The Correct Control Arms for Handling. - Page 2 - Suspension and Brake Forum

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Re: The Correct Control Arms for Handling.
Friday, March 07, 2014 3:27 PM
I used to be in the professional automive industry and I learned from a young age that it is, was, and always will be a profit driven industry and they will do and say anything to make a buck. That's why NASCAR doesn't employ jiffy lube workers, they choose those who understand how geometry works in relation to suspension and the multiple forces that affect the ride characteristics. Take a page from them. Do you think they need to do an alignment after a direct swap of the same part? NO because it was engineered to be the same as the part they were replacing without having to worry about dimensional compatibility. The part may is made in a jig with the same specs that the manufacturers have bought from GM. If you want to debut this further pm me and I'll give you me number and draw you diagrams.

Re: The Correct Control Arms for Handling.
Friday, March 07, 2014 4:02 PM
TopFuel wrote:

Toe In would be the case if the steering rack was located in front of the ball joint. When the steering rack is located aft of the ball joint and the ball joint is extended out from the center point of the lateral center between the two ball joints, it will cause the wheels to point toe out. not toe in!


Oops, you are right, I have worked mostly on trucks in my years with the tie rods in the front.


2000 Cavalier Z24 5spd - Intake, Dynomax muffler, Hawk Pads, Powerslot rotors, Sportlines/Koni reds, Neon Coil, MSD 8.5 Wires - **SOLD**
2014 Kia Forte Koup SX 6spd - 1.6L Turbo - My new car
2015 Kia Sorento EX V6 AWD - Wifes Car

Re: The Correct Control Arms for Handling.
Friday, March 07, 2014 4:28 PM
your picture indicates that the mounting point of the steering rack : the tie rod, is just inside and forward of the tire... this is a picture of an F1/Indy-car chassis if my memory serves correct. therefore in your picture, the steering rack will be located in FRONT of the ball joint not BEHIND the ball joint as is the case with all j-body's, or any other FWD vehicle. if you move the ball joint away from the vertical center-line (with the steering rack forward of the ball joint) then it would cause negative toe or "toe in"... not positive to angle. the aluminum control arms left installed without an alignment will cause a positive toe or "toe out" remember, your toes point forward not behind you that's why they call it a "toe angle"

as for PMSing... i refuse to let people have the wrong information, i get irritated when some folks try to pass off what they have heard as the truth. i've done my darn research and had the training. i'm not the expert but if i'm i've done it to my J or put it on my J then... just like the info PJ has posted about what does and doesn't work, trust what i'm telling you. i don't want the wrong information out there! DO YOUR OWN RESEARCH!
Re: The Correct Control Arms for Handling.
Friday, March 07, 2014 4:31 PM
TopFuel wrote:

I used to be in the professional automive industry and I learned from a young age that it is, was, and always will be a profit driven industry and they will do and say anything to make a buck. That's why NASCAR doesn't employ jiffy lube workers, they choose those who understand how geometry works in relation to suspension and the multiple forces that affect the ride characteristics. Take a page from them. Do you think they need to do an alignment after a direct swap of the same part? NO because it was engineered to be the same as the part they were replacing without having to worry about dimensional compatibility. The part may is made in a jig with the same specs that the manufacturers have bought from GM. If you want to debut this further pm me and I'll give you me number and draw you diagrams.


I agree, most people are just trying to make a profit, in some cases though, it can cover the service shop's ass if they do an alignment after they touch the front end, even though the part they replace may have no affect on the actual alignment (whether it was bang on or out a little before the part was replaced). What if the someone has a car that needs a new ball joint but also hit a curb hard and throw the alignment out a little. They now go back to the shop and complain that the car is pulling this way or tires are wearing funny, etc. If you are smart enough to work on your own car, you probably know the cond. of certain parts and the alignment so that's why when people replace struts or a arms, etc, themselves, they don't get (or need) alignments. You said you work in the NDT industry? Do you deal with radiation? Not sure how it works where your from but radiation dosimeters (and sometimes other equipment) need to have calibration checked once a year(not necessarily calibrated but checked to see if its within its required limits). Sometimes a alignment is not adjusting stuff on a car but just to check that it is still with in its required limits.

As for the Nascar, I am no Nascar expert but I would think that a Race car would have multiple adjustment points so they can dial in an alignment perfect for how the driver wants, also I would think that a A arm on a race car would have adjustment points on it, which would require an alignment to get it in the same spot as the old a arm was in. I could be wrong but I decided to GOOGLE IT. Just read the titles of the first few links.... Again, I am no expert about Nascar and don't really care about Nascar but something tells me that they may in fact need alignments. now if they are in the middle of a race and something happens to affect the alignment, I am sure they don't care as much and just want to finish the race as quickly as they can.


2000 Cavalier Z24 5spd - Intake, Dynomax muffler, Hawk Pads, Powerslot rotors, Sportlines/Koni reds, Neon Coil, MSD 8.5 Wires - **SOLD**
2014 Kia Forte Koup SX 6spd - 1.6L Turbo - My new car
2015 Kia Sorento EX V6 AWD - Wifes Car

Re: The Correct Control Arms for Handling.
Friday, March 07, 2014 4:44 PM
TopFuel wrote:

your picture indicates that the mounting point of the steering rack : the tie rod, is just inside and forward of the tire... this is a picture of an F1/Indy-car chassis if my memory serves correct. therefore in your picture, the steering rack will be located in FRONT of the ball joint not BEHIND the ball joint as is the case with all j-body's, or any other FWD vehicle. if you move the ball joint away from the vertical center-line (with the steering rack forward of the ball joint) then it would cause negative toe or "toe in"... not positive to angle. the aluminum control arms left installed without an alignment will cause a positive toe or "toe out" remember, your toes point forward not behind you that's why they call it a "toe angle"

as for PMSing... i refuse to let people have the wrong information, i get irritated when some folks try to pass off what they have heard as the truth. i've done my darn research and had the training. i'm not the expert but if i'm i've done it to my J or put it on my J then... just like the info PJ has posted about what does and doesn't work, trust what i'm telling you. i don't want the wrong information out there! DO YOUR OWN RESEARCH!



As I said before, I have worked on many trucks with the tie rods in the front so I had the image in my head as the rods being in the front.


***ATTENTION ALL JBODY OWNERS***

Disregard my post where I said Alum arms would cause toe in as it was incorrect.




There, now can we stop talking about the toe in/out and tie rod locations, I think we covered it.



2000 Cavalier Z24 5spd - Intake, Dynomax muffler, Hawk Pads, Powerslot rotors, Sportlines/Koni reds, Neon Coil, MSD 8.5 Wires - **SOLD**
2014 Kia Forte Koup SX 6spd - 1.6L Turbo - My new car
2015 Kia Sorento EX V6 AWD - Wifes Car

Re: The Correct Control Arms for Handling.
Friday, March 07, 2014 6:04 PM
Ah don't stop now. I like this going back n forth. Some of us (me) are learning alot from this.
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