Basic and Optional Gauge incompatibility - Page 2 - First Generation Forum

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Re: Basic and Optional Gauge incompatibility
Friday, February 03, 2012 4:36 AM
My weekend is filling up, but I am going to try to get out to Parts Galore before the Super Bowl...





Re: Basic and Optional Gauge incompatibility
Saturday, February 04, 2012 6:30 AM
Family should always comes 1st!! Have a wonderful weekend all!!



Re: Basic and Optional Gauge incompatibility
Tuesday, February 07, 2012 4:29 AM
This will come in handy for some of us Jbody owners Installing an aftermarket Tachometer on a Distributorless Ignition System









Re: Basic and Optional Gauge incompatibility
Friday, February 10, 2012 9:52 PM
I dont know if this was posted on not. I did not read everything. If you try to install a v6 cluster with tach in a 4cyl cluster or vice versa it will to work properly. Each have there own guages. That tachs are calibrated differently. You have to get them for the size engine you have.



On the inside my car looks like a fighter jet.
Re: Basic and Optional Gauge incompatibility
Saturday, February 11, 2012 5:21 AM
Thank-You Rob!!
So , so glad to encounter someone that has some knowledge of this!!
I remembered a similar situation on the old Ford Mustang II's (they had a switch on the back of them to select number of cylinders), and was wondering what the deal was with the J's regarding this.
Is there a way to tell if said tach can be identified between the the 4 or 6?

Also, can anyone give me a clue where I might locate the "Tach Filter" . At this point I'm at a loss what it looks like and where it is located.

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Re: Basic and Optional Gauge incompatibility
Saturday, February 11, 2012 1:58 PM
Orlen go to page 502 of your manual it shows the location of thee tach filter i also have an almost complete dash cluster from an 84 sunbird (turbo ) minus oil gage you are more than welcome to it if you need it . Let me know .
Keith


[IMG]
Re: Basic and Optional Gauge incompatibility
Saturday, February 11, 2012 2:35 PM
From what I have found there is no way to change the the gauges from 4cyl to 6cyl. I guess you will have to plug it in a see if it is right. You may be able to just swap the rpm gauge itself but that would still require a correct gauge cluster.

I am sure someone over at v6z24 maybe able to help you with this.



On the inside my car looks like a fighter jet.
Re: Basic and Optional Gauge incompatibility
Saturday, February 11, 2012 3:15 PM
Thanks Keith!!

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When to said page, and Bang On!! Thanks to Paul94Z28 encouragement, I've acquired Factory Shop manuals for both of my J's ('84Sunbird & '86 Cavalier) - must say they have been a Godsend!! :-) I also dug into the Chevy manual and located the locations and appearance of those filters as well!! Unfortunately the full gauge donors I've got at my local haunt are mostly older 2 headlight Cavaliers 4 cyl., so I'll have to do the best I can with what I've got. Paul scored one out of a Cimarron, but is unsure if it is a 4 or 6 cyl. at this time.

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Keith, drop me a line at ( lovemystarlite00@aol.com ) - I'd be delighted to score your gauge pack, we'll work out a deal!! :-)


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Rob, thanks for the heads up regarding the 4 cyl.& 6 cyl.. A warm idle ought to give the suspect tach a thumbs up or down when the time comes. I look forward to discovering the nuances of that when the time comes. Hopefully I'll be able to do a good bit of swapping around and discover what makes those gauges tick.

Thanks to everyone for their inputs!! You all are making this project such an enjoyable journey!! :-)


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Re: Basic and Optional Gauge incompatibility
Saturday, February 18, 2012 6:46 PM
Ok .....thought I'd give an update of what I've learned so far....

I've been able to locate 4 different gauge designs. Here they are :



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Here is the Basic design for reference...



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....and here is the optional cluster we all know....:



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Here is a cluster with all engine gauges minus a Tach (photo courtesy of John Masson):



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...and here is the Pontiac Turbo cluster. I don't think Chevy or Caddy had a turbo, and while Buick & Olds did, they had completely different dashes . NOTE: this cluster ditches the "Volts" gauge to make room for the "Boost" Gauge.



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So far I've collected 3 different temp sensors - the one on the right is reportedly the gauge sensor...



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This is the oil pressure sensor :



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And here is the Tach filter. What this does is smooth out the ignition pulses into a smoother DC voltage that can drive the gauge.



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I'm going to try using a 9v transistor battery to test out the different gauges on the cluster I decide to use. I'm betting such a small amount of power should give me enough gauge movement to see I've got a correct connection,while protecting circuits from too much power in case I hook something up backwards as I test the gauges & lights. While I can use the factory manual to work with the wiring in the vehicle, each gauge is going to be specific to the make and model it cam out of.
That's it for now, will be back later when I get some more information. :-)



Re: Basic and Optional Gauge incompatibility
Saturday, February 18, 2012 8:28 PM
Cool stuff and maybe you can consolidate things as u learn and do a quick tutorial video when all is finished.Would be another cool thing so we can build a vid collection of first gen things to know that is not avail generally.



Re: Basic and Optional Gauge incompatibility
Friday, February 24, 2012 5:03 PM
My oh my , GM really went out of their way to make wiring a nightmare back in the '80s.
Thanks to Paul, I've now got the IC pigtail, and can get a real good look at what should be identical pigtails. I've got a cluster and pigtail from my local yard - '86 Cimirron. Paul's came out of an '85 Cimarron. Both are 2.0, but while mine was a 5 speed, Paul's was an auto.
Close inspection revealed one connection had 2 wires , while the other had just one. One wire was pink on one pigtail, and purple on the other at the another location. I'm not sure that you'd be able to swap these 2 clusters up between Caddys and have everything work perfectly - a nuisance!
I have been amazed at all the differences I've encountered along the way working on these clusters. When you study all these differences among what were supposed to be "badge engineered" models, it becomes clear GM spent a lot of unnecessary money. For instance, I found that the front fenders between the base and top models of the Sunbirds cannot be swapped because of the turn signal light location - ridiculous!! I believe these kinds of decisions across the entire fleet GM manufactured , contributed to their demise and bankruptcy.
So what I've learned is , you have to take these things in stride. If you want to swap in full instruments, just get you a nice cluster and just rewire it up. If you have trouble with that cluster and have to get another one, be prepared to rewire that up from scratch.
My project gets more informed and moves on!! :-)




Re: Basic and Optional Gauge incompatibility
Saturday, April 21, 2012 6:59 PM
Hello folks!! :-)

Isn't funny how you can back away from a project and over time an idea or 2 will surface when you aren't in any hurry?
Well, I had one of those silly moments during these colder days, and thought when I get around to it, I'd give it a shot.

My idea came upon the issue of that IC Pigtail that is fixed to the dash console instead of the IC itself.


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I started with a drill bit that just will fit inside the rectangular section and drilled out a hole in the pigtail center section between the wiresets. I kept increasing the drill bit sizes till I reached 11/64.



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I did this on both sides as shown.



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Next I fitted the pigtail snugly into the back of the cluster and drilled out the plastic in the cluster, while holding the pigtail in place.



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OK, you know where this is going now. Anyways I went to the hardware store today, and search around for just the right stuff. Here is the list:

2 x #8 x 32 x 2" Stainless Pan Head Screws
2 x #8 x 1/4" Nylon Spacers
2 x #8 Nylon Insert Lock Nuts

Total cost of these little goodies was just $1.65



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The rest of my photos are of the finished project. Now I can remove the mounting bracket inside the dash, and use the extra space for longer wiring to hook everything up away from the dash conveniently. Will update as I get more inspiration...LoL :-)



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Re: Basic and Optional Gauge incompatibility
Saturday, April 21, 2012 8:26 PM
Well that is def interesting to see you def want a different cluster.I sure hope it works and I think I will stay stock on mine(which is how the car is for restore state).Still cool that u have dug into so much to learn how to swap and if all flies right super cool how to swap write up.Your def dedicated to this venture!!!



Re: Basic and Optional Gauge incompatibility
Sunday, March 24, 2013 6:41 PM
i just picked up a cimarron cluster today. i got the tach filter and still need to pick up the other sensors. does anyone have a how to kit on how to put it in my 90? both cars are 4cyl. i also got the wiring pigtail from the other car.
Re: Basic and Optional Gauge incompatibility
Sunday, March 24, 2013 8:20 PM
I never had the fortune to get this to work for me. Decided to go with aftermarket gauges as time and money allowed. There isn't really enough room behind the IC to splice the wires together and have the space to cram all that mess between the firewall and IC. Seems as if you are trying to Swap in a 1st gen IC into a 2nd gen, sounds very challenging!! I expect there to be many differences not the least probably will be all kinds of different color wiring. I know John Masson has a 2.2 in his '84 Vert and working optional gauges, so there is one example of what you are trying to do out there, and it does work. The 2.2 didn't come out till 1990 which is what you are trying to swap into. John didn't do this swap, and I'm not sure if he has access to the person that did. I do know the engine and wiring harness and computer are all together with the 2.2 . What is most important is what car the 2.2 came out of. What kind of gauges did it have in it?

The highest chance of sucess I know of would be to find a 1990 donor with full gauges and 2.2 and your particular transmission - pull wiring harness and IC. Wish I had better information to share with you, and hope you have success with your swap Bryon.



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Re: Basic and Optional Gauge incompatibility
Monday, March 25, 2013 2:07 PM
both cars are auto trans and both have cable driven speedo. i know ive seen it swapped on many sites but no one shares how. so far what ive gotten as info is that you have to swap pins for the connector and install the oil pressure coolant temp sensor and connect them to the ic, what i need to know is what pins need to move and how to install the sensors. i did pull the complete ic and the connector it plugged into.
Re: Basic and Optional Gauge incompatibility
Wednesday, March 27, 2013 3:21 PM
Like Orlen said my brown 84 Cav has a swapped in 92 2.2L with an 87 ECU that was done before I got it.

It came with this I/C (gauges and no tach).



I restored this one that I got from Orlen with a tach and it installed easily and the tach worked with no modifications.


Maybe you will get lucky and the I/C will work just fine with a newer ECU.



Re: Basic and Optional Gauge incompatibility
Thursday, March 28, 2013 11:06 AM
bryon hall wrote:...what i need to know is what pins need to move and how to install the sensors. ...


I did this a long time ago, on an '85 sunbird with the 1.8, an '87 cavalier with a 2.0, and also on a '90 cavalier with the 2.2. I installed the instrument cluster with the tach, oil pressure and temp gauges from an '84 4 cyl. in all three cases.

I found that there seems to be so much variation in the plug pinout on the body harness, that the easiest thing to do is to sit the original cluster from the car you want to install it in side-by-side with the new cluster, and trace each connector. Label what the trace goes to (e.g. LH turn, RH turn, tach send) right on the copper terminal on the back of the cluster with a sharpie. It will take some time, but it is do-able, there are only a max of 16 terminals. Start with the traces that only go to one place, and save the common ones for last (like grounds (-) and lighting (+)).

Then go to the car harness, and write down the wire color and connection ID for each trace you made on the original cluster (e.g. record the wire color for LH turn, finding the matching plug position from your trace on the original cluster). Punch out the harness pins that need to be moved with an awl (stick in the tiny square hole to the center of the harness plug), and you can pretty easily swap the pin order to match the new cluster's requirements. I used the copper clips from an '80 sunbird (GM used that connector on many cars) to add connections for the oil gage, the tach, and the temperature meter; you can use the connectors from a cut-off harness if you wish. I left the oil light, temp idiot light, and [something else I forget] connectors in the original body harness, but removed from the plug itself, and taped them off (so i could switch back if really needed).

Sensor install is pretty easy... oil sender goes in a "t" added to the location of the oil idiot light sender on the firewall-side of the block (on a 2.0/2.2 anyway). Temp sender goes where the temp idiot light is. The tach gets wired to a white wire that runs down to the ignition module on my '87 and '90, I'm not sure what engine you're running. Then you have to run 3 more wires through the firewall to connect to your added terminals, unless you re-use the temp and oil idiot light wires, then you only need 1 new wire.

Sounds confusing, but if you are methodical and careful, it can pretty easily be done. The last car I did this in, I was able to switch over from a manual cluster to the fully-optioned cluster in under 2 hours.

Terry



1987 Chevrolet Cavalier 2-door coupe
with 1996 2.2L MPFI
Re: Basic and Optional Gauge incompatibility
Thursday, March 28, 2013 11:18 AM
i was thinking of doing what ur saying about the traces, line them up and im good. what i was thinking on doing was replacing where the idiot sensors were with the gauge sensors and then reconnecting the wire back up to it. now would that work of will the ecm fault out on it and im just gonna need to run wires for them? i have a 90 2.2 auto trans.
Re: Basic and Optional Gauge incompatibility
Tuesday, April 09, 2013 5:09 PM
i completed the install. everything went well. i picked up a oil pressure sensor for a 90 cav 2.2 with gauge option, replaced the idiot light sensor that came on it. replaced coolant sensor with sensor from doner. added the wire for the tach and was good to go.
Re: Basic and Optional Gauge incompatibility
Tuesday, April 09, 2013 5:34 PM
Congrats Bryon!!

Looks like I'm the Monkeys Uncle, Terry & Bryon!! Guess I'll go off to the corner now and wear the "Dunce" Hat for a spell -

Wish I could change this Thread to "Basic and Optional Gauge Compatibility"



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Re: Basic and Optional Gauge incompatibility
Wednesday, April 10, 2013 7:30 AM
That gives me new-found hope Bryon If you took pictures you ought to do a write-up.








Re: Basic and Optional Gauge incompatibility
Wednesday, April 10, 2013 2:57 PM
theres not much to tell. i traced out all the lines on the new cluster and the old. wrote down the color code for the wires in the connector in the car. i popped the connector out from its holder. popped all of the wires out and placed them where they would need to be for prpoer signals. then like i said i replaced the coolant sensor and oil pressure sensor using the stock plugs. only wire i added was for the tach which i tapped into the white wire feeding ecm. i then popped 1 wire for the spare connector and put it in the cars connector and wired the to together. then i installed the cluster connector into stock location. plugged it in and made sure everything worked and the reinstalled the cluster and i was done. most time was spent tracing out the lines on the cluster. i can post how the connectors for both cars were. i think even the wire color code for both cars was the same but pin locations was the only thing that changed.
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