FraGmE wrote:just my opinion but I never found the tie bar to add much to the rear. getting a sway bar to match the front worked better for me
Now if you could add more weight to the rear of the cavalier or any front driver/front engine car then I think it would handle awesome (with swaybars, strut bars and good struts/springs of course). with mine you could turn really fast but the ass end would sometimes come up on the car...maybe its bad driving lol i dunno but seems that too much weight up front and not enuff in the rear is a more serious problem then adding a tie bar when u already have a sway bar..again just my uneducated opinion
Fragme, swaybars and tie bars are two different support systems that offer OPPOSITE results.
you cant compare a swaybar with a strut brace... one is designed to flex but add resistance vertically, the other is to keep the strut towers from flexing inward, laterally
same goes for comparing swaybars to a tie bar.... there is no comparison. sways still flex and add resistance vertically, tie bars keep the toe constant during hard cornering. with the picture josh put up there, in hard cornering, like those of use who compete in autoX, you roll through the turn, the outside wheels get the most deflection. the rear axle does flex in giving rear outside wheel TOE OUT. the outside wheels always take the most force. its the resistance pushing off in the turn.
the inside rear wheel generally tracks straight.
tie bars make it so it all stays straight. not one flexing in under hard cornering. the rear has more then enough weight. or if you dont autoX go for a ride along with someone who will push their j-body. i;ve seen vids posted in the racing forum of j-body spin outs over the years.
Joshua wrote:Anyway, I like the tie bar idea but I dont like how it can limit the independant vertical wheel flex of the beam, not saying its much but it could be enough to wear out the thread on the endlinks when the tie bar gets stretched.
so what do you think a swaybar does? it limits vertical wheel flex of the beam, hence keeping the car more flat. however a trailing arm isnt gonna be able to flex to the limits you exaggerated. a tie bar does NOT get stretched.
the idea you posted is good, dont get me wrong. problem is, with most swaybars they attach to the trailing arm with the u bolts, or like the progress swaybar which attaches to that entire side of the trailing arm.
if you produced something like that, gotta make it compatible with most swaybars... it not a bad idea, but off course, 2 brackets thick enough, 2 rods, and then 4 heim joints.... the price will obviously be higher. and realistically, around here, no one likes to pay for anything thats of quality.
just givin ya a heads up.
but like said, good design... there are a few designs similar to that in most any book on chassis suspension design.
**** disclaimer***
what i am about to say may offend some, however it is truth. its not directed to anyone i just posted to....
realistically, most people dont drive hard enough on a regular basis to warrant use of a tie bar.... i;ve seen many people on this forum add parts to their car, that they really have no use for.
for example....people who drag race mainly, have no use for a tie bar.... you dont take turns. so hearing (NOT SAYING FRAGME) some of the people who are known for fast straight line cars say, this works, or doesnt work is like asking a 4 year old about paying bills.
autoXers have no use for drag slicks of wheelie bars.... or skinny rear tires.
seeing some drag racers on here with the largest swaybars available is like an oxymoron. can anyone imagine a female gymnast going to the olympics in warren sapps full football gear, pads and all?
if drag racing is your bag, and you dont really autoX....whats the point. its like the idiot at capitol raceway, locally, who stated "i dont autoX cause it burns through tires too quick"
then you dont need the largest swaybars. you dont like burning tires from constant left-right racing. you dont push it hard on the street, and you mainly just dragrace...
alot of people here simply add parts, just cause
1) they are available
2) its the newest thing being posted about
and
3) its a new product.
most people who will say" well a swaybar creates the most effect...."
obviously this is true, but not all the time in suspension are you trying to get the largest effect.
thats the thing when tuning suspension. its no different than an engine. the majority of people will never do it, just pretend to do it and make lots of posts about they added this this and that, so what do they add next. take time to learn about your car and about suspension and general, and you will know exactly what to add next.
retouching the engine analogy, if a guy with a turbo feels he doesnt get upper rpm pull, first though would be whats resticting me? the exhaust, wastegate, etc. if you tune your car in any facet, you learn "whats next"
when you have a bare stock engine sitting there. the majority of people who work on cars would call someone a pure idiot if they made a statement such as
"sure the biggest amount of power would be simply slap the largest turbo on there the exhaust can power and you'll have the fastest cavalier."
reason? much more will go into making the fastest cavalier. such as bracing, and other smaller supporting parts...the engine and the chassis.
thats where tie bars, subframe braces, strut bars come in. these are braces people. they arent made to produce a large effect. so dont expect that from em. the majority of people on this site prob wont have a use for any bracing. most dont race.
they simply increase the accuracy and efficiency of the rest of the suspension. dont go out looking for braces to make a large difference. when you add a roll cage for chassis stability and safety... you know you have the safety...
however, it doesnt make the chassis lighter. doesnt make the car a super car.
it merely makes the chassis rigid enough to where the suspension does its job as fully as possible.
i have 2 tie bars, one for the 25.4mm swaybar, one for the 22mm bar. i normally dont use my tie bar daily. they are in the house. however when i go to compete in scca sanctioned autoX events, i add the tie bar. i dont need precision and accuracy traveling through baltimore city roads. most people dont need em to go to school and then come home. or work and then home. half the time most people dont notice anything. cause the rest of the suspension is just thrown together. so you really dont know what to expect to start with...
basically the "everything surprise cake" method.... throw it all in and make guesses on the outcome. sadly this does run rampant on many forums.
so keep in mind, only add what you need or can utlilize. i mean if you feel like adding it, just to put one more thing on your mod list to impress someone, go ahead. but do realize, if you dont drive hard, bracing mods rarely ever get any use. neither does your suspension for that matter.
