Pure NA Project - Page 2 - Performance Forum

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Re: Pure NA Project
Tuesday, July 02, 2013 9:28 PM
Im going with every one elts here. if you get a CAI the temps can run about the temperature outside, throwing meth at that is kind of a waste. I dont have dyno prof but i share some logic. cooling a intake charger with a supercharger is good because superchargers create alot of heat and can crank IAT up to 50* warmer than outside. Cooling that back down to ambient (surrounding) temperatures is useful. there is a loss of power that needs to be regained. w/m injection would be about as good as adding race full to your car only with 5X the headache. If you want injected power try some nitrous, its sketchy if you dont know how to use it but it is way better than the 2HP from n/a meth injection.




Re: Pure NA Project
Tuesday, July 02, 2013 10:26 PM
Brian wrote:The amount of heat you pull out of the air with meth injection decreases as the IAT decreases. The law of diminishing returns is a bitch.


yes, yes it does and i totally agree. but now you arent thinking in terms of tuning benefits, ALSO. you guys need to stop being so obtuse and use the imagination you were given.

were talking about adding a system that weighs MAYBE 20 extra pounds here. he can take out the ac system alone and make that up if its such a big deal.

and apparently you didnt even conceive the notion of ALSO injecting nitro methane with the mix? hows that law go for a diminishing return again? snow performance makes a nitro methane cocktail that you dump in with their "boost juice" 49/51 meth water and claim anywhere from 30-50hp with it and NO tuning needed. plenty of people also run 100% meth and mix in nitro methane for an extra pop. granted the tuning for a mix that would REALLY give a kick in the pants would need to be spot on but if all you are adding is a little bit its safe.. or safe ish anyway LOL

the OP has said he wants to do this bolt on only. where else is he going to get power without boost or nitrous? ...where? you said there are "SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO" many other places he can gain power. id love to know where without opening the engine and running all the bolt ons. and we've already talked about tuning.



M45/OS crank/2.4 snout. It's nice to be injected but I love being blown!
Re: Pure NA Project
Tuesday, July 02, 2013 10:31 PM
Alex Meyers wrote:Im going with every one elts here. if you get a CAI the temps can run about the temperature outside, throwing meth at that is kind of a waste. I dont have dyno prof but i share some logic. cooling a intake charger with a supercharger is good because superchargers create alot of heat and can crank IAT up to 50* warmer than outside. Cooling that back down to ambient (surrounding) temperatures is useful. there is a loss of power that needs to be regained. w/m injection would be about as good as adding race full to your car only with 5X the headache. If you want injected power try some nitrous, its sketchy if you dont know how to use it but it is way better than the 2HP from n/a meth injection.


its not just "2hp" its 1% per 10* drop in IAT's. depends on your engine and the power it makes. also depends on how much the temp drops. and again for the millionth time, it IS possible to gain some more power with timing increases. so, that could mean even more. for the low cost of a meth injection kit i dont see the complication here. if it works, great. if it doesnt, sell the kit and move on. but jesus to not even try just because some people on an internet web forum lack imagination and say it cant or "shouldnt" be done is just beyond ridiculous.



M45/OS crank/2.4 snout. It's nice to be injected but I love being blown!
Re: Pure NA Project
Tuesday, July 02, 2013 10:53 PM
-Z Yaaaa- wrote:the OP has said he wants to do this bolt on only. where else is he going to get power without boost or nitrous? ...where? you said there are "SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO" many other places he can gain power. id love to know where without opening the engine and running all the bolt ons. and we've already talked about tuning.


An intake and exhaust manifold actually designed for the goal at hand would be a good place to start along gasket/port matching the manis. I've seen people pull 10hp out of an N/A K20 by just varying the size and angle of the megaphone at the collector. Thats after they completely optimized the runner diameter and length for the engine it was running on.

There is a science to making good N/A power. Its not just buying random parts and hoping for the best.

Go ahead and prove me wrong though. I'll eat my words if you do. At this point youre just arguing as much on speculation as everyone else is.





Re: Pure NA Project
Wednesday, July 03, 2013 9:15 AM
Brian wrote:
-Z Yaaaa- wrote:the OP has said he wants to do this bolt on only. where else is he going to get power without boost or nitrous? ...where? you said there are "SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO" many other places he can gain power. id love to know where without opening the engine and running all the bolt ons. and we've already talked about tuning.


An intake and exhaust manifold actually designed for the goal at hand would be a good place to start along gasket/port matching the manis. I've seen people pull 10hp out of an N/A K20 by just varying the size and angle of the megaphone at the collector. Thats after they completely optimized the runner diameter and length for the engine it was running on.

There is a science to making good N/A power. Its not just buying random parts and hoping for the best.

Go ahead and prove me wrong though. I'll eat my words if you do. At this point youre just arguing as much on speculation as everyone else is.


wow you dont realize i have been one of the biggest n/a supportors around this place do you? lol i know what it takes to make n/a go. the problem with your statements here is the fact were talking about what the OP is doing. obviously if he was gonna open up the engine and run more compression with a better flowing head etc it would be worth it. an intake manifold is a bolt on.

and yes, megaphones and merge collectors. a couple more items the j-body community has no clue about. most wouldnt even bother researching their benefits let alone actually spend the money to get them. and this goes for a lot of things. this is a lot of the reason behind me suggesting a meth kit. its CHEAP.

and i SAID i had no proof lol and i also SAID me thinking of something working isnt proof. go back and read.



M45/OS crank/2.4 snout. It's nice to be injected but I love being blown!
Re: Pure NA Project
Wednesday, July 03, 2013 9:47 AM
I dont like reading. Lets just agree to disagree.



Re: Pure NA Project
Wednesday, July 03, 2013 11:37 AM
OP,

You will need more mods than what you have listed to hit 180whp.

With the mods you have listed expect to get something in the 150whp range.

Add cams and your looking around high 160whp.

Add a ported head and I'd say you will find yourself in the 170whp range.


N/A is a game of money, time and accepting disappointment.

I got 193whp, with the 2.4 bottom end, 11.3:1 CR, a ported head, oversize valves, stage 2 cams, 2.4 intake manifold, 62.5mm TB, balance shaft delete, and a fancy custom 4-1 stepped long tube header with a cutout on the end of it.



Unless its a K-series Honda motor, prepare yourself to sink a lot of time and money into the car for minimal gains.

To be perfectly honest, I'd look to spend your money on supporting mods to lower 1/4 mile times (if thats what your looking to do with it later) than in motor mods, its nearly better bang for the buck.

With full bolt-ons I'm pretty sure I was running around 14.2 in the 1/4 mile on cheater slicks.





Re: Pure NA Project
Wednesday, July 03, 2013 4:28 PM
Brian wrote:I dont like reading. Lets just agree to disagree.


now thats a plan!!



M45/OS crank/2.4 snout. It's nice to be injected but I love being blown!
Re: Pure NA Project
Sunday, July 07, 2013 2:33 PM
Well that escalated quickly.

Newt has given you the best answer so far. Bolt ons simply won't do a whole lot with our cars, even after tuning. You want extra power, prepare to open the engine up.



Re: Pure NA Project
Wednesday, August 07, 2013 5:45 PM
As much as I applaud your time and efforts into making your 2200 engine fast ,your money ,time and efforts would have been better invested on a nice 2.2 ecotec L61 engine dohc with all the trimmings ! The only thing missing on the L61 is direct injection technology!


BLACKMANTIS
Re: Pure NA Project
Wednesday, August 07, 2013 8:48 PM
BLACK MANTIS wrote:As much as I applaud your time and efforts into making your 2200 engine fast ,your money ,time and efforts would have been better invested on a nice 2.2 ecotec L61 engine dohc with all the trimmings ! The only thing missing on the L61 is direct injection technology!


Might want to re-read this thread boss.




Re: Pure NA Project
Thursday, August 08, 2013 6:19 PM
Ooopsy ,my mistake , but you know I`m still right Brian, right?


BLACKMANTIS
Re: Pure NA Project
Thursday, August 08, 2013 6:21 PM
A ported head along with a 100 shot of nitrous can goe a long way!


BLACKMANTIS
Re: Pure NA Project
Friday, August 09, 2013 8:16 AM
I've read this thread over and over a few times to understand your point Brad... and I'll be honest what I garner from it is that as much as you love these cars and love to go fast you don't understand how the engine operates or how to tune it.

Now I'm not trying to be a d!ck in saying that - I hope you understand that.... nor is this an attack of any kind.

To keep it brief what you are suggesting is that you can offset some heavily ramped up timing with cooling mods like meth.... which can work but only to a point. Since spark advance is what ignites the mixture and fires the piston to its downward stroke there IS a possibility that you can advance it too far beyond its operating range and fire the mixture far too soon. This of course works against the pistons upward stroke and costs you both horsepower and torque. As mentioned earlier in this thread there is such a thing as "too much" timing... while GM likes to tune their cars for safety and economy they haven't left vast amounts of room in the tune to advance the timing on a stock engine.

A friend of mine with an Ecotec in a Cavy got his hands on HPTUNERS and played with advanced timing... a few degrees provided some bump but he wasn't far along until he realized that he was losing power with the advance... I believe stock ECO timing is 32 degrees at the top end of the range and he found that at 38 degrees that's all she had. He wasn't knocking - not one bit! IN fact he took it to 42 degrees of advance with little to no knock... but knock doesn't tell the whole story. It just tells you that the spark is too hot for the fuel mixture, but it doesn't tell you about the pistons stroke compared to the ignition timing. He found that at 42 degrees of advance with next to no knock that he had lost a serious amount of power in the engine and was in fact hurting the headgasket.

As I mentioned to you in another thread, when I was tuning that M45 blown LD9 1 degree was the difference between 209 whp and 199 or so wtq, and 201 whp and 206 wtq. (Approximate numbers but very close from what I remember)... it came down to what the client wanted - more top end HP or more torque. I knew that if I advanced it any further the car would start to lose hp and gain torque... and not far after start losing both. He informed me he wanted the HP and so I dropped it a degree and did two more consistent runs of 209 whp and 199 wtq. Yes this was with no meth running, but meth wouldn't have helped because we weren't knocking - the engine had simply met its point of advance for his setup. Meth would have simply cooled the charge and made more HP but it wouldn't have let me advance the timing any further at the detriment of power.

As is being mentioned by everybody here - unless you are going to raise compression in the engine or change the cam and completely alter the volumetric efficiency of the engine there is little to gain from a meth setup on a stock engine - even with external bolt on mods. He would gain more from running a lower temp stat and running the coolant a bit colder on a constant basis, to be honest. But as with all things there is a limitation to how cool you can run an engine before its out of its operating range for efficiency - that' something else to keep in mind.

You seem to be very focused on keeping an engine cool - which is admirable but it's only a slice of the pie. There is no avoiding the fact that engines generate heat and rather than trying to fight that fact you should use it to your advantage. I told you this 10 years ago when I built Sweetness - hot air moves faster... and the faster you can get the exhaust out of the head the better. You are better off thermally coating the combustion chamber and pistons and using that heat to your advantage than you are fighting it.

Trying to control IAT's is a smart thing which I know you focus on a lot, but once it's past the intake manifold it's up to the engine. The only reason we need to cool intake charges is because of the kinetic energy that compressing air (making boost) creates - kinetic energy makes heat. (i.e rub your hand across a carpet as fast as you can for 15 seconds and see what happens.) In a naturally aspirated engine there is little to no reason to lower IAT's as they are going to be at or near ambient... the gains will be very very little. It's not worth the money and time and weight needed to run the system and the "gain" of timing advance won't be enough to be worth it. It would be cheaper and more beneficial to advance the timing *moderately* and dump in 94 octane or race gas than to run meth full time.

I know you'll find a way to disagree with me but just sit and think about it all and you'll see what we are all talking about. An engine is more than just heat - there is a reason engineers are the ones that design engines and they do it in teams using collective learned knowledge. There is a LOT to consider when it comes to the design of one, and while your focus on heat is a good start it's not the entire picture... it's but a slice.

To the OP - Newt has built a fully N/A engine on the same platform as you are looking for - heed his advice. Not only does he speak from extreme experience he understands the ecotec quite well... as much as it is loosely based on the same design as the LD9 it's a shockingly different engine when it comes to how it operates and responds to modifications. (i.e ecotecs for some reason just love to run lean... whereas an LD9 will make you pay for running even just a little bit too lean. LD9's respond very favorably to head modifications and ecotecs get gains from them but not to the same degree. Etc etc.)

I guess that wasn't brief after all.

-Chris-



-Sweetness-
-Turbocharged-
Slowly but surely may some day win this race...
Re: Pure NA Project
Monday, August 12, 2013 7:53 PM
SweetnessGT wrote:I've read this thread over and over a few times to understand your point Brad... and I'll be honest what I garner from it is that as much as you love these cars and love to go fast you don't understand how the engine operates or how to tune it.

Now I'm not trying to be a d!ck in saying that - I hope you understand that.... nor is this an attack of any kind.

To keep it brief what you are suggesting is that you can offset some heavily ramped up timing with cooling mods like meth.... which can work but only to a point. Since spark advance is what ignites the mixture and fires the piston to its downward stroke there IS a possibility that you can advance it too far beyond its operating range and fire the mixture far too soon. This of course works against the pistons upward stroke and costs you both horsepower and torque. As mentioned earlier in this thread there is such a thing as "too much" timing... while GM likes to tune their cars for safety and economy they haven't left vast amounts of room in the tune to advance the timing on a stock engine.

A friend of mine with an Ecotec in a Cavy got his hands on HPTUNERS and played with advanced timing... a few degrees provided some bump but he wasn't far along until he realized that he was losing power with the advance... I believe stock ECO timing is 32 degrees at the top end of the range and he found that at 38 degrees that's all she had. He wasn't knocking - not one bit! IN fact he took it to 42 degrees of advance with little to no knock... but knock doesn't tell the whole story. It just tells you that the spark is too hot for the fuel mixture, but it doesn't tell you about the pistons stroke compared to the ignition timing. He found that at 42 degrees of advance with next to no knock that he had lost a serious amount of power in the engine and was in fact hurting the headgasket.

As I mentioned to you in another thread, when I was tuning that M45 blown LD9 1 degree was the difference between 209 whp and 199 or so wtq, and 201 whp and 206 wtq. (Approximate numbers but very close from what I remember)... it came down to what the client wanted - more top end HP or more torque. I knew that if I advanced it any further the car would start to lose hp and gain torque... and not far after start losing both. He informed me he wanted the HP and so I dropped it a degree and did two more consistent runs of 209 whp and 199 wtq. Yes this was with no meth running, but meth wouldn't have helped because we weren't knocking - the engine had simply met its point of advance for his setup. Meth would have simply cooled the charge and made more HP but it wouldn't have let me advance the timing any further at the detriment of power.

As is being mentioned by everybody here - unless you are going to raise compression in the engine or change the cam and completely alter the volumetric efficiency of the engine there is little to gain from a meth setup on a stock engine - even with external bolt on mods. He would gain more from running a lower temp stat and running the coolant a bit colder on a constant basis, to be honest. But as with all things there is a limitation to how cool you can run an engine before its out of its operating range for efficiency - that' something else to keep in mind.

You seem to be very focused on keeping an engine cool - which is admirable but it's only a slice of the pie. There is no avoiding the fact that engines generate heat and rather than trying to fight that fact you should use it to your advantage. I told you this 10 years ago when I built Sweetness - hot air moves faster... and the faster you can get the exhaust out of the head the better. You are better off thermally coating the combustion chamber and pistons and using that heat to your advantage than you are fighting it.

Trying to control IAT's is a smart thing which I know you focus on a lot, but once it's past the intake manifold it's up to the engine. The only reason we need to cool intake charges is because of the kinetic energy that compressing air (making boost) creates - kinetic energy makes heat. (i.e rub your hand across a carpet as fast as you can for 15 seconds and see what happens.) In a naturally aspirated engine there is little to no reason to lower IAT's as they are going to be at or near ambient... the gains will be very very little. It's not worth the money and time and weight needed to run the system and the "gain" of timing advance won't be enough to be worth it. It would be cheaper and more beneficial to advance the timing *moderately* and dump in 94 octane or race gas than to run meth full time.

I know you'll find a way to disagree with me but just sit and think about it all and you'll see what we are all talking about. An engine is more than just heat - there is a reason engineers are the ones that design engines and they do it in teams using collective learned knowledge. There is a LOT to consider when it comes to the design of one, and while your focus on heat is a good start it's not the entire picture... it's but a slice.

To the OP - Newt has built a fully N/A engine on the same platform as you are looking for - heed his advice. Not only does he speak from extreme experience he understands the ecotec quite well... as much as it is loosely based on the same design as the LD9 it's a shockingly different engine when it comes to how it operates and responds to modifications. (i.e ecotecs for some reason just love to run lean... whereas an LD9 will make you pay for running even just a little bit too lean. LD9's respond very favorably to head modifications and ecotecs get gains from them but not to the same degree. Etc etc.)

I guess that wasn't brief after all.

-Chris-


haha you make it sound like i take things the wrong way (sarcasm, i know i do. )

in all that you still dont understand what im trying to get at. at no point have i ever suggested to "ramp up the advance" til you cant any further cuz it "must" be best. lol yes lets put 75 in the cell and put the pedal down haha no thats not even close to what i mean.

im trying to say this, basically... j-body owners (for the most part) lack vision and imagination. some just do the advance til they feel its "enough" but yet have no proof on a dyno that their "opinion" of whats best truly is BEST. what ive always proposed is getting to that very envelope of power and passion. combined one can do some great things. most j-body owners just fall short and do the minimum.

now, with that said... i know that you are supposed to add timing until it stops creating more power and back it off. with meth injection (or e85) one can certainly go above and beyond what most j-body owners have tinkered with as far as timing advance. i dont know where you pull that i think timing is the end all be all of the world out of but that is certainly not true. timing DOES however make some vast improvement in cars. ESPECIALLY boosted ones. so if you have meth and you wanna go out of the box so to speak and go further than that average j-body enthusiast seems to want to be stuck in, i say absolutely... @!#$n go for it!

and lol, yes i do know that heat builds power. i had to listen to my dad cry about that any time id talk to him about running methanol. but, like ive already said in this thread, meth/water injection is not JUST for cooling and also not JUST for an octane boost. cooler iat's mean more power. this is a fact. more octane allows the use of more timing and means more power. this is a fact. its just the grey area as to where the line is drawn to be past where any gains are made that is to be determined.

proof is in the pudding. until the day comes along that someone has sat on the dyno for hours, tweaking their timing ON METH til it knocks and/or shows zero gains, i wont be believing a single soul's "opinion" on what X car did at X time on X amount of this or that.

edit : (and by "ON METH" i mean using it to its fullest advantage. not just a puny 175cc nozzle spraying for a mere 2 psi or 3000 rpm lol)




Edited 2 time(s). Last edited Monday, August 12, 2013 8:07 PM


RIP silver car. You will be missed.
Re: Pure NA Project
Monday, August 12, 2013 8:18 PM
There was a reason I got rid of the 2200. Too much hassle. I'd try to keep that up there on the list of possibilities.


Edited 1 time(s). Last edited Monday, August 12, 2013 8:19 PM


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