Thrice's Turbo TC/Q4 Hybrid Build - Performance Forum

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Thrice's Turbo TC/Q4 Hybrid Build
Wednesday, April 23, 2008 5:14 PM
Well in the spirit of all this hybrid stuff going on with short hand's TC/Q4 turbo build and PJ's experamental monster of an eco, i thought now would be an excellent time for hybrid fever to catch on .

Speaking of boost, just incase anyone has sheer curiosity, the turbo and stuff ain't goin on till this summer-ish. So it'll be all motor for a bit, sorry to get people's hopes up.

WARNING!!

There are going to be a hell of a lot of pictures so please get highspeed internet just because i say so...ok, wicked on to pictures!


Arrived today.......i @!#$ hate this box, i couldn't get the @!#$ out.....like at all.....Karo, you're a good man, but damn guy, that's just mean lol.


My custom order pistons straight from the desciple of car parts, Karo. .040" overbore 9:1 with valve pockets. I've calculated my final CR as about 9.9-10:1 with a .074" thick headgasket.

[\img]
And the Sexy dish it's self....mmmmm, ultra 94


Sand blasted, sanded and ready for primer/flat black engine paint


All the parts for my 2.3L Oil Pump Conversion (i realise the pick-up brace isn't there, i'm waiting on the dealership for it)


My TTR Upper and Lower Motor mounts


My 086 head i won off ebay. Came with a 3 angle valve job, new springs/clips/retainers/valves. It's too bad i'll be getting rid of some of that for bronze valves guides and SS OEM size valves.


HO intake, it still needs a lot more work before primer/flat black


Eagle Rods.....so purdy


All the old crap from when the block was ripped apart. crank is being sent off for balencing as soon as i swap the gears on it for the oil pump conversion.

and while the power is being built, the sound shall prevail




and my main motivation for building my first 13 second car.....any guesses at what it is???


Obvisouly i have many more pictures, just not all with me so as i gather parts and make more headway towards my goal (300whp) I'll post them up.



Re: Thrice's Turbo TC/Q4 Hybrid Build
Wednesday, April 23, 2008 5:56 PM
Cool to see others doing hybrid builds, what cams and turbo are you going to run and what whp/wtq are you shooting for?
Re: Thrice's Turbo TC/Q4 Hybrid Build
Wednesday, April 23, 2008 6:29 PM
Hybrid is the way to go this summer

lookin good!





Re: Thrice's Turbo TC/Q4 Hybrid Build
Wednesday, April 23, 2008 6:31 PM
We should get a nick name... lol.. The Hybrid 3 ? rofl.



My Cav
I give up...
i'm buying a VW those people love trees, so they should love eachother too... "Andy"
Re: Thrice's Turbo TC/Q4 Hybrid Build
Wednesday, April 23, 2008 7:21 PM
Hahaha I keep looking at my 086 head and trying to figure out how t make it all work together.


Re: Thrice's Turbo TC/Q4 Hybrid Build
Wednesday, April 23, 2008 7:41 PM
Yeah, I'll probably be going turbo this summer or fall as well...already have the turbo.
mitdr774 wrote:

Hahaha I keep looking at my 086 head and trying to figure out how t make it all work together.

1) drill a few holes
2) remove a few bolts
3) put head on block
4) repeat step '2' in reverse
Re: Thrice's Turbo TC/Q4 Hybrid Build
Wednesday, April 23, 2008 9:22 PM
Quote:

Cool to see others doing hybrid builds, what cams and turbo are you going to run and what whp/wtq are you shooting for?

Cams and turbo are both still undecided but i at least have them both down to 2 choices.

Cams: 1)HO or 2)95' intake HO exhaust

Turbo: I thought i had completely made up my mind like 2 months ago but damnitall if i didn't just go and look up compressor maps i'm debating on a GT3071R or the plain ol' Super 60 that everyone runs. I may even just run a Big 16G to start and if need be, slap on the GT


Re: Thrice's Turbo TC/Q4 Hybrid Build
Wednesday, April 23, 2008 9:35 PM
Quote:

We should get a nick name... lol.. The Hybrid 3 ? rofl.

oh god lol, it sounds like a boy band.....but then again...you know who digs boy bands...ladies.

but not just any ladies, no....ladies that you just want to assume are above the age of 18 lol.

Also, what are you doing about tuning your build? I read in your profile you currently have a tune from SweetnessGT (he's in London isn't he?) and i'm wondering if he's going to help you tune your hybrid as well. I'm as dumbfound as can be when it comes to ecu's so i'm gonna need all the help i can get.

Oh, and are you running an inline fuel pump or are you doing the Blazer swap?


Re: Thrice's Turbo TC/Q4 Hybrid Build
Wednesday, April 23, 2008 10:23 PM
Thrice . wrote:

Quote:

Cool to see others doing hybrid builds, what cams and turbo are you going to run and what whp/wtq are you shooting for?

Cams and turbo are both still undecided but i at least have them both down to 2 choices.

Cams: 1)HO or 2)95' intake HO exhaust

Turbo: I thought i had completely made up my mind like 2 months ago but damnitall if i didn't just go and look up compressor maps i'm debating on a GT3071R or the plain ol' Super 60 that everyone runs. I may even just run a Big 16G to start and if need be, slap on the GT

I still don't understand why people feel the need to pay top dollar for a low power turbo just because it has ball bearings. Because it spools faster? Waste of money on anything larger than a 1.3L in my opinion. If you are looking for a cheap turbo that makes plenty of power just to start off with, you should really look into diesel turbos. IHI makes a turbo for the GM 6.5L that is good for around 250-300 whp on a gasoline engine. Cummins Holsets are also a common choice, and I would have gotten an HY35, but I came across a brand new borg warner s200 for dirt cheap HERE. The S200 is good for around 300-400whp and it is a journal bearing turbo that has the extended tip technology which allows it to spool earlier like a ball bearing turbo. Only drawback is it has a 16 trim 1.15AR T4 footprint turbine housing, but the turbine housing can easily be swapped for a lower AR (anywhere from .48 to .83) T3 stainless steel Bullseyepower housing for ~$200-$250. Just a couple ideas for you to think about.
Re: Thrice's Turbo TC/Q4 Hybrid Build
Thursday, April 24, 2008 5:36 AM
Quote:

I still don't understand why people feel the need to pay top dollar for a low power turbo just because it has ball bearings. Because it spools faster? Waste of money on anything larger than a 1.3L in my opinion. If you are looking for a cheap turbo that makes plenty of power just to start off with, you should really look into diesel turbos. IHI makes a turbo for the GM 6.5L that is good for around 250-300 whp on a gasoline engine. Cummins Holsets are also a common choice, and I would have gotten an HY35, but I came across a brand new borg warner s200 for dirt cheap HERE. The S200 is good for around 300-400whp and it is a journal bearing turbo that has the extended tip technology which allows it to spool earlier like a ball bearing turbo. Only drawback is it has a 16 trim 1.15AR T4 footprint turbine housing, but the turbine housing can easily be swapped for a lower AR (anywhere from .48 to .83) T3 stainless steel Bullseyepower housing for ~$200-$250. Just a couple ideas for you to think about.

Actually that is a very compelling argument and you have my attention. You may have swayed me away from the $1,200 GT :p. Please, if you could, supply me with more information on using a diesel turbo. I can honestly say you've opened up a larger market for me


Re: Thrice's Turbo TC/Q4 Hybrid Build
Thursday, April 24, 2008 5:51 AM
Screw the build, I want to see more pics of the Mustang.



I'm cleaning out my garage!
Custom one-off digital gauge cluster for sale!



Re: Thrice's Turbo TC/Q4 Hybrid Build
Thursday, April 24, 2008 5:54 AM
Thrice . wrote:

Quote:

We should get a nick name... lol.. The Hybrid 3 ? rofl.

oh god lol, it sounds like a boy band.....but then again...you know who digs boy bands...ladies.

but not just any ladies, no....ladies that you just want to assume are above the age of 18 lol.

Also, what are you doing about tuning your build? I read in your profile you currently have a tune from SweetnessGT (he's in London isn't he?) and i'm wondering if he's going to help you tune your hybrid as well. I'm as dumbfound as can be when it comes to ecu's so i'm gonna need all the help i can get.

Oh, and are you running an inline fuel pump or are you doing the Blazer swap?


-Chris lives in Toronto. He has been on hiatus lately, so I hope he is still cool for tuning, if NOT ill have to kiss ravens ass... beyond that Ill buy HPT myself, and buy some books, and do a lot more reading.... .

-As for fuel, Ill be using the Blazer pump, it worked well for SpeedRacerZ, so it should be suffecient according to my calculations for this. IF not, then inline MSD here I come.

-AS for cams, if you really wanna take advantage of that high end power band, then go with the HO setup or even the w41 if you want something extreme. When I get home ill post again and give you more on my thoughts for cams in a turbo motor. (at work for the moment).



My Cav
I give up...
i'm buying a VW those people love trees, so they should love eachother too... "Andy"
Re: Thrice's Turbo TC/Q4 Hybrid Build
Thursday, April 24, 2008 6:44 AM
Quote:

Screw the build, I want to see more pics of the Mustang.


You got it! these are just really a teaser. I'll likely make a thread in the off topic forum dedicated to the stang with every picture we got of it. even what it DID look like when it was just a body lol.

This is my father's 68' Fastback Bullitt replica. I'll get more pictures when it's on the road again. fastest run so far was 13.8 when it was 15 degrees celcius outside, spun the tires in first, second, third and half of fourth lol. Absolutly beautiful in the sun though.









Re: Thrice's Turbo TC/Q4 Hybrid Build
Thursday, April 24, 2008 7:22 AM
Bullet FTW!!! Nice car, still a mustang though

With a turbo car you want a more economy grind of cam. Less duration to keep cylender presures up. HO or W41 cams have huge duration which is good for sucking but when you are force feeding air into it then it's just blowing out the exhaust and that's wasted energy. I'd do some reading on cam selection before you just slap in whatever cam. I'd recommend Street Turbocharging.



Re: Thrice's Turbo TC/Q4 Hybrid Build
Thursday, April 24, 2008 8:43 AM
Paul Yannacopoulos wrote:

Bullet FTW!!! Nice car, still a mustang though

With a turbo car you want a more economy grind of cam. Less duration to keep cylender presures up. HO or W41 cams have huge duration which is good for sucking but when you are force feeding air into it then it's just blowing out the exhaust and that's wasted energy. I'd do some reading on cam selection before you just slap in whatever cam. I'd recommend Street Turbocharging.

So are you going to tell 4G63 owners that their 274/274's are a waste of money? If you are talking about the book by Mark Warner, then I think you need to go back and reread it.

What you want to concern yourself with is cam overlap, not duration when choosing a turbo cam. A higher duration cam pushes max torque higher in the powerband, which in turn results in higher HP (assuming the rest of the engine is designed to breathe at those rpms). And as far as the HO cams are concerned, Skillz made about (if not) 300 whp on the 4T40e with only 8psi at the stock cam timings, something you aren't going to do with lower duration cams. W41 cams might not work great at stock cam timings, but advancing the intake and retarding the exhaust by a few degrees would certainly make it a great turbo cam as well (Rocket Parts even sold -5/+5 cam gears for this very reason).

Thrice . wrote:

Quote:

I still don't understand why people feel the need to pay top dollar for a low power turbo just because it has ball bearings. Because it spools faster? Waste of money on anything larger than a 1.3L in my opinion. If you are looking for a cheap turbo that makes plenty of power just to start off with, you should really look into diesel turbos. IHI makes a turbo for the GM 6.5L that is good for around 250-300 whp on a gasoline engine. Cummins Holsets are also a common choice, and I would have gotten an HY35, but I came across a brand new borg warner s200 for dirt cheap HERE. The S200 is good for around 300-400whp and it is a journal bearing turbo that has the extended tip technology which allows it to spool earlier like a ball bearing turbo. Only drawback is it has a 16 trim 1.15AR T4 footprint turbine housing, but the turbine housing can easily be swapped for a lower AR (anywhere from .48 to .83) T3 stainless steel Bullseyepower housing for ~$200-$250. Just a couple ideas for you to think about.

Actually that is a very compelling argument and you have my attention. You may have swayed me away from the $1,200 GT :p. Please, if you could, supply me with more information on using a diesel turbo. I can honestly say you've opened up a larger market for me

I don't know what else I can tell you. They're turbochargers. Fore Holsets, the HY35 uses a T3 housing, the HX35, H1C and H1E all use a divided T4 housing. The Holsets are also internally gated to something like 20-30psi, therefore, you would want to hold the wastegate shut (which is incredibly easy to do) and run an external wastegate. I believe the GM IHI turbo has the same problem. The Borg Warner/Switzer S200 is not internally gated, so you don't have to worry about that. Also, in general, diesel turbos tend to have their highest effeciency islands at slightly higher pressure ratios as well considering they are designed for diesels and not gasoline engines. But they still work great on gasoline engines anyways. Here is a dyno comparison of the S200 and a T67. The Bullseypower S200's however have a slightly larger compressor inducer than the one I have, so they will make a little more power, but it is still an S200. If you search you will find hundreds of posts on people dynoing diesel turbos on their cars.

What more would you like to know?
Re: Thrice's Turbo TC/Q4 Hybrid Build
Thursday, April 24, 2008 11:42 AM
So essentially you're saying all i'd have to do is get the S200 turbo, and swap the exhaust housing for the bullseye T3 .50 AR housing and i'm good to go? I'm looking for it to be fully spooled by 3,000 RPM, BUT no earlier since i still want to keep decent milage in the city.

I can't stress enough though that i'm new to boost and i'm tryin to catch upon my readings and what not. So i need to be spoon fed for a bit before i'm confident enough to mix and match parts to make my own turbo. Main reason i only looked at the GT and super 60 lol.


Re: Thrice's Turbo TC/Q4 Hybrid Build
Thursday, April 24, 2008 1:00 PM
I have to appologize, I said they have .48 to .83 AR housings, but I was just reciting off the top of my head. According to their website the only T3 sizes they have are 0.55, 0.70, 0.76 and 0.83. I don't think you will want a .50 AR housing anyways, as it is more likely to spool too quickly and put you to the left of the surge line. I'm personally going to a 0.70 T3 housing after I test the engine with the stock housing. I would prefer a divided T4 like the stock one, but the stock AR is too large for a low rpm small displacement engine, so I'm not expecting much out of it.

And yes, all you would need is the 16 Trim turbine housing of your choice, bolt it up and you would be good to go. If you're scared of replacing housings though, then you'd probably be better off with the IHI or Holset HY35 I described earlier as they both have t3 housings stock....but I'm not trying to persuade you or tell you what to do though. I'm just providing you with some proven alternatives to the norm. If you feel more comfortable with a super60 or gt series Garrett, then don't let me stop you.
Re: Thrice's Turbo TC/Q4 Hybrid Build
Thursday, April 24, 2008 1:59 PM
Oh don't worry, the only reason i looked at the GT series and super 60 was becuase it was the easiest solution and i'm a n00b to the ancient art of turbos, but that was 2 months ago when i was first only looking at pre-built setups. I'm feeling much more confident now then i was then and i'm willing to explore other options like build my own. I just needed that little bit of guidance that you have just given with the info of the S200 and such. I'm willing to take my chances and gain the experience from peicing my own together. Since you believe .50AR is too small i may go with a .70 or .76. Since my final CR before boost will be 9.9-10:1, the Borg Warner sounds like it would be the best suited turbo for my application.


Re: Thrice's Turbo TC/Q4 Hybrid Build
Thursday, April 24, 2008 3:45 PM
Ok, this ain't really an update, but i'm pleased to say i stopped by Scherer Pontiac GM and picked up .................


A BOX!!!!!

.
.
and in this box?

TA-DAAH!

so i now have everything, to bolt up the pump to the block, which makes me a happy guy.

oh, i also forgot to say i had my car lowered on monday with these puppies

Yeah, those ARE my winter tires in april/may.....feels good, sticks to corners like....well, @!#$, really.




ProKit + AGX = stealth...[insert devilish emoticon here]

It's only a 1.5" drop but should look TITS with some 18's in the K-Tune style



Re: Thrice's Turbo TC/Q4 Hybrid Build
Thursday, May 01, 2008 1:53 PM
Hey Whalesac, what do you think the appropriate sized intercooler would be to run 300whp with the Borg Warner S200 turbo? I'm looking at one on ebay that's made by CXMotorsports. It's 28" x 7" x 2.5", and says it supports 300-400hp.

Really my main question is should i trust this ebay intercooler or does it make a big enough difference to just go buy a johnnyracecar, or a spearco intercooler?

These are the specs by CXMotorSports:

Length - 28"
Length (Core) - 22"
Height - 7"
Thickness - 2.5"
Inlet - 2.5"
Outlet - 2.5"
Compress Air Flow Rate <600Cubic Feet/Min, Rated to 300-400 Max HP
Working Pressure - 25~30PSI
Pressure Drop - 2~5psi@35psi; 0.2~0.5psi@15psi
Hot Air Temperature - 32F~302F (0C~150C)
Material - 100% Aluminum
Design - Bar and Plate
Construction - Machine Cut and Stamped, Hand Welded
Finish - Polished
Net Weight - 11 lbs







Re: Thrice's Turbo TC/Q4 Hybrid Build
Thursday, May 01, 2008 2:46 PM
Thrice wrote:

Pressure Drop - 2~5psi@35psi; 0.2~0.5psi@15psi

That's one of the main things to look at with an eBay intercooler. Most are really only good if you intend to run under 20 psi (which would be the case for myself, and I assume for you as well). The other thing to worry about is cheap welds. If you get vaccum and/or boost leaks, there is a good chance that the cheap intercooler is the culprit. Personally, I will be going with an eBay intercooler similar to that, except with a thicker core.

Keep in mind also, that intercoolers are rated at crank horsepower....but 400 bhp will certainly fall within your goal of 300 whp, so it should be fine.

Re: Thrice's Turbo TC/Q4 Hybrid Build
Thursday, May 01, 2008 3:22 PM
Thanks for the info.

I was looking around in other forums and reading different info for SRT4's and DSM's and such, and started to wonder if i should consider using a 3" core instead of 2.5".

Is .5" really going to make that much of a difference when i kinda make up for it by having a 22" long core versus a 20" x 6" x 3" for example.

what are the Pros/Cons to having a thicker core, versus a longer core?


Re: Thrice's Turbo TC/Q4 Hybrid Build
Thursday, May 01, 2008 4:20 PM
Well, consider the 10 air passage bars in the intercooler you showed above....

2.5"W x 22"L x 2 (two sides for each bar) x 10bars = 1100 in^2
3"W x 20"L x 2 x 10bars= 1200 in^2


The longer core does make up for a little of the surface area, but in the end, the 3" will still provide better cooling. I will probably end up going with a 3.5" x 8" x 22" core like this one, but I haven't taken any measurements yet, so Im not sure.
Re: Thrice's Turbo TC/Q4 Hybrid Build
Thursday, May 01, 2008 4:30 PM
hmmm. I guess i'll be looking for a 3" then. Good thing i didn't click the buy now button lol. I tend to get trigger happy at times


Re: Thrice's Turbo TC/Q4 Hybrid Build
Thursday, May 01, 2008 4:41 PM
Well i found another one that's 27" x 10" x 3". but by time it gets to me, i'd have paid $250 or more with borkerage and whatnot. Personally i don't see it being worth that especially if it's only a hit or miss type of thing. i think i may just go with the 28 x 7 x 2.5 i don't plan on running more then 14.7 psi...ever lol, so i should be good.


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