in my mind i was thinking of welding the whole assembly, not just the middle beam. it is said in a book i read that if a car has over 59% of the weight at the front of the car then the rear sway bar should be stiff enough to lift the inside rear tire. like zach above. not as exaggerated though(nice pic).
the reason being is that the tire's effectiveness is directly related to the amount of load pushing down on it. so if the tire has all the weight on it then it will work to it's maximum. just don't over drive the tire. unless you actually get into weight transfer and cross balancing, the inside tire doesn't do that much in cornering with the j-body set-up.
i understand the function of the tie bar, but if there is alot of difference in the flex(up/down), then the tie bar may cause adverse effects. then again i didn't engineer the j-body so i don't know the dynamics of the rear assembly.
i guess the deeper question is: are the effects that people experience with the tie bar actually helping them, and not just some placebo effect. or them assuming since something has changed then the change is good.
Well, I pulled mine off because it made the car oversteer really bad on quick transitions or if ever tried applying the brake during any kind of cornering. I have since upgraded my blown shocks and springs to AGX's and H&R's, so I'm not sure what its going to do now. Will have to throw it on this weekend and do a little testing
.
Basically, if your looking for some oversteer after adding a rear sway bar I would reccomend the tie bar-simpe as that. Like Art said, it helps the sway bar to operate more effeciently. It has a dramatic effect on your suspension if you ask me, definately not a placebo.
jpo96sungt wrote:in my mind i was thinking of welding the whole assembly, not just the middle beam. it is said in a book i read that if a car has over 59% of the weight at the front of the car then the rear sway bar should be stiff enough to lift the inside rear tire. like zach above. not as exaggerated though(nice pic).
the reason being is that the tire's effectiveness is directly related to the amount of load pushing down on it. so if the tire has all the weight on it then it will work to it's maximum. just don't over drive the tire. unless you actually get into weight transfer and cross balancing, the inside tire doesn't do that much in cornering with the j-body set-up.
i understand the function of the tie bar, but if there is alot of difference in the flex(up/down), then the tie bar may cause adverse effects. then again i didn't engineer the j-body so i don't know the dynamics of the rear assembly.
i guess the deeper question is: are the effects that people experience with the tie bar actually helping them, and not just some placebo effect. or them assuming since something has changed then the change is good.
one thing though... lifting the rear tire in a turn can hurt traction.... the weight now relies on the traction of 3 wheels as opposed to 4, granted the weight and force will be different, all 4 to the ground is more optimal to lessen the chance of spinouts.
if a car is setup, the inside rear tire can make a hella differnce, no doubt.
there shouldnt be alot of difference in flex in most cases. if you get a chance jack up one side. with my swaybar, addco 25.4, theres maybe a few inches of difference. when the driver side compresses, the swaybar moves up, on the passenger side the swaybar attempts to lift, not press down the side thats jacked up. hence it doesnt overextend as much as it would without a swaybar.
after 3 years of autoX and adding and removing em, different swaybars, etc... i can say its not a placebo effect.
a tie bar makes the same function as a strut brace, more consistent handling. nothing more. nothing less.
same as when the strut brace keeps the towers together, and makes the handling more predictable...also lets the struts and spring do their job with less slop...so does the tie bar, the subframe braces, the rear tie bar, etc...
sa
Zach wrote:Bad grammar annoys me.
Dude, I am with you there...It really annoys the hell out of me and people on here post like they have not had a day of school in their life.
Meh...just a pet peeve of mine...I know I am not perfect...
-da chinchilla
<img src="http://registry.gmenthusiast.com/images/jiggamon/avatar15569_2.gif">
don't let this post die !!
Event how much room for adjustment do you have with the set up you have right now. the reason I'm asking is i got my mounting plates cut and I'm a 1/2 longer than prescribed I have a 2 x 2 x 4 x 1/4 instead of 2 x 2 x 3.5 x 1/4.
Will I be able to adjust that extra inch?
I don't have the bar and heim joints yet, darn mail. I'm thinking I will have to cut off a 1/2 inch on each end of the rod, but I hope not.
well depending on what length you ordered the rod, you might have to snip some. my rod is 35 inches....no pun intended.....and i have maybe 1/2 inch or so adjustment out from all the way in on the joints.
depending on where you drill at, will make the ultimate choice on how long of a rod you order.
Well i just got off the phone with the folks over at Rod End Supply and ordered up a couple 3/8x3/8-24 thread rod ends, one is left hand thread and associated jam nuts for each and a 36in long by 3.4 diameter aluminum rod threraded for 3/8-24 thread. Not sure how long it will take to get here, but in a few weeks ill be ordering the addco front and rear 25.4mm sway bars and will install everything at once, then my suspension will be complete and finished.
Thanks for this post Event, this is one thing i have been wanting to do for a long time.
Mike
1992 GMC Sonoma GT #492. Oh, Its just a stock V6!
1999 Cavalier Coupe, daily driver, 2200/M5. Mods and pics are in my registry.
Sombody Needs to Make me a cool Sig, Because im Sig Challenged!
Support the site that supports your habit, Go Premium.
Im premium since January, but why doesnt it say that?????
well most rods are aluminum, and being that i have crushed a pineapple, then a coconut bare handed..... might not be much a challenge, unless you gave me scissors...
1/2 steel rod....god made bolt cutters my man.
Think you can do it with tin snips?
to be honest, prob not, but i can almost garuntee i;d break the snips first
with the amount of tools i;ve snapped, bent or broken in the last year alone, i hold little faith in things not breaking, including craftsmen.
Dam-it Muffins (Event) wrote:well most rods are aluminum, and being that i have crushed a pineapple, then a coconut bare handed..... might not be much a challenge, unless you gave me scissors...
1/2 steel rod....god made bolt cutters my man.
DDDaaaaaaaaayyyyymmmmmmm
I used to break ratchets, Sears ask me not to come back
Buying Husky now anyway, half the cost and the same warranty. and I'm wondering if my torque wrench will live another year, I almost lifted the car off the jack stand when I did Dirtyelfs Koni install. go figure.
i would be using a dremmel to cut any length off if I need to. i was going to drill the holes for the bar while I wait, but I think I will hold off until it gets here then non of this will matter.
heres something useful I found while looking for parts. feel free to copy it I did
<img src="http://216.77.188.54/coDataImages/p/Groups/221/221110/folders/176882/1550219findrodlenght.jpg" width="470" height="278">
Mabey I overlooked something here but I have a question. I have the RKSport 22mm bar and want to know if a tie bar will work with little or no fabrication. Which location would be better for mounting on that bar? Also if someone has one already what length radius rod did you use?
"Straightline performance isnt everything!"
event... how much of a difference are we talking between the addco setup in the first picture and your setup... i'm just wondering because i already have a strut tower bar that's not being used currently that i've checked the length on and seems to be a perfect candidate. it would just be a matter of picking up some heim joints and bolting it up... is it really worth the extra effort to have the brackets fabbed up?
Hey there Cinny,
See you've found the radius rod info too.
Been using them since even on my first Z that got wrecked.
Good pieces.
Meantime, where o where are the 1 inch Helwig rear sway bars.
-M
Remember....syringes go in the RED waste basket.
yeah i found it pretty quick, now if I could set aside the time to put it all together. did they make a 1 inch bar for a J ? I was thinking there was only the 19mm one. and I have only seen pictures of that one.
Event do you have the Addco on your ride? I checked your registry but everything is top secret in there. I have the RK bar I think it's 22mm, and I'm look into getting an upgrade front and rear.
very good post, i have the addco rear sway and i was thinking that i could take the short L brackets that are in the kit and weld on 2" of flat bar to either side of them with a hole drilled to replicate the Hellwig setup as it was stated it is a little more efficient, does doing what i propose make sense ? i have access to the welder and materials....
it makes sense, mainly because you make a solid mounting point. its a direct connection to the trailing arm.
is the relationship in size of the bar similar to that of the sway bars?
IE: thinner bar more flex - thicker bar less flex?
Cinny wrote:is the relationship in size of the bar similar to that of the sway bars?
IE: thinner bar more flex - thicker bar less flex?
there can be, up to a certain extent, and also the shape of the bar...
like its given, a flat bar is gonna flex. especially under torsion.
a circular bar or square bar is more ideal, but ideal to make it a hollow bar, as a solid bar adds too much weight.
as for size of the bar, a bar thats 1 full inch across or 1 inch in diameter is just about right. 1/14 or something larger than 1 inch, can be used but starts to go a bit overboard. using a 3/8-1/2 inch diam bar is far questionable about strength.
a 1 inch diam bar is used on many applications of suspension (ranging from panhard, tie bar, 4 link, and steering rod and holds up to 3600lbs+ vehicles and the stress they can put em though. also its light in weight as well. the end links combined will more than likely weight more than the bar itself.
so overall answer, it is, up to a certain point. with a swaybar, the thicker, the stiffer it keeps getting until the point of not allowing any movement at all (like if someone made a 60mm swaybar -extreme example-)
but with a tie bar, once you get to a certain point, size going upwards is mainly gonna be overkill.
I have the Progress rear sway bar and that's of a different design than the Addco (and from the looks of things, the Hellwig as well). I'll probably need to post pics of the attachment point of the bar... anyone attempt to rig a tie bar w/ that sway bar?
you can do it... mainly the same way teamforwardmotion.com shows the addco bar and the control fx.
all you have to do is measure and buy parts.
The bar I have doesn't have the "downrigging" that the Addco has. It has the angle bracket w/ the bar welded directly to it... Using the TFM method might not work (clearance issue on the driver's side) since I'll have to run the bracket facing the rear bumper to get the tiebar installed... I'll get some pics tomorrow...
