The swap has started! - Second Generation Forum

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The swap has started!
Thursday, June 16, 2005 7:53 PM
I started the big suspension/brake swap today. I had to put it off for a few days after getting a phone call about possibly going back to Iraq and I didn't want to start it and let it sit for a year before finishing it.

List of new goodies I have already-
3rd gen Koni yellow strut cartridges
Saab 900 Koni yellow shocks (#8041-1191) These are the closest fit, with only some tiny upper mount mods to work.
STS/Bonneville spindles modified to fit J body bearings
STS/Bonneville calipers (front)
Dodge Neon bearings (rear)
Dodge Neon disc setup (rear)
Dodge Neon e-brake cables
Hawk HPS pads all around
Brembo rotors all around
Olds Aurora master cylinder and Summit proportioning valve
3rd gen upper strut mounts (yes, the bolt pattern is exactly the same)

Stuff I still have to work out-
front coilovers (all 3rd gen stuff, except for the threaded sleeve, which has to be a bigger diameter)
rear springs (Afco adjustable perches +/- 2", and 5" springs, I just need to work out the rates)
braided brake lines (just need to have them assembled)

Heres some pics-

(this one sucks, I know)


The new calipers and pads


Rough idea of how the Neon spindle will attach. I'm going to cut out the shape of it in the Cav bearing support. The track width will be 9/16" wider on both sides (which still fits under the fender lip with 215s)


Neon caliper brackets


Koni yellows. The stud on the shock is 12mm (the Cav is 10mm). Its also a tad shorter, so all that needs to be done is enlarge the hole in the mount and cut a bit off the top.


The Aurora master. Also in this pic is my new Flex A Lite fuel cooler. My engine compartment is sooo dirty!


And finally..... the rollbar is done!


I should have everything wrapped up by the middle of next week. Alot of stuff is getting blasted/coated/painted, etc and thats pretty much the only thing I have to wait for right now. Once I finish all this, I'll finish up the new hood.





Re: The swap has started!
Thursday, June 16, 2005 8:55 PM
thats sexy...


...

Re: The swap has started!
Friday, June 17, 2005 5:58 PM
dam james im taking notes i hope you dont mind


Re: The swap has started!
Friday, June 17, 2005 7:45 PM
Those Neon caliper brackets are much smaller than the Chrysler parts that I have. I can't see any park brake linkage on the rear calipers. Does that setup use a park brake shoe?

Fuel cooler on return or supply line?

keep up the good work.

-->Slow
Re: The swap has started!
Sunday, June 19, 2005 3:00 PM
The Neons are drum in disc style e-brake. I thought about this for a while, and it was a toss up between having an aftermarket for "performance" pads and rotors, and having a caliper e-brake. I even thought about a spot caliper and Fiero parts. In the end it all came down to having access to a Neon in decent shape at a yard I frequent with all the parts I needed, and searching through the yards to find something else.

The cooler is on the supply line. Whats your opinion of supply or return?




Re: The swap has started!
Sunday, June 19, 2005 3:33 PM
Quote:

The cooler is on the supply line. Whats your opinion of supply or return?

Either way should help. I installed a cooler on the return line in my '57 Chevy retrofit project. My thinking was to keep heat out of the tank where it will accumulate and to reduce the restrictions between pump and injectors.

I fully understand about using the parts that you can get your hands on. That's what the game is about for most of us.

-->Slow
Re: The swap has started!
Sunday, June 19, 2005 4:53 PM
nice james, i can't wait to see it all at the bash.



| '89 Z24 Auto | '99 Prelude 5spd | '04 GS500F | '05 HD 883L |

Re: The swap has started!
Monday, June 20, 2005 8:31 AM
Jesus dude, you never stop to surprise me with the stuff you do!



Re: The swap has started!
Monday, June 20, 2005 9:09 AM
the rollbar is hot. and the brake conversion is sexy. where's tyrin? he's working on a conversion himself that I was tailing on. this one is nice tho.



Originality and Creativity surpasses Popularity

Re: The swap has started!
Monday, June 20, 2005 6:55 PM
A little update-

1- I dropped off a bunch of stuff at the powder coaters yesterday (about 30 pieces, subframes, inner tie rods, all the brackets/braces I've made since the last time I had stuff coated, even the control arm bushing pins ) Most of it will be gloss black, but some of the stuff I want to highlight will be Chevy Orange to match the engine.

2-I also got the control arms finished up tonight. I pretty much lopped off the ball joint end and fab'ed up a new mounting point for the Bonneville ball joint. I also ran a bead around th entire outside of the arms. I've talked to a couple people that did this and they said it was noticable. We'll just have to wait and see.

3- I finally worked out the rear springs. 5 1/2" x 9" 300lb/in AFCO units on adjustable lower perches. This will require cutting out the factory lower perch (on the axle) and welding in the adjustable perch. And there were so many people who said coil-overs would never work well, I guess they really aren't coil-overs, but they do the same thing.

4- I started re-assembling the interior. FYI to anyone considering a rollbar for a street car. Plan on alot of fitment work for the trim panels. In a perfect world, the bar would only pass through the rear shelf, but since I have a fold down rear seat now, I need to modify the headrest part of them to make it work.




Re: The swap has started!
Tuesday, June 21, 2005 4:27 AM
Oooh... he's gettin "powder coating." lol... very nice.

If you haven't checked/ repaired this already, be sure to look at the cowl under the hood hinges for rust. I've seen this in several 2nd gen J's now, and it's not usually noticed until it's a major problem.

You've probably seen how much some of the factory control arms can twist. Welding the LCA should help.

Hmmm... Think about the rear wheels/ axle and the relationship there. Pushing on the side of the wheel, simulating cornering forces, should really tend to lay that wheel sideways introducing negative camber. While your cutting/ grinding/ welding you might want to think about jointed rods connected from rear wheel bearing area, up high, to central point on the body or axle beam to resist those forces or even introduce positive camber during large amounts of suspension travel.

Also, a friend of mine mentioned that "Del -a- lum" bushings are actually an industrial bushing/ bearing and are fairly inexpensive when bought that way. Justa fyi.

-->Slow

Re: The swap has started!
Thursday, June 23, 2005 7:23 PM
My cowl is beautiful. When I started hearing about rot in the corners a few years ago, I went ahead and cleaned them right out. No rot for me!

As far as the bearing plates on the axle moving- I already have the Mantapart K brace which consists of two Heim jointed rods going from the lower shock bolt to the center of the axle. I wish I had a pic of it, once its all back together I'll snap one.

Where would I use the "Del a Lum" bushings? They sound like an aluminum bshings instead of rubber.

And some more updates-

1- all the brake hardware showed up the other day. Most of this stuff is from www.pegasusautoracing.com, a company that specializes in road racing parts/supplies.

These are the Goodridge -3AN braided lines. They are not a direct replacement piece. The little thing at the bottom is the 3/8x24 to -3AN adapter with a tab to weld/rivet it to the car.


I needed some way to mount the proprtioning valve and SSBC pressure gauge, so I used a few AN and NPT fittings. This isn't the final arrangement.


The only thing left on the brake system is distribution blocks.

2- I had to abandon the sleeve plan to mount the Cav bearing on the Bonneville spindle. The biggest issue was where the bolt hole would have been to mount the Cav bearing. They would have been half in the sleeve (machined steel) and half in the spindle (cast). Not the best thing for strength IMO. I tossed several ideas around, including using a caliper adapter bracket on the Cav spindle. Now I'm working on using the outer race of the Bonneville bearing and the inner race of the Cav bearing. I'm almost positive this is going to be the best way.

3- The springs are all in. Keep in mind I didn't use adjustable ride height springs to drop the car, I used them so I can corner weight it.-

This is what I ordered from Ground Control. Its all spec'd to be 3rd gen, except the sleeve, which is 56mm instead of whatever the 3rd gen is (52mm I think).


This is the whole setup, using 3rd gen strut mounts, 3rd gen Koni yellows, and the Ground Control coil-overs. The factory spring perch is in the same location on 2nd and 3rd gens, the only difference between the struts is the steering arm and diameter. I may just do a How-To for this project in the future.


These are the rear springs and adjustable perches from AFCO.


I torched out part of the axle and welded the new perches right in. These are an 8" spring, so it will already sit lower (about an inch) than on the Eibach Pro-Kit and still be able to go lower.


4- I have a bunch of stuff out at the powder coaters (since I really hate rust). Most of it will be gloss black, but a few select pieces will be Chevy Orange to match the engine.


Unfortunately, I had planned to have it all finished up by this weekend, but alas, no can do. I have everything I need to put it back together except the most important parts...bearings.



Re: The swap has started!
Friday, June 24, 2005 8:25 AM
Wow, You've been busy while I was gone. Could you still use the third gen coil overs and sutch with a pre 91 upper strut mount, cause my car is a 89 so I dont have the same strut bolt pattern as the third gens. I cant wait until you get that how to done
I like what you did with the rear springs thats a good idea, I like the adjustable perch's. I was thinking of putting a roll bar in my car cause I also auto X but with the car being a two door if someone ever needed to get into the back it would be to much of a pain.
Its going to be funny when you go to buy brake pads or new shocks and you ask for parts of like eight diffrent cars, the guys will think your nuts, lol
good luck with it




Re: The swap has started!
Friday, June 24, 2005 5:18 PM
You could easily use the 3rd gne upper mounts. All you have to do is drill new holes in the strut tower. Everything else is dimensionally the same. I don't worry too much about people getting into my back seat, since I rarely even have someone in the passenger seat . I'm more concerned about fitting my overnight bag and tool box back there.




Re: The swap has started!
Friday, June 24, 2005 8:24 PM
Quote:

I already have the Mantapart K brace which consists of two Heim jointed rods going from the lower shock bolt to the center of the axle. I wish I had a pic of it, once its all back together I'll snap one.

Cool. Are those mounting points for the outboard end of the brace in the pics above?

Quote:

Where would I use the "Del a Lum" bushings? They sound like an aluminum bushings instead of rubber.

Absolutely. It's a brand name sold by Global West to replace poly or rubber suspension bushings. They're much sturdier than poly bushings, but the tradeoff is additional noise and vibration transmitted to the chassis.

You've motivated me to start swapping the larger brakes into the Sunbird. If I have time I may even look at the rear discs.

What about having the larger bearings/ hubs redrilled? Or taking apart a Cavvy bearing and using the hub with a sleeve to fit inside the Olds inner races? Just some thoughts I had while cleaning and painting some J car steering knuckles.

-->Slow
Re: The swap has started!
Saturday, June 25, 2005 7:51 PM
slowolej wrote:

Cool. Are those mounting points for the outboard end of the brace in the pics above?


Yup. Theres also a bracket welded to the center of the axle for the other end. The kit comes as a bolt on, but everything kept loosening up, so i welded it all on.

slowolej wrote:

Absolutely. It's a brand name sold by Global West to replace poly or rubber suspension bushings. They're much sturdier than poly bushings, but the tradeoff is additional noise and vibration transmitted to the chassis.


Very cool! Unfortunately, my class rules don't allow solid bushings. I can't even change the amount of metal relative to the other material (either rubber or poly).

slowolej wrote:

What about having the larger bearings/ hubs redrilled? Or taking apart a Cavvy bearing and using the hub with a sleeve to fit inside the Olds inner races? Just some thoughts I had while cleaning and painting some J car steering knuckles.

-->Slow


I considered redrilling, but it creates two issues- 1) the bearing has balance holes in it, and the stud holes would be quite close to both of them and the access hole for the bolts to the spindle, and 2) it would require swapping the outer CV to the Bonneville one since the spline is bigger. Several people have done it, but I didn't want to buy another set of axles and then still have the same bolt pattern problem.

I really wish I had pics of the following!!!!!!-

I dissasembled the two bearings (Cav and Bonneville). The factory Cav bearing is a cast outer race, with an attached inner race. The wheel side (hub) presses into the inner race, so its actually three pieces (not counting the roller balls). The aftermarket Cav bearings are similar, but the hub is actually the inner race and there is a cap press fit onto the inside end of the spline. I only had the factory Bonneville bearings to take apart. They are a simple design. The hub is the inner race, and the outer race bolts to the spindle. There are some keepers to hold the roller balls in and they have an exciter wheel for the ABS press fit over them.

The inside diamter of the Bonneville outer race is very close to the outside diameter of the Cav outer race (if that makes sense). I decided to turn off the triangle flange on the Cav bearing and press it into the outer race off the Bonneville. I had originally planned on reaming out the inside of the Bonneville inner race and turning down the outside of the Cav one, then finding a bearing to fit. By using the sealed bearing, I don't expect to have any issues.

If you plan on being out this way in the near future, shoot me an email and I'll be glad to show you all the goodies. I'll have them back from the machine shop sometime mid-next week and I'll be doing final assembly soon after that.




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