Thrice's Turbo TC/Q4 Hybrid Build - Page 2 - Performance Forum

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Re: Thrice's Turbo TC/Q4 Hybrid Build
Thursday, May 01, 2008 6:26 PM
Thrice . wrote:

Well in the spirit of all this hybrid stuff going on with short hand's TC/Q4 turbo build and PJ's experamental monster of an eco, i thought now would be an excellent time for hybrid fever to catch on .

Speaking of boost, just incase anyone has sheer curiosity, the turbo and stuff ain't goin on till this summer-ish. So it'll be all motor for a bit, sorry to get people's hopes up.

WARNING!!

There are going to be a hell of a lot of pictures so please get highspeed internet just because i say so...ok, wicked on to pictures!


Arrived today.......i @!#$ hate this box, i couldn't get the @!#$ out.....like at all.....Karo, you're a good man, but damn guy, that's just mean lol.


My custom order pistons straight from the desciple of car parts, Karo. .040" overbore 9:1 with valve pockets. I've calculated my final CR as about 9.9-10:1 with a .074" thick headgasket.

[\img]
And the Sexy dish it's self....mmmmm, ultra 94


Sand blasted, sanded and ready for primer/flat black engine paint


All the parts for my 2.3L Oil Pump Conversion (i realise the pick-up brace isn't there, i'm waiting on the dealership for it)


My TTR Upper and Lower Motor mounts


My 086 head i won off ebay. Came with a 3 angle valve job, new springs/clips/retainers/valves. It's too bad i'll be getting rid of some of that for bronze valves guides and SS OEM size valves.


HO intake, it still needs a lot more work before primer/flat black


Eagle Rods.....so purdy


All the old crap from when the block was ripped apart. crank is being sent off for balencing as soon as i swap the gears on it for the oil pump conversion.

and while the power is being built, the sound shall prevail




and my main motivation for building my first 13 second car.....any guesses at what it is???


Obvisouly i have many more pictures, just not all with me so as i gather parts and make more headway towards my goal (300whp) I'll post them up.








if you put that engine in that car ill beat the tar out of you lol


THERE CAN BE ONLY ONE, i have already died once and im still here so lets just leave it on the track

Re: Thrice's Turbo TC/Q4 Hybrid Build
Thursday, May 01, 2008 7:24 PM
Thrice . wrote:

Thanks for the info.

I was looking around in other forums and reading different info for SRT4's and DSM's and such, and started to wonder if i should consider using a 3" core instead of 2.5".

Is .5" really going to make that much of a difference when i kinda make up for it by having a 22" long core versus a 20" x 6" x 3" for example.

what are the Pros/Cons to having a thicker core, versus a longer core?




PLEASE PLEASE do not just factor in the size of the core as your measure to what intercooler you should be using.

1. THE biggest factor = what type of construction is the core in the first place. A plate and shell core (typical E-bay garbage) OR you can buy an extruded tube core. A proper intercooler for he power you want to make. YOU should then also calculate the lag time that the intercooler will cause. You have to then look at how much the intercooler itself can cool down the incoming charge. This means you have to look at the density of the charge coming OUT of the intercooler, not just flow capability's. Thus Density and the total loss in boost pressure after the manifold ARE key.

SO first find some specs on the intercooler. then use this trusty formula


Original absolute temperature (incoming) / final absolute temperature (outgoing) - 1.

THEN you have to take a look at the loss of boost pressure due to the intercoolers presence. TO do this, look at the amount of boost being lost relative to when it is off and on. EASY enough.

So again ANOTHER handy formula.

Power loss from psi drop = 1 - 14.7 + (total boost pressure with intercooler in place) / 14.7 + (total boost pressure without the intercooler)

*This will then give you the power loss (roughly) from the intercooler.


SO take your answer from both those calculations, and weigh them against each other. THen and ONLY then can you figure out the perfect intercooler for the job.

AND this is just the beginning. I suggest reading a good book on intercooling to get the most out of it. OR stick to a good reputable brand. (JRC.com & Spearco being 2 that come to mind).



My Cav
I give up...
i'm buying a VW those people love trees, so they should love eachother too... "Andy"
Re: Thrice's Turbo TC/Q4 Hybrid Build
Thursday, May 01, 2008 9:35 PM
JRC's site doesn't work or i can't find it at all and google doesn't even show results linking to their site which i find rather odd. Spearco is a bit rich. Finding the proper one on their site was 800+ USD.

The one on eaby i'm looking at is extruded tube and plate. my dream intercooler is 25 x 7 x 3 but thats just the perfect size for the front of my car. No science behind it lol.

Short Hand, do you happen to have any preferred titles/authors of books that i should look up?


Re: Thrice's Turbo TC/Q4 Hybrid Build
Thursday, May 01, 2008 10:21 PM
Short Hand wrote:

Thrice . wrote:

Thanks for the info.

I was looking around in other forums and reading different info for SRT4's and DSM's and such, and started to wonder if i should consider using a 3" core instead of 2.5".

Is .5" really going to make that much of a difference when i kinda make up for it by having a 22" long core versus a 20" x 6" x 3" for example.

what are the Pros/Cons to having a thicker core, versus a longer core?




PLEASE PLEASE do not just factor in the size of the core as your measure to what intercooler you should be using.

1. THE biggest factor = what type of construction is the core in the first place. A plate and shell core (typical E-bay garbage) OR you can buy an extruded tube core. A proper intercooler for he power you want to make. YOU should then also calculate the lag time that the intercooler will cause. You have to then look at how much the intercooler itself can cool down the incoming charge. This means you have to look at the density of the charge coming OUT of the intercooler, not just flow capability's. Thus Density and the total loss in boost pressure after the manifold ARE key.

SO first find some specs on the intercooler. then use this trusty formula


Original absolute temperature (incoming) / final absolute temperature (outgoing) - 1.THEN you have to take a look at the loss of boost pressure due to the intercoolers presence. TO do this, look at the amount of boost being lost relative to when it is off and on. EASY enough.

So again ANOTHER handy formula.

Power loss from psi drop = 1 - 14.7 + (total boost pressure with intercooler in place) / 14.7 + (total boost pressure without the intercooler)

*This will then give you the power loss (roughly) from the intercooler.


SO take your answer from both those calculations, and weigh them against each other. THen and ONLY then can you figure out the perfect intercooler for the job.

AND this is just the beginning. I suggest reading a good book on intercooling to get the most out of it. OR stick to a good reputable brand. (JRC.com & Spearco being 2 that come to mind).


All True

....but how do you expect him to do any of that without actually owning the intercooler ? They list some useful information, such as pressure drop, which they claim to be ~0.2-0.5 psi at 15psi, which is perfectly acceptable. It's also "bar and plate" construction which is superior in many respects to a "tube and fin" design. Really, the only other useful information they leave out that concerns me is the fin density, which I admit is pretty important to know. For a 2.4L engine under 400whp though, cheapBay intercoolers are perfectly fine to use, keeping in mind the afforementioned problems to look out for which I already explained.


Whalesac wrote:

Thrice wrote:

Pressure Drop - 2~5psi@35psi; 0.2~0.5psi@15psi

That's one of the main things to look at with an eBay intercooler. Most are really only good if you intend to run under 20 psi (which would be the case for myself, and I assume for you as well). The other thing to worry about is cheap welds. If you get vaccum and/or boost leaks, there is a good chance that the cheap intercooler is the culprit. Personally, I will be going with an eBay intercooler similar to that, except with a thicker core.

Keep in mind also, that intercoolers are rated at crank horsepower....but 400 bhp will certainly fall within your goal of 300 whp, so it should be fine.

Re: Thrice's Turbo TC/Q4 Hybrid Build
Friday, May 02, 2008 6:46 AM
As much as i hate to admit it, this is a very good deal that would hurt for me to pass up. But if passing on this item is the best idea, then hell i'll get the spearco but not yet. I'm only looking at these ebay ones because of the price . So who wants to decide for me since i'm noobalishice


Re: Thrice's Turbo TC/Q4 Hybrid Build
Friday, May 02, 2008 9:33 AM
well, i'm ordering THIS one that i found. it's a gem i must say. 25" x 12" x 3" and $58 USD with $75 shipping to Canada.....yay


Re: Thrice's Turbo TC/Q4 Hybrid Build
Saturday, May 03, 2008 1:58 AM
Thrice . wrote:

JRC's site doesn't work or i can't find it at all and google doesn't even show results linking to their site which i find rather odd. Spearco is a bit rich. Finding the proper one on their site was 800+ USD.

The one on eaby i'm looking at is extruded tube and plate. my dream intercooler is 25 x 7 x 3 but thats just the perfect size for the front of my car. No science behind it lol.

Short Hand, do you happen to have any preferred titles/authors of books that i should look up?


"Maximium Boost" by Corky Bell is THE bible. & "Street Turbocharging: Design, Fabrication" by Mark Warner = the new testament of it .

Maximum boost IS rather old dating back to the early 90's ./.... BUT the theory in it is probably the best you can buy on paper. DO NOT let the math intimidate you.



My Cav
I give up...
i'm buying a VW those people love trees, so they should love eachother too... "Andy"
Re: Thrice's Turbo TC/Q4 Hybrid Build
Saturday, May 03, 2008 9:33 AM
ok, if a company doesn't accept Visa, they only accept money order, personal cheque, or paypal. Is that kind of a red flag for BS?


Re: Thrice's Turbo TC/Q4 Hybrid Build
Saturday, May 03, 2008 9:40 AM
^could be but maybe they just dont have merchant sevices....Give them my card and I'll set that up for them


GMR has got nothing on this
Re: Thrice's Turbo TC/Q4 Hybrid Build
Saturday, May 03, 2008 10:19 AM
Thrice . wrote:

ok, if a company doesn't accept Visa, they only accept money order, personal cheque, or paypal. Is that kind of a red flag for BS?

Paypal = Visa

I never give a company my credit card number unless I absolutely have to. I always use Paypal. It's free to buyers, so there is really no reason not to use it. I'ts more secure that way anyways, because A) You are using a 3rd party for funds transfer, so if there are problems, you are far more likely to get your money back and B) If it is a shady company, they don't have access to stealing your card information.
Re: Thrice's Turbo TC/Q4 Hybrid Build
Monday, May 05, 2008 9:24 PM
ohhhh Whalesac...you must hate me by now with all these questions.
But i found another Schwitzer turbo off a John Deere (hah) it's $100. Clicky
At first when i saw the compressor A/R being .35 i was worried this might be too small for my application. The exhaust A/R is .90
The only other BW/Schwitzer i'm finding on ebay is an older Schwitzer that is going for $25 but has some back and forth shaft play. I'm wondering how mutch a re-build kit would cost for it.
let me what you're thinkin'.



Re: Thrice's Turbo TC/Q4 Hybrid Build
Tuesday, May 06, 2008 9:31 AM
Ok, i found a site that lists all of the BW turbo serials. Then you can google those to whoever needs specs. CLICK


Re: Thrice's Turbo TC/Q4 Hybrid Build
Wednesday, May 07, 2008 9:46 AM
Many Borg Warner/Schwitzer turbochargers are used for industrial applications, such as John Deere or Caterpillar tractors and earth movers (my s200 is from a John Deere). Precision and Bullseye are the only two companies that I know of that actually sell BW turbos for performance applications.

Changing the Compressor AR on a turbocharger has little effect in changing the efficiency of the turbocharger, whereas the exhaust AR is VEERRRRYYY critical, so I don't see a real problem there. The problem I do see however is the size of the wheels on it. The compressor inducer is 42mm and the exhaust exducer is 53mm. My bet is this turbo won't do you much good over 250 whp in a gasoline engine, but I could very well be wrong (mainly because they don't give the compressor exducer or exhaust inducer sizes). Comparitively though, my s200 has a 51mm compressor inducer and 61.5mm exhaust exducer.
Re: Thrice's Turbo TC/Q4 Hybrid Build
Saturday, May 10, 2008 5:12 PM
Schwitzer 3LM it's got a compressor with a 52mm inducer and a 76mm exducer, while the turbine has a 66mm exducer and a 76mm inducer. The turbine housing is about a 1.05 a/r. Would the same Bullseye exhaust housing for the s200 fit this? If it does i'm deffinetly buying it


Re: Thrice's Turbo TC/Q4 Hybrid Build
Saturday, May 10, 2008 9:07 PM
That's very close to the s200's specs. I wish I could tell you that the housing would work, but that appears to be a 6 bolt exhaust housing to CHRA. The s200 is a 4-bolt... HOWEVER, that means it might share the same dimensions with a garrett exhuast housing, which means you could certainly get it in a .63 A/R. I would definately look into that if I were you.
Re: Thrice's Turbo TC/Q4 Hybrid Build
Saturday, May 10, 2008 10:22 PM
Any chance you could point me in the right direction of where to look for dimesional info for Garrett's? I've been looking on the Garrett website, looking at different exhaust housings and the GT3071R housing comes with a .63AR but i'm not exactly sure what to really be looking for when trying to match up a garrett to a schwitzer lol. What kinda trim should i be searching for. Thanks again for all the help man, you've got one wicked set of patience to be able to answer all of these questions.

I went and got a hold of Maximum Boost by Corky Bell so i'm learnin, but i'm just reading about preassure ratios right now.


Re: Thrice's Turbo TC/Q4 Hybrid Build
Sunday, May 11, 2008 1:55 AM
OR you could pick up a GT-K 500 and be VERY happy . In all honesty after hours and countless hours of research, the GT-K series of turbo's from Turbonetics are extremely well built, and can just make rediculous power. Spec for Spec THEY will out perform the same turbos class to class.



My Cav
I give up...
i'm buying a VW those people love trees, so they should love eachother too... "Andy"
Re: Thrice's Turbo TC/Q4 Hybrid Build
Sunday, May 11, 2008 4:36 PM
well the $1525 price tag on the GT-K 500 is hefty as hell. I'm not going for any record breaking speeds or dyno numbers that would make a 2jz owner weep. So spending close to 2 grand with shipping and tax is just ludacris. I'm not meaning to offend your suggestion, but it's a bit much for my street use. Deisel turbos seem to be perfect for my applicaiton because they are so efficiant and inexpensive and the fact you can pull them off a friggen john deere is just hilarious.

I mean even the GT-K 350 is $1395. If you want to spend that kinda cash for a street demon, more power to ya. I may switch to a Garrett GT series later on down the road, but for now a BW/Schwitzer is just perfect


Re: Thrice's Turbo TC/Q4 Hybrid Build
Sunday, May 11, 2008 5:57 PM
Well what I did was go on the SRT4 forum and see what those guys are using since they also have 2.4L engines and that led me to my choice of a Turbonetics 62-1 turbo with a 4" compressor inlet, 2.5" compressor outlet .70 a/r with a .81 a/r Q - trim t4 exhaust side which is good for 680 hp. My goals with my built hybrid is to make 500 whp.
Re: Thrice's Turbo TC/Q4 Hybrid Build
Sunday, May 11, 2008 7:06 PM
Thrice . wrote:

well the $1525 price tag on the GT-K 500 is hefty as hell. I'm not going for any record breaking speeds or dyno numbers that would make a 2jz owner weep. So spending close to 2 grand with shipping and tax is just ludacris. I'm not meaning to offend your suggestion, but it's a bit much for my street use. Deisel turbos seem to be perfect for my applicaiton because they are so efficiant and inexpensive and the fact you can pull them off a friggen john deere is just hilarious.

I mean even the GT-K 350 is $1395. If you want to spend that kinda cash for a street demon, more power to ya. I may switch to a Garrett GT series later on down the road, but for now a BW/Schwitzer is just perfect


Speed sadly Costs .



My Cav
I give up...
i'm buying a VW those people love trees, so they should love eachother too... "Andy"
Re: Thrice's Turbo TC/Q4 Hybrid Build
Sunday, May 11, 2008 9:49 PM
Oh i know speed costs, by paying $1600 for a turbo that gives more then i'll utilize....that's just asking for me to bend over and take it unsuspectingly.



Re: Thrice's Turbo TC/Q4 Hybrid Build
Thursday, May 15, 2008 11:10 AM
I found something that just wet my appitite. Garrett TA51


Re: Thrice's Turbo TC/Q4 Hybrid Build
Thursday, May 15, 2008 11:45 AM
Flow Map & Data good till about 330kw or 442bhp. cha-ching!..purchased unless, whalesac, you know something that i don't?


Re: Thrice's Turbo TC/Q4 Hybrid Build
Thursday, May 15, 2008 8:40 PM
Looks like it shall need a mighty rebuild, and on a Volvo/Garrett turbo like that $$$.



My Cav
I give up...
i'm buying a VW those people love trees, so they should love eachother too... "Andy"
Re: Thrice's Turbo TC/Q4 Hybrid Build
Thursday, May 15, 2008 10:44 PM
Exhaust housing would be getting swapped out for something a little more accomodating, and it's an older T series which i've been reading up on, and a re-build for this TA51 would be ass loads cheaper then a GT searies brand new, or a T51 SPL re-build. 5 years ago a rebuild for this large frame had cost around $450-$550. I'm sure i could get it rebuilt for around $300-$350 now. Alot of the RX-7 guys have used them (being one of the smaller turbos they've used) but the vast majority has moved on tot he new "fad" of DBB GT series.

I know this is COMPLETELY out of the blue, but has anyone heard from Karo lately?....I'm thinkin he's on vacation or something cuz i haven't heard back from him in a looong time since i inquired about 35mm lifters and ss valves for the 086 head......hmmm.....

Oh, and i have an update comming soon. I forgot to post, but the canadian postage service was nice enough to drop off some TTR goodies and i also have a mani spacer coming from Nukkinfutts's quad enthusiast's site quadper4mance.com


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