adjustable cam gears for ld9 - Page 5 - Performance Forum

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Re: adjustable cam gears for ld9
Tuesday, July 21, 2009 10:17 AM
WHITECAVY wrote:

Josh Id be interested in seeing your setup.


x2





Re: adjustable cam gears for ld9
Tuesday, July 21, 2009 11:51 AM
So far, on my current design I have a pad on the gear to emulate the factory SFI CPS pickup like a half moon with a heavy metal ingot balance opposite this half moon....this ingot will have magnetic properties which can be used for a hall effect sensor pickup to give a single tooth trigger setup for a standalone to run SFI. So, right now, these gears have the ability to fake the stock ECU into thinking the normal CPS pad is on the cams...and will also have a single tooth pickup opposite(metallic ingot balance) for a CPS trigger for a standalone ie: MS to run SFI. These gears will allow those planning on faking all the engine systems on the ECU without throwing codes. Right now they are +-5 degrees with 0-3-5 major ticks and 1-2-4 minor ticks. I wanted them to be 6 bolt but I think I will be headed towards a 4 bolt tension design. I'm still working on a possible more mechanical way of binding them using two sets of splined rings one ring with 3 degree resolution spline and the other with 2 degree resolution. Then by advancing the 3 deg. spline and retarding the 2 degree spline you would have 1 degree total advance...and so on...up to 5 degree total. I'm still trying to make it all fit but I know it is possible, just a matter of finding time. I wouldn't usually wait for something like this but with the PTO's these cars run off the cams....I'd really like to get a more mechanical bind going on.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edited Tuesday, July 21, 2009 11:52 AM

"Never argue with an idiot. They'll drag you down to their level, then beat you with experience!" -Anonymous
Re: adjustable cam gears for ld9
Tuesday, July 21, 2009 11:58 AM
Joshua Dearman wrote:

So far, on my current design I have a pad on the gear to emulate the factory SFI CPS pickup like a half moon with a heavy metal ingot balance opposite this half moon....this ingot will have magnetic properties which can be used for a hall effect sensor pickup to give a single tooth trigger setup for a standalone to run SFI. So, right now, these gears have the ability to fake the stock ECU into thinking the normal CPS pad is on the cams...and will also have a single tooth pickup opposite(metallic ingot balance) for a CPS trigger for a standalone ie: MS to run SFI. These gears will allow those planning on faking all the engine systems on the ECU without throwing codes. Right now they are +-5 degrees with 0-3-5 major ticks and 1-2-4 minor ticks. I wanted them to be 6 bolt but I think I will be headed towards a 4 bolt tension design. I'm still working on a possible more mechanical way of binding them using two sets of splined rings one ring with 3 degree resolution spline and the other with 2 degree resolution. Then by advancing the 3 deg. spline and retarding the 2 degree spline you would have 1 degree total advance...and so on...up to 5 degree total. I'm still trying to make it all fit but I know it is possible, just a matter of finding time. I wouldn't usually wait for something like this but with the PTO's these cars run off the cams....I'd really like to get a more mechanical bind going on.


pics ?
Re: adjustable cam gears for ld9
Tuesday, July 21, 2009 4:38 PM
Right now I only have a CAD of it on my computer at home...right now I'm in Tulsa, OK for the next 7 weeks so pics will be impossible right now. What I'm doing right now is more friction surface calculations and HP take-off requirements of PS pump and some vortech SC's(for those who would like to run them, if any, with these gears) so this alone will keep me pretty busy in my off time at the hotel for the weeks I will be here. However, looking at the $ for the spines it seems a more empirical method may be more reasonable. I'm waiting on SAE to get the data I requested for static(the important one) and kinetic friction coefficients for different machining surfaces(ra specs). I will possibly look into some sort of high viscosity particle paste for the mechanical binders at this point.....sorta like a 3000cp grease(axle grease being around 1000cp) with diamond particles or something...again, I still have to figure out the torque we are really talking about holding back so this might be well over the top....I shall see.


"Never argue with an idiot. They'll drag you down to their level, then beat you with experience!" -Anonymous
Re: adjustable cam gears for ld9
Wednesday, July 22, 2009 7:26 AM
Anybody have any efficiency curves for the vortech's? Or maybe good stock PS pump specs ie: ?GPM @ ?PSI + efficiency(probly not but would be awesome)


"Never argue with an idiot. They'll drag you down to their level, then beat you with experience!" -Anonymous
Re: adjustable cam gears for ld9
Wednesday, July 22, 2009 8:14 AM
Josh, if you need someone to make them I can do so. Shoot me a PM. Maybe we can work a deal.


http://www.overkillengineeringmotorsports.com/
Re: adjustable cam gears for ld9
Wednesday, July 22, 2009 10:05 AM
Sure, I will do that. I know we had talked about this before and I haven't forgotten. The only reason I went initially with a different shop was because the shop in mind specializes is splines and already has the CNC equipment and dies for it...so they can actually forge the splines instead of machine. Then we can gain the strain hardening effect which will help tremendously and reduce the post production hardening treatments that would be required. But again, that is just one of several ideas I'm still looking thru. I just really wanted to find a shop that could do it with CNC dies before I even thought about the details. Nothing like good engineering followed by no real way to produce the part....lol. So more details to be worked on before anything else is done.


"Never argue with an idiot. They'll drag you down to their level, then beat you with experience!" -Anonymous
Re: adjustable cam gears for ld9
Wednesday, July 22, 2009 10:32 AM
Good deal. Yeah we have a very good machine shop that we work with, they can pretty much make anything. What material were you thinking? like a 6061 t6 or a 4140 steel?

Mark


http://www.overkillengineeringmotorsports.com/
Re: adjustable cam gears for ld9
Wednesday, July 22, 2009 12:40 PM
I'd really like to use cold drawn 4142 moly but that is pretty spendy. Definitely not Al tho, maybe we can make some of them up for people not interested in ever running any PTO's including PS. I will look into it tho since the Al has a nice poisons ratio that would be really beneficial and would definitely help in the mechanical bind area. I think what would work best is a set of wide splines that would be swappable and these inserts could be machined with the degree advances into them...so one ring would have the teeth with 0 degree offset...so once you took the gears apart and put that in you would have neutral gears. Then a whole other ring can be made with a advance built in of whatever amount. I like this idea because then these can be bought separately, made quickly in like a water jet CNC which would help keep the cost down which is why I like the idea, flipped around for the same magnitude of advance or retard. So one could buy the inner and outer gear, then but a set of middle splined inserts....also these splines can be much larger since they are not used for the actual advance/retard...rather that is machined directly into the middle ring when it is machined. Then the bolts would just strap this all together like a sandwich from both sides.....I like this idea the best so far. Too bad I have to redo my design to do it....but o well, it honestly didn't take too long. We could also keep the weight down by not making an entire ring...rather just 3 or 4 sections that would bridge the inner ring to the outer. <- That would be pretty badass...and then you wouldn't have to worry about ring binds when trying to replace them/swap them. Sucks I didn't think about this before...lol


"Never argue with an idiot. They'll drag you down to their level, then beat you with experience!" -Anonymous
Re: adjustable cam gears for ld9
Wednesday, July 22, 2009 1:30 PM
Agh what. so many implementation details

Just make them and I will buy a pair. Maybe not right away since I'm as broke as GM, but I will definitely buy a pair.



- Interior FAQ -
J-Body of Michigan -
Re: adjustable cam gears for ld9
Wednesday, July 22, 2009 5:01 PM
Once the gears get made, maybe OEM can com up with a design for our timing chain housing cover. Like cutting a hole in the cover exactly where our gears are so we can adjust them whenever we like without taking the damn thing off an on.










~2014 New Z under the knife, same heart different body~
______________________
WHITECAVY no more
2012 numbers - 4SPD AUTOMATIC!!
328 HP
306 TQ

Re: adjustable cam gears for ld9
Wednesday, July 22, 2009 5:24 PM
Why not just make a new cover on a flow jet? very very simple and clean...throw the bottom piece in a brake after the cut and add a lip.....done


"Never argue with an idiot. They'll drag you down to their level, then beat you with experience!" -Anonymous
Re: adjustable cam gears for ld9
Wednesday, July 22, 2009 5:34 PM
Yeah we can come up with a sick cover, that will be able to allow access to the gears, or even watch the gears move......hummm. Clear cover over the gears??


http://www.overkillengineeringmotorsports.com/
Re: adjustable cam gears for ld9
Wednesday, July 22, 2009 6:18 PM
absolfinglutely. clear cover is best.



PFFT secret cams?! pm me if you want a real upgrade.
Re: adjustable cam gears for ld9
Wednesday, July 22, 2009 6:34 PM
z yaaaa wrote:

absolfinglutely. clear cover is best.


Well, we talked about this a while ago. Clear cover + oil slung all over it= nastiness I think.











~2014 New Z under the knife, same heart different body~
______________________
WHITECAVY no more
2012 numbers - 4SPD AUTOMATIC!!
328 HP
306 TQ
Re: adjustable cam gears for ld9
Wednesday, July 22, 2009 8:11 PM
yeah...clear cover would be a no go for me.


"Never argue with an idiot. They'll drag you down to their level, then beat you with experience!" -Anonymous
Re: adjustable cam gears for ld9
Wednesday, July 22, 2009 8:31 PM
Lol, it was just a thought, not really thinking about doing it.


http://www.overkillengineeringmotorsports.com/
Re: adjustable cam gears for ld9
Thursday, July 23, 2009 5:21 AM
Lol dont get me wrong, would be cool though if our gears weren't internal.

Now that I think about it, wont we have to take the chain off the gears to adjust them? If thats the case, the access panel on the cover would be no good in my opionion since we would have to get to the shoes and crank gear.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edited Thursday, July 23, 2009 5:25 AM








~2014 New Z under the knife, same heart different body~
______________________
WHITECAVY no more
2012 numbers - 4SPD AUTOMATIC!!
328 HP
306 TQ
Re: adjustable cam gears for ld9
Thursday, July 23, 2009 6:13 AM
Well, I found another way to do it. I found some info about how exactly the GM Racing team was thinking about doing...not sure if they ever actually did make them to that design tho. I heard one set existed but I did also confirm that that set was not built like they were 'thinking about doing it'. I still have to sort out the fine details but I talked it out with Michael Davis and he likes the design as well. Not sure if it can be done without taking the chain off yet...that would be ideal for me. I see no reason why it can't be at this point but it might require a slight modification to the chain cover and some special tools to be made. Like something that will hold the outside gear halfs while the inside can be rotated and then reassembled. This nice thing about the new design is it wouldn't require alot of detailed machining, things like degree scribes on the gears. I will say this....with a mechanical bind system to support some of the PTO's GM is in love with running on our intake cams. To adjust these gears it will be more involved than adjusting any other gear on the market...I can tell you that. Hopefully it just wont turn into a pain in the ass. If it is well designed it shouldn't be too bad.


"Never argue with an idiot. They'll drag you down to their level, then beat you with experience!" -Anonymous
Re: adjustable cam gears for ld9
Sunday, July 26, 2009 11:05 PM
Well, I got another design. Using the same base as the GM Racing teams plans but I can make it where the gears don't have to be removed and the Kent more tools will be 'could' be used(depending on the advance and retard people are looking for) to hold the cam in place and relocate relative to the sprocket. Well...a modified kent-moore tool..would have to cut off one of the 4 holding points. OR a new tool could be made...either way.

I do need some help tho. I have a set of gears with me in my hotel, but I dont have the cams or timing housing so I don't know exactly what I'm working with. Can anybody tell me how much room I got to play with on the front of the gears before we hit the timing housing cover? Roughly? and how much room we got behind the gear teeth to the housing and is there anything on the housing 'behind the gear' I should know about? Or is the timing chain housing flat from the tops of the gear all the way to the through hole for the camshaft? Aren't there some bolts behind the gear that bolt the housing to the towers? And these bolts sit in the gap between the chain sprocket and the part of the gear that actually touches the camshaft output flange? I need to know how much room between the gear and the housing and how much these bolts stick out off the housing. Also if someone could tell me the grade of these tower bolts that would be awesome. Chances are good we will have to run a low profile hex head bolt as a replacement depending on how much room I got. With the design I got I really need to widen the gear about 0.5" or so, maybe a little less...I need to find the room somewhere. Maybe we will need to really make a custom chain cover for this. Either way...I need help finding out what I got to work with if anybody can help. I'd do it myself but I was doing this for myself and was in no hurry and I'm stuck in a hotel for the next 6 weeks away from my house..lol

EDIT: Please don't bother posting anything if it starts with "I think it's about" or "maybe got around"....please either KNOW or MEASURE if possible.

EDIT X2: What is the total maximum advance/retard people are looking for....not committing to anything but I think I could fit +/- 10 degrees or maybe a little more..maybe.





Edited 4 time(s). Last edited Monday, July 27, 2009 6:10 AM

"Never argue with an idiot. They'll drag you down to their level, then beat you with experience!" -Anonymous
Re: adjustable cam gears for ld9
Monday, July 27, 2009 5:09 AM
Damn I wish I could help you out with that info right now.

Listening......










~2014 New Z under the knife, same heart different body~
______________________
WHITECAVY no more
2012 numbers - 4SPD AUTOMATIC!!
328 HP
306 TQ

Re: adjustable cam gears for ld9
Monday, July 27, 2009 6:28 AM
Anyone have their engine out that can take measurements?
Re: adjustable cam gears for ld9
Monday, July 27, 2009 8:25 AM
I do, what you need measurements of? I am not reading all of josh's text, unless I have to lol.


http://www.overkillengineeringmotorsports.com/
Re: adjustable cam gears for ld9
Monday, July 27, 2009 9:20 AM
yes, you have too


"Never argue with an idiot. They'll drag you down to their level, then beat you with experience!" -Anonymous
Re: adjustable cam gears for ld9
Monday, July 27, 2009 9:39 AM
ok, I will read at lunch and respond accordingly.


http://www.overkillengineeringmotorsports.com/
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