With all the new news on these black boxes in new cars, to record your records of what you do or where the location of your car is; I have been getting very outraged by all of this...
I was just reading an article in "Automotive Design & Production" Page 29:
"Big Brother issues not with standing, just what are the engineering and cost consequences of the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration's recent proposal requiring the installation of event data recorders (EDRs) in ALL vehicles?"
Scott Morell (Head Engineering manager for VDO Automotive) said." a lot of the hardware and software needed are already in place in the form of electronic control units for air bag modules....the increasing sophistication and interconnection of vehicle electronics have made the modules de facto EDRs.
He also adds that, "...the air bag module can now access info. from sensors throughout a vehicle (e.g., steering wheel angle, brake application force, and throttle position.), and with the built in accelerometers, the modules can record pre- & post-crash data.
Ford Mustang, Chevy Vette, and a list of many other cars already has these devices in-planted in them. And with the release that GM will have On-star in all their vehicles by 2010 or something.
I just want to revolt, or start a revolution or something. Doesn't anybody think that this is an invasion of privacy. And am I the only one that wants to be, the only %@#$!% that knows what i am doing and where i am at. The wrong people could start tracking you a long side the government, that already can if they feel they have a reason to.
End Rant.................................................
Some related reading material:
Clicky 1
Clicky 2
PRND321 Till I DIE
Old Motor: 160whp & 152ft/lbs, 1/4 Mile 15.4 @88.2
M45 + LD9 + 4T40-E, GO GO GO
It's going to get even better...
Quote:
The Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) seems bent on becoming the country’s most intrusive government agency, a distinction most agree is currently held by the Internal Revenue Service.
In the name of reducing auto emissions, EPA is said to be “improving” the on-board pollution control system it requires under the hoods of American vehicles. While unlikely to improve air quality, the new Big Brother devices will make it much easier for EPA to know who’s driving what vehicles, and where they’re going.
The Little Black Box . . .
The heart of EPA’s on-board pollution control system is a collection of sensors and computers called OBD2 (OBD1 if your car is more than a couple years old). It senses a wide variety of engine problems that can result in the emission of pollutants such as ozone. When an OBD senses that a vehicle’s engine has developed a pollution-generating defect, it turns on a warning light that instructs the driver to have the vehicle repaired.
The OBD does not, however, tell the driver what is wrong. Only a qualified mechanic, with a scanning device that can be connected to the vehicle’s computer (for an average charge of between $50 and $60), can make that determination. Often--how often no one at EPA knows--the OBD “senses” a problem when none exists.
Though OBD devices have been installed in cars for years, at an average cost of $300 per vehicle, EPA has never conducted a real-world study of their reliability. According to Ed Gardetto of the EPA’s Emissions Program Group, the agency only recently began a two-year study of 200 vehicles to determine how well OBD2 devices function in detecting pollution-causing defects.
Bob Brooks, editor of Ward’s Engine Update, says the study might not be necessary “if EPA had a better relationship with the repair industry.” “The repair trade could tell EPA most of what it what it needs to know at little cost,” he adds.
. . . That Could Become a Spy
What may replace OBD2 is, naturally, OBD3. EPA officials flatly state they are not working on such a device, nor are they interested in doing so. Semantically, the “not working on” is correct. OBD3 is being developed by the California Air Resources Board (CARB), which has already let a contract for the device’s preliminary development. That said, sources at EPA acknowledge they are “following California’s development of OBD3.”
When asked, both EPA and CARB officials cited only one difference between OBD3 and the unproven OBD2: the former includes a transponder--a tiny radio transmitter that relays emissions information about your vehicle, including its Vehicle Identification Number (VIN), to remote receiving stations.
The purpose of OBD3, according to CARB’s Allan Lyons, is to reduce the number of costly vehicle emissions tests. In California, for example, every vehicle is tested for emissions every two years. Over 75 percent pass the test. Had it been known in advance that their pollution emissions were within permissible limits, those cars would not have had to be tested.
With OBD3 transponders transmitting emissions data to remote sensing stations, government officials would always know which vehicles are emitting an excess of pollutants and which are not.
Sounds good . . . except that OBD3 is identical, in all respects but the transponder, to OBD2--a system about which many questions remain unanswered. Moreover, OBD3 positively identifies every vehicle and can easily have sensors added to it to determine your vehicle’s speed and location. While all this sounds a little paranoid, even Lyons admits there are Big Brother concerns. “You can’t even discuss the subject without the issue of Big Brother coming up,” he acknowledges.
The Testing Mess
Paranoia aside, OBD3 may be nothing worse than simply more of a bad, or at least unproven, technology. But there seems to be little doubt that EPA’s current program of emission testing and “mandatory” repair is seriously flawed.
Testing and repair programs are required in many geographic areas out of compliance with EPA air-quality standards for ozone, carbon monoxide, and other gases. Those so-called “nonattainment” areas are primarily, though not exclusively, metropolitan areas.
Vehicle emissions testing, like OBD technology, has been with us for years, yet EPA has never studied whether vehicles in a “test and repair area” are less polluting than vehicles in other parts of the country to a degree that would justify the program’s cost. There are many reasons to believe that the test and repair program has little impact on vehicle emissions.
Permissible emission levels are set so high that many vehicles pass even though they are emitting a great deal more pollution than they would if properly maintained. “Old technology” vehicles--those built prior to today’s sophisticated pollution-control devices--are permitted to emit up to 900 parts per million of hydrocarbons, and new cars are permitted to emit up to 220 ppm. But emissions tests have shown that a well-maintained 1971 automobile can emit less than 30 ppm. Many drivers whose automobiles pass emissions test are led to believe their vehicles are non-polluting, when in fact they could be polluting much less (and burning fuel more efficiently) if they were even better maintained.
Equally deceiving is the notion that owners repair all vehicles that fail emissions tests. In fact, repairs are often avoided, both illegally and legally. Automobile owners in many states are able to illegally avoid repairs because the states have very poorly functioning procedures for correlating test failures and repairs with vehicle licensing. Those states unknowingly relicense polluting cars, putting them right back on the road.
Increasingly, though, polluting vehicles go unrepaired legally because of EPA policies. If a vehicle costs more than $450 to repair in such a way as to meet EPA standards, it gets a waiver--it can be legally driven without being repaired. A study conducted in 1994 by Sun Oil Company found that engines had become so complex that 60 percent of those failing emissions tests could not be fully repaired for $450. Moreover, the cost of repairs has increased dramatically in the last four years, primarily because of increased engine complexity brought on by tighter EPA limits on new car emissions.
A second problem caused by increased engine complexity, which results in higher new car prices, is a dramatic increase in older vehicles on the road. Ward’s Auto World has estimated that the number of cars ten years old or older on the nation’s roads increased from 10 million in 1975 to over 50 million in 1996 (trucks push the total to 80 million). On average, those older vehicles emit more pollutants than their newer counterparts. They also tend to be owned by persons of lower income. In California, where air-quality problems are legendary, low-income residents are allowed to take up to two years to make needed repairs.
The Maintenance Solution
A relatively simple solution to the upward spiral of costs, and its attendant negative effect on vehicle emissions, seems readily available. Unfortunately, it is a solution EPA is unlikely to promote.
“A good case can be made for calling a halt to complexity, which has counter-productive aspects, and focus instead on durability, maintainability and serviceability,” says Ward’s Brooks. “The underlying problem is that the public is deceived by regulators into thinking the answer to the pollution problem is tighter emissions standards applied to new vehicles.”
To prove his point, Brooks proudly points to the test results for his wife’s 1971 MG. The car continues to emit only about 5 percent of the hydrocarbons EPA standards allow for new, current-technology cars--or at least it did, before EPA-mandated reformulated gas came into use, pushing the MG’s hydrocarbon emissions to about half new-technology car limits
http://www.heartland.org/Article.cfm?artId=13847
Beauty is in the eye of the beer holder.
RoboGeek wrote:more even..
Quote:
Enter Orwell.
OBD3 is an interactive system. But it doesn't interact with the driver, at least not directly. OBD3 equips your new car with a radio transmitter. When a fault is detected, a signal is beamed to your friendly local Department of Motor Vehicles office, alerting them that you are now in violation of the Federal Clean Air Act. Unless you rectify the problem, and pronto, expect a summons in the mail.
But the system doesn't stop there. OBD3 is integrated into the vehicles various computer systems, meaning that it has access to every piece of data flowing through your car. Vehicle speed for example. Or your exact location via GPS. Some cars even have sensors in the seat to detect the number of occupants.
This is all supposition, but let's say that a bored police officer punches in your number, and determines via GPS that you are in a 45mph zone. He then queries your OBD3 system to learn that you are traveling at 58 miles per hour. It's a simple matter to signal the engine management computer to gradual slow to a halt, whereby the officer can drop by and issue you a ticket at his leisure.
Impossible? Of the 255 data addresses available to OBD3, only 6 have been allocated. What exactly does the Fed have in mind for the rest?
Isn't that just nice. Now that is some @!#$ right there. This is how i feel about all of this government crap that needs not be there.
PRND321 Till I DIE
Old Motor: 160whp & 152ft/lbs, 1/4 Mile 15.4 @88.2
M45 + LD9 + 4T40-E, GO GO GO
The gov't's been trying to get OBDIII system in cars for a few years now but the public really doesn't want it. So far no president(Clinton and Bush) has had the balls to allow the installation of the OBDIII system in vehicles because it could be political suicide.
Quote:
“The underlying problem is that the public is deceived by regulators into thinking the answer to the pollution problem is tighter emissions standards applied to new vehicles.”
BINGO! It's a known fact that all the vehicles on the road only cause a small percentage of the total pollution problem in America. Who do you think is the major pollution problem? Big Industries, esp. since the EPA allows them to buy junk or old cars to crush them to get pollution points to use to supposedly make up for the pollution their plants cause and whatever points they don't use they sell to other corporations.
hmm........guess im sticking with my 03 cavy forever.....at least until i get my 69 charger
You'll never touch God's hand
You'll never taste God's breath
Because you'll never see the second coming
Life's too short to be focused on insanity
I've seen the ways of God
I'll take the devil any day
Hail Satan
(slayer, skeleton christ, 2006)
You do know that most cars made after 95 have a type of black box in them? You computer can tell someone what you speed was, airbag deployment, brake line pressure, steering position, G Reading at impact, ect. They only record every 2 or 3 seconds and on impact they record it.
As for OBD3... If you have a cell phone or use a credit card, the government can track you. So please. Second of all, privacy deduction would be political suicide. I don't see this becoming what you all are proposinf that I will become.
<img src="http://www.j-body.org/registry/americanred/deplysig.gif">
Idea= good
Actually doing it= bad
Anyone who drives around with the MIL on should be slapped for being stupid anyways, since its typically an easy fix to begin with. This system only gives the government the power to do the slapping. At least thats what it says on paper.... If anyone tries to say "Oh no, they won't be watching me all the time, only when my MIL comes on", they should be slapped too.
Just run a stand-alone.
<img src="http://www.sskinner.net/sig17.jpg">
yea ppl will always find a way around technology I mean look what we can do now with OB2
1989 Turbo Trans Am #82, 2007 Cobalt SS G85
Yeah, there's a "black box" in every third gen J-car... except it's usually silver
It records your speed, brake on/off, throttle position, etc.. all the time. If your airbags go off, or you have a 'near deployment' event (whatever that is), then it freezes the last 5 seconds before that event...
It's been used in court before to convict vehicle owners... hows that eh? Your own car putting you in jail.. heh.
...j
<a href="http://www.lenkorules.com/"><img src="http://s93165229.onlinehome.us/images/zm/sig/LRDCsig3.jpg"></a>
just the more reason to do some "customizing" (ripping out everyhting you can) to a new car.
LOL and kiss your airbags goodbye.. it's the same module. DERM in 1995, SDM from 96 up... controls airbags, listens to what the car is doing.
There's websites out there where you can buy tools to read the blown SDM... or send it in to be "downlaoded".
Here's a fun game to play... guess the accident! Go to a wrecker and pick out the most smashed up car you can. Grab the SDM from under the passenger seat, and send it (with $300 or whatever) to be 'downloaded' and see what ACTUALLY happened to make that car look so fabulous...
...j
<a href="http://www.lenkorules.com/"><img src="http://s93165229.onlinehome.us/images/zm/sig/LRDCsig3.jpg"></a>
Whats going to force this stuff is insurance companies. Imagine a system where a car gets stolen, or is in a pursuit and all the police have to do is push a button to stop it. No more multi million dollar lawsuits for accidental deaths from pursuits. Insurance companies will force it through in the interest of 'public safety'.
Rental car companies have already fined drivers for speeding..
http://www.drivers.com/article/428/
Quote:
A Connecticut man is suing ACME Rent-a-Car, a local rental company, after it used the GPS (Global Positioning System) in one of its cars to catch him speeding and then fined him $450 for speeding three times.
What in-car telematics systems are supposed to do and what they're used for might by quite different, it seems. ACME recently decided to equip its cars with GPS technology and uses tracking services from AirIQ to find stolen rental cars and charge customers for "dangerous" conduct, reports C/Net news.
Beauty is in the eye of the beer holder.
It's a Brave New World...sadly
Adrock, you rock so well
All the more reason I don't like taking my vehicles to the shop. I guess I will be keeping my OBD1 throttlebody truck for a long long time.
RoboGeek wrote:Rental car companies have already fined drivers for speeding.
That's F'd up. If I remember right he won the case against ACME. Thats why me and my wife are looking to buy a trip car this summer and since there's only one auto rental place in town that allows you to travel out of state w/o adding a bunch of fees.
John Lenko wrote:LOL and kiss your airbags goodbye.. it's the same module. DERM in 1995, SDM from 96 up... controls airbags, listens to what the car is doing.
There's websites out there where you can buy tools to read the blown SDM... or send it in to be "downlaoded".
Here's a fun game to play... guess the accident! Go to a wrecker and pick out the most smashed up car you can. Grab the SDM from under the passenger seat, and send it (with $300 or whatever) to be 'downloaded' and see what ACTUALLY happened to make that car look so fabulous...
...j
who needs airbags?
there is plenty i'd give up in my car to get rid of tech that's in interest of "public safety" (aka making money)
I remember a bunch of years ago (maybe 10 or so) one of the rental car companies had a systems recorder installed in their cars. It recorded your speed and location. When you turned the car in they slapped you with a fine for speeding and such. Didn't last too long though as anybody driving the speed limit these days is a hazard. I remember it caused quite q stir in the press. Now just think, if'n they could do it then why not try to do it again? Insurance compsnies would just love to get their hands on info like that just to keep from paying out a claim.
Blind Julius
<img src="http://registry.gmenthusiast.com/images/blindjulius/personal_pic.jpg" width=180 height=165>
"Oh! My My!" Splat . . . "Damn Squirrel ! ! !"
Simple solution. Move the radio transponder to somewhere for your convience, then rig up an ignition modual running to a dummy spark plug right next to it. The massive RFI would render the transponder totally useless.
Or, just shave a section off your plug wires if you are brave, and say "I have no idea how that happened officer!"
Plenty of ways around it... i garuntee you that if any of my cars ever have that technology, it'll be disabled. I carry a tazer around with me for the sole purpose of frying my computer in the case of an at fault accident.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Maybe Im just pissed, pissed that my freinds are spineless, What else would you
call abandoment some night, when you're in a fight, and they could make things right?
Spineless. I miss some of my old friends, the ones who you could count on,
bet a huge amount on, the fact that they'd always have your back... Its like a kick in
the sack, just knowing, you've got nothing to fall back on. @!#$ this, Im done.
Interesting story in R&T Dec./04
Gasoline Taxes Based on Distance, Not GallonsQuote:
it is evidently intended as a supplement to — not a replacement of — the state's gasoline tax revenue.
Looks like my grandpa was right the day has come where they'll tax you by the mile. What's next the air we breathe? If you live in Oregon you might want to let your rep. know your feelings on this issue.
Link to whole article.
John Lenko wrote:Yeah, there's a "black box" in every third gen J-car... except it's usually silver
It records your speed, brake on/off, throttle position, etc.. all the time. If your airbags go off, or you have a 'near deployment' event (whatever that is), then it freezes the last 5 seconds before that event...
It's been used in court before to convict vehicle owners... hows that eh? Your own car putting you in jail.. heh.
...j
that would suck getting owned by your j
New sig in the works
lenko your talking about the little silver box below the passengers seat right? that bitch is long gone
OBD3 is an interactive system. But it doesn't interact with the driver, at least not directly. OBD3 equips your new car with a radio transmitter. When a fault is detected, a signal is beamed to your friendly local Department of Motor Vehicles office, alerting them that you are now in violation of the Federal Clean Air Act. Unless you rectify the problem, and pronto, expect a summons in the mail.
But the system doesn't stop there. OBD3 is integrated into the vehicles various computer systems, meaning that it has access to every piece of data flowing through your car. Vehicle speed for example. Or your exact location via GPS. Some cars even have sensors in the seat to detect the number of occupants.
This is all supposition, but let's say that a bored police officer punches in your number, and determines via GPS that you are in a 45mph zone. He then queries your OBD3 system to learn that you are traveling at 58 miles per hour. It's a simple matter to signal the engine management computer to gradual slow to a halt, whereby the officer can drop by and issue you a ticket at his leisure.
doesnt all of the above just not impinge on that little thing called " the right to be privacy and that god given right called "right of chioce", i think so"
OEM CAMBER/CASTER KIT 10 People for $210 <P>
GOT ECOTEC?
Well related, but not directly.
I was reading my "Evaluation Engineering Mag.", and came across a thing called a RFIDs. SO i read on. A RFID is an implantable radio frequency identification device. The editor goes on to explain about it, and how congress is trying to pass legislation to enable this little bastard in all American citizens, also have an I.D Bracelet to go around immigrants ankles. Sounds like house arrest to me.
Why in the hell do we need such a device, and can't it be easily abused by "wrong people." Don't know just pisses me off....
PRND321 Till I DIE
Old Motor: 160whp & 152ft/lbs, 1/4 Mile 15.4 @88.2
M45 + LD9 + 4T40-E, GO GO GO
