Joe, what year cluster is it?
Desert Tuners
“When you come across a big kettle of crazy, it’s best not to stir it.”
It was listed on ebay as 00-04 when I bought it. The clear lense has a scratch in it at the top. I was going to use my cav lense. I plugged it into my cav , It all worked but the gas guage. If you have been reading on here you already know that is what Im trying to fix so the cluster is fine for a J bod.
01 cav w/01 3400 gam gt 4t45e
I was just thinking about your gas gauge problem. I had an issue a few months back where my gauge decided to display the wrong level. probably the sending unit was dying, but it somehow corrected itself.
you're saying that your sending unit is reading correctly, as far as the resistance check. where did you check this at? back by the tank?
does the wires from the sending unit go to the PCM at all? if it does, I'd do another check there as well, to make sure no wires were broken after the motor swap. if they go straight to the cluster, I'd do another reading there as well.
the only other thing I can think of, is since you're trying to use a J-body cluster with a N-body PCM, and if the sending units wires go to the PCM, the PCM might not be outputting the correct signal to the cluster for a proper gauge reading. it doesn't really make sense for GM to do this, but this is a GM product we're talking about. LOL
Desert Tuners
“When you come across a big kettle of crazy, it’s best not to stir it.”
Does a 95-99 cluster need the pcm to work the gas guage?
01 cav w/01 3400 gam gt 4t45e
that's what I'm trying to figure out. I'm not sure.
because the '00 and up J's get the mileage reading from the BCM, and not the cluster itself, I was thinking that the signal for the gauge is also on the data bus. since you had data bus problems before, maybe this is another symptom.
did the vehicle that you got that PCM from have a BCM as well?
Desert Tuners
“When you come across a big kettle of crazy, it’s best not to stir it.”
something I found online
Quote:
000 CHEVROLET MALIBU -- ODI opened ea 02-028 to review complaints of consumers reporting that their fuel gauge was incorrectly displaying the amount of fuel in the gas tank. The fuel gauge receives an electrical signal from a fuel tank sending sensor circuit card. A float arm in the tank moves electrical contacts that rub against the card as the level of fuel rises and falls. Disruption of the electrical signal (such as caused by corrosion of the circuit card) will cause incorrect readings to register on the fuel gauge. GM reported in their response to ODI dated January 13, 2003 that the primary cause of erratic fuel gauge operation is excess elemental sulfur in fuel. GM reported that abnormal levels of sulfur sporadically occurred in certain parts of Canada and the U.S. resulting in reports of fuel gauge malfunction. GM modified the sending sensor for vehicles built after October 2000.
I would think that all GM cars would pretty much be the same. sounds like a loose wire somewhere.
Desert Tuners
“When you come across a big kettle of crazy, it’s best not to stir it.”
The guage will work if I get the pcm flashed to a malibu or Impala. That I know for sure. I dont know if any others will work. It appears to be a difference in the signal to the cluster from the pcm. The sending unit wires go directly to the pcm. Im assuming its converted into to the data line then to the cluster but the J cluster cant read it. Arent the malibu and Impala N bodies? The only thing that I can narrow it down to Is the Chevy name. I was told by the dealer that some of the signals in the data lines are digital and some are analog. Im thinking that , for example the cluster is looking for a digital signal, but is recieving an analog. The guage does move a wee bit when I turn off and on the key, The check guages light stays on too.
I would reflash it to the malibu or Impala but neither use the gam GT trans that I have. Its an 01 gam GT only. I had it flashed to the 04 Impala and it didnt shift till 3X rpm and it slipped all the way there like it was starting out in 4th gear. I made a bad choice when picking the engine and tranny, but I did so because the axles of the cav 4t40e pop right in to the 4t45e.
01 cav w/01 3400 gam gt 4t45e
looking at the pinouts for the 2000 and 1999 Cav's with the LD9, the only thing I see is fuel tank pressure sensor wires. surely this wouldn't be used for fuel level sensing.
http://www.ny-jbodies.org/forum/library.asp
I'm thinking it's a direct link from the sending unit, or it goes through the BCM.
Desert Tuners
“When you come across a big kettle of crazy, it’s best not to stir it.”
joe malechowski wrote:Does a 95-99 cluster need the pcm to work the gas guage?
Uhm..... kinda. Mine works, but it moves around quite a bit. It's almost like the PCM just keeps it steady. Not like it floats from E to F or anything.
What's all this talk about the 3.4 HO? All 3400's are the same.
3.4 H.O. , From my understanding is that they were put into grand am GT's and the chevy venture, possibly the montana too. If you get a vin from any of them run a vin check it will come up as a 3.4 H.O. I think its like only a couple of horses different, maybe because of injector size or programming , I dont really know for sure.
It may just be a marketing thing from GM , Its really hard to say. Has any one else heard of this H.O. 3.4 ?
My neighbor has a 99 Gam GT it is clearly marked on the fender 3400 HO.
01 cav w/01 3400 gam gt 4t45e
I know there's a V6 HO emblem. But theres really no difference. Just like when they get swapped into the 2nd gens. The rule of thumb is that the engine outputs are due to tuning on different vehicles. When they go into a 2nd gen and use that ECU, they're all the same.
But im not putting it in a 2nd gen, Im using the programming for the gam gt also. If its in the programming, and I use the HO programming, then dont I have a H.O. still when Im done. Im sure its not a noticeable difference but for arguement sake , Is there a such thing as a H.O. 3.4 if the correct programming and PCM are used?
Even if there was no difference that still wouldnt help my situation here because of the possable transmission swap options for the cav. For the automatics , the gam and alero's are the only ones that will work with the cav axles. Unless im missing something, those two are the only ones that use the 4t45e trans. and offer a 3.4. I know some one told me to use the cav 4t40e , Im not too sure I want to go through all that swapping and find out that the programming for the grand am wont work with the cav trans. When I had the pcm flashed to the 4t65e with a 3.4, it wasnt even driveable. I also dont want my cluster to light up like a christmas tree either. If I could just get ahold of some one from gm that could tell me what the difference is in the cluster serial data of the gam and cav, and possibly have a solution for it. I would be done, and everything would work perfectly. The last time I tried to get info from gm they told me that they cant tell me anything because of some liability issue and told me to buy a grand am gt. What fun is that, it had to be some 80 year old man that answered my email.
Does any one have any connections with GM's engineering department that could possibly help me out a little here?
01 cav w/01 3400 gam gt 4t45e
All the information i've tried to get from GM, they've always told me to try the dealership. But the problem is, the dealerships here.... suck balls. They're dumb. And they're no help.
I know what you mean, the dealership that I go to is the same way. You know so many people think that dealerships know everything, and they are all mighty gods because they are where the new cars are sold. They must know everything there is to know about the products they sell, in all actuality the only difference is the cost of their work and a couple of specialty tools like the Pcm flash tool. I have borrowed some tools from them before and they dont even know how to use them. For instance the timing belt installation tool for the 3.4 DOHC in the montecarlo Z-34. They had to look for an instruction sheet that was missing from the tool. That would be a killer swap motor but I dont know if It would fit because its width.
I sent some emails out to companies that claim to make electronic components for GM. Well see if I get any where with that.
01 cav w/01 3400 gam gt 4t45e
Joe, I was looking back over the posts. I dont understand how the 3100 Malibu isnt using the same transmission as the 3400 Grand Am. It should still be the 4t45-E in both cars. That just doesnt make sense. Having a 3100 program (providing and assuming that you're using 00+) shouldnt throw things off too much. The power rating is pretty close to the same. I dont know for sure, but the injectors should be almost exactly the same size (22.5lb)
The DOHC 3.4 will fit in the engine bay.
If you remember I had a problem with the traction control light and i think the service engine light when I had the malibu programming. It did run ok, I just putted to the dealership but the trans shifted ok. You know Im going to look into that trans that came in the 02 malibu, and find out what was in it. As far as the 3100 programming, I dont feel comfortable using the programming for that on the 3.4. Too many questions about the exact programming there to be sure nothing will be hurt in the long run. The trans that is in there now is supposed to be the 3.29 ratio.
My first choice for the swap was the DOHC 3.4 but between the cost of a rebuild and finding one in good shape was nearly impossible and not cheap either. So I went with the gam 3.4.
If I had a DOHC It would be in there, that would definetly be worthy of a stick and Im pretty sure the earlier ones werent electronic shift trans, so the computer wouldnt need any work to worh with a stick. You'd need a really good clutch and tranny though.
01 cav w/01 3400 gam gt 4t45e
02 Malibu takes the 4T40E. Im assuming thats the same tranny and ratio of the cav 4t40 that I took out. Damn, the 3100 would be a direct swap, all that would be needed is the 3.1 and harness. Now that would be the absolute perfect swap there. Cheaper, Even the gas guage would work.
I dont remember If I mentoined when it was programmed for the malibu the cluster would sometimes say error where the mileage was.
Well it appears in theory that the 3.1 swap would be the way to go but until its done, we'll never know. But it does look promising.
Any way back to my problem, the malibu didnt come with the 3.4 so I dont have programming for what I need. Im still looking though. I probably wont hear from my emails that I sent out for at least a couple of days, if at all.
01 cav w/01 3400 gam gt 4t45e
Well.... You still have the 4t40E from the 2.2? Cuz that will bolt onto the 3100. And as far as the 2nd gen guys that do the 3400 swap. They'll use the stock OBD-I to run the 3400. And that's programmed for much smaller injectors. That's why mine runs so rich. You can watch the A/F guage move back a bit. But it looks like the BLM wont go down far enough in the ECM to compensate. That's because the PCM is looking for something with 40 less hp. Thats why the injectors are so much smaller. The 3100 is only a few (like 10hp) lower than the 3400. That's why I say it probably has the exact same injectors in it. If not they're only slightly smaller and the PCM should compensate just fine for the difference.
It's pretty much the exact same engine. Operation wise anyways. The 3400 has a different block casting which allows it to have the bigger bore. (you cant bore a 3100 out to a 3400). Rev limit should still be around 6200rpm. Shift points will be around 5800-6000. Top speed limit would still be 108mph. Only difference is a slight bit in the fuel tables. Which should be nothing the PCM cant compensate for.
So what exactly are you suggesting that I do. Cav 4t40, gam 3.4, gam 3.4 PCM, with 3.1 malibu programming? It might work.
Assuming that you are still running your O2 sensors. The Afr value that your getting , is it in closed loop. or open loop when you get the reading. Im assuming that you know that 14.7 is ideal, what is the actual reading that you get in closed loop on acceleration.
The problem im worried about is the fuel tables, If the programming is anything like what I deal with when I tune on my S-10 you can get to one part of the throttle where it will go way lean if you dont adjust it correctly. Its all dependant on the amount of vacuum, amount of spark advance, current RPM, TPS voltage, coolant temp, IAT sensor and injector pulse width. Another thing that may be a problem, is that unless they use the same exact cam then the timing tables will be off too.
We cant be relying on the 3.1 programming to monitor the afr , and compensate for a potential lean condition. Its not gong to see any thing wrong. If I do that switch, Ill definetly have to swipe the Afr guage out of my truck.
Let me know what readings you get for the afr.
01 cav w/01 3400 gam gt 4t45e
I have a question to add to this. I am going to be replacing the 3100 in my girls 96 Corsica and from i have read it seams that i can put a 3400 in its place. Am i correct on this?
I had a friend who had one that i could get for cheap,but didn't know the diffrence.
On the other hand i have been reading this thread a good bit. I admire the work you guyz are doing. Keep up the good work cuz i'll be watching!!!
BlackRL - Check on 60degreev6.com and Domesticcrew.com I know there are guys with Beretta's that do that exact swap. So the information has to be around on there somewheres.
The impedence of the injectors is no big deal as long as you have the ones from a 3400 before 99.
Joe - The combination that you listed is kinda the route I was going with it, yes. For my AFR... something is wrong with my ECU setup. It doesnt like something (possibly lack of EGR and stuff like that. Also I found that the CTS likes to show over 300 degrees and i dont think the ECU will even read that high) and it stays in open loop. So my car is constantly rich. You can smell it. After heavy acceleration when I start to cruise again the A/F will be buried on the rich side, but it'll go back toward stoich then stay in one spot constantly, unless I let go of the gas. I also, since I have the OBD-I have it set in field service mode. The check engine light flashes fast when in open loop, and slow when it's in closed loop. Mine always flashes fast, showing that it's staying in open loop all the time.
I thought that after a certain ammount of time had elapsed that it was supposed to go into closed loop anyways... but apparently not.
Joe, the 3.4 dohc swap has been done by DoubleZ in his 3rd gen Vert, it fits, but barely!
