Jrcz24 wrote:Bob Guptill wrote:ya the v8 pistons are a nogo, but if you are going all motor than drop the 2200 pistons in a 2.2 block do soem head and cam work and you got a quick lil engine
So the 2200 pistons will actually be helpful as far as some performance goes?
That all depends on you and what your plans are. Oh and if your complaining about the cost now? You have the wrong motor almost nothing is "cheap" for this motor performance wise.
When in doupt, grub.
greg wrote:Jrcz24 wrote:Bob Guptill wrote:ya the v8 pistons are a nogo, but if you are going all motor than drop the 2200 pistons in a 2.2 block do soem head and cam work and you got a quick lil engine
So the 2200 pistons will actually be helpful as far as some performance goes?
That all depends on you and what your plans are. Oh and if your complaining about the cost now? You have the wrong motor almost nothing is "cheap" for this motor performance wise.
Yea I realized that after doing some research, I just want something with all around power for right now and then later i would like to be able to run boost. Thats also the reason why Im trying to figure out what I can modify to work. I wanna kinda be different and run a little different setup than what most of the guys are running, so im feeling the waters to find out whats interchangable and whats not.
JBO Member since 2006.
Speedline02 (GME Chat!!) wrote:Nickelin Dimer wrote:Speedline02 (GME Chat!!) wrote:you have to get the 10 mm studs from GM but they werent all that expensive...
i didnt think the pistons were interchangeable but i kept my mouth shut because i didnt know for sure... i know out of the Vega (circa 1970s) they had the Iron Duke 4 cyl (i wanna say 2.4 l) that was half of a v8 litterally... all the 350 internals would fit.
I've gotta field this one...
The pre-'79 Iron Duke you speak of was also known as The Little Indian (IIRC), intro'd in the rear-transaxle'd Tempest in '60. Yes, it was just a V-8 minus one bank... But it was based on the Pontiac V-8, not the Chevy. And The Poncho 350 didn't appear until the late-'60s, and it was... and still is... viewed by Pontiac performance enthusiasts as a dog. A waste of time. Not as much as the notorious 301, but you'd still be lucky to find any performance parts for it... Let alone the Little Indian. The Iron Duke (2.5L) was introduced in the early-'70s, slated as replacement for the little Indian, and saw duty in "Super-thrifty" trim-level RWD X-bodies (Power-nothing, 3-spd manual) as well as replacement for the "calculation-error" misdesigned Vega iron-sleeved aluminum block (GM's first foray into CAD, and they miscalculated the thermal-expansion rate!) in the mid-'70s, along with usage in the new RWD J-body replacements offered by all divisions except Cadillac (
oh i see.... im not a v8 guy... i just work with them, and i have one who talks about an "Iron duke motor being half a v8 and all the internals interchange) all the time...
I never said the Little Indian wasn't half an eight... Just that the Iron Duke wasn't. The Little Indian
was half of a V-8...
Literally! It's cylinder row was even canted, like someone sawed a V-8 down the middle, but slightly offset to the left to avoid the cam & crank bores. It even had the pre-'68('67?) Pontiac/Cadillac/AMC trans bell-housing mating-surface pattern! But, when the Tempest went A-body (Traditional trans & axle layout (Separate!)) the Little Indian disappeared... And the Chevy Nova's 153ci I-4 became GM's smallest then-current production (Traditional-style) engine. Don't ask me about the Corvair's deal....
Go beyond the "bolt-on".
if you wanna run boost do not do the piston/head swap i mentioned that is completely going teh wrong way
Jrc- Pm'ed about some stuff I have sittin in my workshop.
Bob Guptill wrote:if you wanna run boost do not do the piston/head swap i mentioned that is completely going teh wrong way
Actually right now I may just run N/A, but eventually i may wanna boost it. I dont plan on going rediculous with boost or anything, just a simple setup with maybe about 10-12 psi. Cause my thought was i wanted to build my motor to support power enough to either run N/A or with boost, hopefully this is possible to just run N/A for a little then run boost later on without tearing the motor back down in order to build again. Would that swap you mentioned be safe with any type of boost?
JBO Member since 2006.
I ran my 2200 at 8.5:1 for a whole year before I could afford to turbo it. I had no problems. Atleast not with the engine any way. Now electrical issues are another story.
no it would not work wth any boost. the reason why it works n/a is because the cylinder pressures arent as high as a boosted application, thus the fact that i dont need to run forged pistons. if you run any boost at all for a long period of time you should have eagle rods and forged pistons. id say get some 8.5:1 or 9:1 pistons and that would make a perfect boosted setup.
we make a lot fo n/a power with these engines but mine only work at high rpm they are not street driven they are only in my stock car thus i need to do a very minimal amount of work to keep it idleing and such. plus i run a barneurator and distributor on my engine, when you go boosted you will need some fuel system enhancements to keep up with boost
Josh G. wrote:I ran my 2200 at 8.5:1 for a whole year before I could afford to turbo it. I had no problems. Atleast not with the engine any way. Now electrical issues are another story.
Are you still running at 8.5:1? Cause I wanna be at a ratio that would work for either N/A or boost if thats possible.
JBO Member since 2006.
Yes I am. For now any way. I am getting ready to add in a Cometic MLS head gasket .073 and this will drop the compression a good deal. But then again I am already turbocharged and have plans of ditching my current turbo and buying a Turbonetics DTK500 (I hope to anyway LOL)
Ok, Ill look for a pistons for around 8.5 or 9:1 if I do end up running boost. If dont run boost, what should I look for? I know this is a stupid question, but any idea what my stock ratio is? Im unsure on what stock is.
JBO Member since 2006.
Stock is 8.89:1.
Go beyond the "bolt-on".
Nickelin Dimer wrote:Stock is 8.89:1.
I know this is another stupid question, but is that the ratio for my 96 2.2 or the 98+ 2200's?
JBO Member since 2006.
I thought it was "8", Jack... Not "9" as the full-point number. At least, that's what the books claim!
Go beyond the "bolt-on".
Would any other internals from any other engine work or could be modified to work with the LN2?
JBO Member since 2006.
if you use the 2200 head and pistons in a 2.2 block it puts the compression up to 12:1 which is not good for anything but racing if your looking for a good streetable piston im running 10.5:1 comp pistons on mine for the best N/A performance and wiseco makes a nice set and the whole performance engine kit from importperformanceparts is on a grand and ive dynoed the hp at the wheels to 145 and 157 ft/lbs which is considerably better then stock where i had 94 hp and 102 ft/lbs at the wheels stock
Erik Packard
Jrcz24 wrote:Would any other internals from any other engine work or could be modified to work with the LN2?
Correct me if I am wrong..... But it seems like you are trying to go the cheap route on making HP out of a LN2/2200. Flat out not possible. This engine is costly. There is no way around spending the money to get this done unless you have the ability to make every part yourself.
Trust me. I have been toying with my '98 2200 for over 10 years now. I have went the bolt on route, I wasn't happy with output. I have went the lets try to be cheap and mock sh!t up myself route and it didn't work. Simply put unless you plan on dumping thousands of dollars in this engine go a different route.
The main reason people like Madjack, Nickelin Dimer, John Benham, QWK LN2 and myself stayed 2.2/LN2/2200 was to be different and to prove the whole movement of people ditching our engines for the Z24/LD9s swaps wrong. If you want more HP cheap drop in a different engine and a GM supercharger. If you want to put your stamp on a "dying" platform plan on spending some dough.
You have to pay to play. There is no way around that.
P.S.
To any of the other major 2.2/LN2/2200 builders out there I may have left off I apologize. To the ECO/LD9/2.3/Z24 owners out there we know your engines are the Sh!t and I am not dissing on any of the other engine options available. (just wanted to make my statements clear before some one cries that I was bias to there project)
OP...I was looking into it myself..i have a '96 2.2 sunfire...i gave up on the 2.2 build because of the cost and from what i keep hearing , the LD9 would be a bit better but cost is high too...I am looking into the Eco swap and run a bit less than the LN2 build...This is what I have gather from reading threads on here....
2003 Cavalier
Stock 2.2 Liter, 5 speed
" Leave the rice to Uncle Ben's and the wings to KFC..
Go clean or go home. "
Josh G. wrote:Jrcz24 wrote:Would any other internals from any other engine work or could be modified to work with the LN2?
Correct me if I am wrong..... But it seems like you are trying to go the cheap route on making HP out of a LN2/2200. Flat out not possible. This engine is costly. There is no way around spending the money to get this done unless you have the ability to make every part yourself.
Trust me. I have been toying with my '98 2200 for over 10 years now. I have went the bolt on route, I wasn't happy with output. I have went the lets try to be cheap and mock sh!t up myself route and it didn't work. Simply put unless you plan on dumping thousands of dollars in this engine go a different route.
The main reason people like Madjack, Nickelin Dimer, John Benham, QWK LN2 and myself stayed 2.2/LN2/2200 was to be different and to prove the whole movement of people ditching our engines for the Z24/LD9s swaps wrong. If you want more HP cheap drop in a different engine and a GM supercharger. If you want to put your stamp on a "dying" platform plan on spending some dough.
You have to pay to play. There is no way around that.
P.S.
To any of the other major 2.2/LN2/2200 builders out there I may have left off I apologize. To the ECO/LD9/2.3/Z24 owners out there we know your engines are the Sh!t and I am not dissing on any of the other engine options available. (just wanted to make my statements clear before some one cries that I was bias to there project)
well, i kinda disagree. if you go with pistons from the 2.2 in the 2200, run a thicker headgasket, put some oversized valves, then just put a few hundred into a pnp, and get some 1.6:1 rockers, i think that would be a fairly cheap, but put out some good numbers, kinda build. match that down the road with a bigger tb, cai, maybe a custom intake(if any company will start makin em!), and a full exhaust. i think that would be a decent build, and it gives something to add to throughtout time to make it better.(the add-ons might be kinda costly, i wouldn't be suprised if all the add-ons cost more than the engine work i've said here.)
not picking a fight or anything, and i could be wrong, i just think it is possible to do cheaply. now, also wanting to be able to boost with low boost, then don't touch the bottom end. its strong enough for low boost, and is great cr for it.
Ricozero wrote:if you use the 2200 head and pistons in a 2.2 block it puts the compression up to 12:1 which is not good for anything but racing if your looking for a good streetable piston im running 10.5:1 comp pistons on mine for the best N/A performance and wiseco makes a nice set and the whole performance engine kit from importperformanceparts is on a grand and ive dynoed the hp at the wheels to 145 and 157 ft/lbs which is considerably better then stock where i had 94 hp and 102 ft/lbs at the wheels stock
I thought the blocks were the same between the 2.2 and the 2200? If they are the same, then wouldnt a stock 2200 be running a 12:1 compression?
please correct me if im wrong, im just trying to understand this better.
As far as cheap route, i kinda wanted to see if i can keep some of the cost down. Right now at this time I know i wont have this build finished. My original plan was to swap the motor from my DD into my red cav that way I can drive it and go to the bash, then i was gonna tear down the existing motor from the red cav and build it and see what kinda power i could get out of it.
JBO Member since 2006.
Honestly I dont know many people that are willing to do a port n polish job for a couple hundred.
Here is a rounded up figure to feed an idea of prices.
1.6:1 roller rockers $190-220 (depending on brand)
Cometic MLS $100-125 (depending on thickness)
1mm bigger vales $200-300 (last I checked)
Port n polish $300-1,300 (depending on what you do in addition) (*most over sized valves require new valve guides)
You putting the motor together yourself? If not add $$$
What about these....
stronger pushrods
stonger,stiffer valve springs (strongly suggested, may require reground valve springs seating)
ARP studs
Eagle rods
why spend the money on a intake, headers etc.etc.etc. if the plan is turbo?
I am not argueing with any one I just know what it cost's. I know that it starts out I am only gonna spend.... then you end up replacing everything else. Do you honestly think I planned on my motor build costing me over $4k. HELL NO! I would have went another route.
I`ll say it again. If you want to play you have to pay.
I strongly suggest you forget building two motors. Save your money, buy the parts to build one motor and make it bad ass. Its worth the wait.
No matter what you do I wish you good luck. We are always here to anwser questions as long as it doesnt include the following: Cheapest way, Ebay turbo kits, or electric superchargers/turbos. LOL!
engines that make power are not cheap. the pistons and head were different from 97-98
older style had high cc piston and low cc head
newer style had low cc pistona nd high cc head
take the low cc piston and low cc head and there is your 12:1
As said take the low cc pistons from the newer style 2200 and use the low cc pistons that come in the old 2.2 and thats how you get your 12:1 compression and its not very efficient to run on the street if you want to run a good street package check out importperformanceparts.net and other websites for the parts my build is mostly from there and mantaparts, also some andysautosport, and with some of my own custom work you can get power out of your 2.2 but i know after i built mine up i realized it wasnt worth the money and the next thing im going to do to it is swap a 3400 in it i know i will not run boost with that engine its just not worth the time and effort
Erik Packard
for ana ll motor setup how is the 12:1 not good for the street?
my cam is wayy overdone for the street but a car with strong enough fuel and a super good tune and a nice cam that low $ option is just fine for a nice bump in power
