobalt is a far superior car to the Cavalier, but it should be, it's a brand new design. The Cavalier is what, 15-20 years old? If the Cobalt wasn't far superior to the Cavalier, there would be something seriously wrong.
But, forget about comparing it to the Cavalier. Compare it to other new cars. What does the Cobalt have going for it that makes it so special? In fact, what goes GM have going for it right now in it's small car division? Nothing.
Many people on here seem to think that GM has listened to you, and has produced a car in which has a strong foundation and will be easily modded, but that's not the case.
GM has produced another performance-lacking family car. Sedan or coupe, doesn't matter, it is nothing more than a family car. GM is not targetting "tuners" with the Cobalt. GM doesn't give a monkeys crap about tuners.
There's going to be so many disappointed people on here when they purchase the Cobalt. Not only will it be slow as balls, there will be NO aftermarket parts available. I'm sorry, a 2.0 engine in a car which is supposed to define GM's small car division, is pathetic.
The base model should be at least the 2.4 ecotec, with the higher models having perhaps a 2.7, or even a 3.4. Yeah, I know, it will be supercharged. Who cares. It's still going to be severely lacking.
I hope you all realize what you might be getting into when you purchase a Cobalt. Just remember, it is NOT a Cavalier.
You know nothing.. GM is supporting us. I know everyone wants a car that will come out of the box beating a SRT4. Well that is not going to happen. Dodge built a heck of a car in that!!!! You say the special modles should have a 2.7 or a 3.4, well a 3.4 would be a V6, and then your now in a different class, no longer against civics, and focus and neons, but the V6 honda's thenGM does not have a sport compact 4 banger. It needs to stay a 4 banger. I have seen the Cobalt in person, great looking car, needs some revisions on the interior, but lloks to be a great platform!!!!! So it can come with a 2.0 supercharged motor, running low 15's, you say it should be quicker. Most GST's stock run about the same. If you know anything about boost you know it does not take much to make a factory boosted car a lot faster!!!!
Onto the real subjuect I agree we need to keep this forum together, and include the new GM family to it!!!!!! This site and group of people have helped get us what GM is doing for us now!!! <br>
FU Tuning
The small car doesn't need an option of 3.4. It defeats the purpose of the small car. With gasoline prices skyrocketing, the trend is going to be heading towards less displacement. GM is staying with that. If you want a 3.4, don't get a Cobalt. If you want a small car a little more sporty than a Aveo, get a Cobalt. <br>
<img src="http://www.j-body.org/registry/sunfire41/personal_pic.jpg">
Dave wrote:Bill Hahn Jr. wrote:It's great site, no doubt...but it doesn't address the bulk of the J-body enthusiast base, which are non-Ecotec. I'd hate to see division among the ranks based on this factor alone.
Though I can see your point, the decision has already been made. In order to not alienate the existing (and future, after all, used J's will be around for many many years), this site will remain a j-body only site.
was created to address the future, particularly the Delta platform, and GM's new global 4 cylinder. If you noticed, both this site and that site are "A GM Enthusiast Network Member". This is meant to be more then just a tag line in the header. Much more integration is planned between this site and the other sites. Although they will be separate and distinct sites, there will be a close tie between them. For example - register on one site, and you can visit all and be registered there too.
John Lenko wrote:You sir are a tool... judging a vehicle solely on the engine displacement.... the Honda S2000 is a 2.0L and it will kick any J or Delta body's @!#$ (stock that is).
I second, and provide another example... tell me what the displacement is of the Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution VIII? Thankyoushutupandsitdown.
I totally disagree with this decision. I know we are going to lose people to the Cobalt (I will always have a J, not to say i will not have both). I would hate to think we have people who know there stuff have to go over the the ecotec site, and not be here to help us when we needs it. We should all be able to come to the same site and help each other. <br>
FU Tuning
As a 2.4L J-car owner.... the new EcotecPower site is not one I will likely visit.... due to two reasons:
1. My car is not ecotec powered
2. I don't have a Cobalt (which IS Ecotec powered).
My car has very little in common with the new Cobalt and delta-platform vehicles... the only thing I guess is that one is replacing the other.
I wish we could stop the fighting that continues on JBO... between 2.2 and 2.4 and now 2.2eco owners... but seriosuly, there will be too much fighting between J's and delta's if it was one site...
besides... the cavalier really isn't being 'replaced' by the Cobalt anyways... it might be replacing ONE spot in the line up, but in case you haven't noticed, the Aveo is the new entry-level car... no longer the Cavalier. And doesn't the Cobalt fill the gap between the Aveo and the Malibu?
...j <br>
<br><br><a href="http://www.j-body.org/members/jlenko/cars/3/"><img src="http://members.shaw.ca/johnz24/images/nov30sig.jpg"></a>
i have nothing to add but to beg MR. Hahn for a turbo
for the love of god sponsor me.
<br>
My only concern is this, and I forwarn I have not done ALOT of research, so please correct me if I am mistaken.
Colbalt = ~20,000$ for a 205 hp Supercharged model, not due out for some time correct?
Example! Just an Example,
Neon SRT-4 = ~20,000$ for a 230hp Turbo model.
Now, the SRT-4 is out now, and the Cobalt SS model is not due out for some time if I recall correctly. I love GM cars but twenty thousand dollars for a car thats only going to put out 205hp with the supercharger seems steep. Sure you can change pulley's can get more out of it right off, but why spend $20000 for a cobalt already done, when you can buy a 2004 cavy for SIGNIFICANTLY less and pay GM to add a factory Supercharger. Sure if you truely like the looks then thats a different story. But they are asking for a significant amount of cash for a car thats not really fast off the lot in comparison. Secondly my knowlegde of Turbos vs.Superchargers is lacking, however after being a member here for almost 2 years I think you can say that majority of the people here with Ecotecs prefer turbos over superchargers. I just don't feel there is enough change in the Cobalt to support an upgrade to it. All in all, I would simply have the same car with a Supercharger if I upgraded. In this world you are going to gut the interior, change the wheels, put a kit on it. So its really not going to look that much different then now, BECAUSE we see the same kits over and over. Drift, blitz, some sort of J kit will come out, a WW Avenger, WW Bigmouth, WW Lip kit, and so on. I just don't understanf when you can buy a brand new cavy for 10-12k add a Supercharger and you are at 15k lets say. Same car for the most part.
***Again, I have not done significant research so I might be mistaken*** <br>
Good points all. Thanks Dave, for the clarification on the distribution of enthusiasts among the existing sites and the 'common thread' which ties them together.
I'd be the last one to promote lowered expectations for the Cobalt, but direct comparisons to the SRT-4 are tough. Diversity is the engine that drives 'niche' enthusiast segments such as J-body, and I am confident that search for non-conformity will still bring people to Cobalt, even with other choices available. The current market is a now-staggering mix of very cool cars, most of which we didn't have ANY of as recently as two years ago! Overall, the outlook is amazingly good for us four-banger fans.
Even within the tough competition fostered by this now very-hot market, the Cobalt comes up as a distinctive choice. Taking on the SRT-4 directly, immediately, may not have been on the short list of objectives, at least not just yet...as with any brand-new platform, the automakers rarely play the full available hand in the first year of production. Saving more for dessert in later model years is a good way to both market the car and continue its engineering process over time.
In the meantime, we do get three different versions in the first year (ambitious in and of itself!), and we also get that delicious Ecotec. Now, hang on...I mean no disrespect to LN2 and LD9 engine series cars when I say that. I can love one engine more without looking down on the others. Sure, my bias falls towards Ecotec, but for good reason...guys 'n' gals, take it from me: the Ecotec is THE segment leader in terms of contemporary technology and overal brute power capability. I've been deep into most all of the available engines in this segment, and Ecotec rules, hands-down. Sure, this will likely change in the future...some manufacturer will one-up GM, but at this juncture, the Ecotec rules much more than just the pro drags: no other large-production, affordable 'entry level' vehicle comes with such a sweet piece. This is an unprecedented and currently unmatched offering. Take advantage, and take heart, Domestic fans!
<br>
Bill Hahn Jr.
Hahn RaceCraft
World's Quickest and Fastest Street J-Bodies
Turbocharging GM FWD's since 1988
www.turbosystem.com
