some progress info on the V6 swap - Page 2 - Third Generation Forum

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Re: some progress info on the V6 swap
Saturday, April 22, 2006 9:28 AM
hotbug1776 wrote:

just discussing a v6 swap and it's advantages...or lack there of.

Nice motor BTW, The J should have come with the 3400 or the 3800sc in the GT or the Z24 options.

This car absolutely should have come with a 3x00 in it. I remember when I was buying my first 3rd Gen back in early 97. I was floored when the guy at the dealer told me that you could no longer get a V6 in the Z24. The foolish thing is that the 60 degree V6 looks completely at home in the 3rd Gen engine bay. It doesn't look stuffed in there at all!
hotbug1776 wrote:

Please detail the swap as best as you can, as I may do a 3800SC swap in the future and the notes from a 3400 swap would be benificial.

I'm actually working on a 3x00 how to for the 95, and I'll research the ODB II swap and perhaps incorporate it. Seriously, this swap is the most compatible for the 95's. I won't say easier, but you have to change less on the car. I am going to try and see if I can get the factory cluster to function properly before I put the dash back together. It will be interesting to see if it will all work. The how-to will have part numbers and wiring harness details.

I seriously doubt that it will help much with the 3800 swap, though. Both physically and electrically these engines are way too different.

Since I've been putting in so much time lately to finish my car, I've just been taking pictures and collecting my working notes, so it will be a while before my how-to is together in any useful format.

I've got a few pics in my camera that I'll upload sometime this weekend on the harness. It's coming along very nicely, and it's most of the way integrated with the vehicle.






Re: some progress info on the V6 swap
Saturday, April 22, 2006 11:31 AM
Quote:

F the L67, they weigh as much as a small block. No J-body will ever handle very well with that much weight in there.


I dont think the intention of putting that motor into a J is to make it handle great in the twisties.

Quote:

I'm actually working on a 3x00 how to for the 95, and I'll research the ODB II swap and perhaps incorporate it. Seriously, this swap is the most compatible for the 95's.


Whatever works on the 95, should work on the newer cars. I believe you can swap back to a 95 ECU and harness. So it should be the same.





Re: some progress info on the V6 swap
Saturday, April 22, 2006 8:34 PM
now when i do this swap what guages can I use like from a grand am gt or use autometer guages? and if I can swap grand am gt guages how hard would it be to switch it over?


Opening Soon Kustom J's

Re: some progress info on the V6 swap
Saturday, April 22, 2006 9:34 PM
That is a long answer question. The short answer is that you can use any aftermarket gauges, the Grand Am gauges, or the factory gauges.

How hard would it be to switch over? That depends on your wiring and fab skills. You are going to have to mod the dash to fit the gauges, not to mention a lot of wiring to connect it up.

How hard is it to use the factory gauges? Lots of wiring.

The easiest would be aftermarket gauges. I'm actually using a custom made instrument cluster for my car, but I'm going to get the factory gauges working first, just for the sake of figuring out how to make it all work.





Re: some progress info on the V6 swap
Sunday, April 23, 2006 12:10 AM
Kustom 96 Sunfire GT wrote:

now when i do this swap what guages can I use like from a grand am gt or use autometer guages? and if I can swap grand am gt guages how hard would it be to switch it over?


Quicklilcav is right. It really depends on the setup, what kind of work you want to get into, and most of all how much money you want to spend. One thing that I will tell you is that J-body gauge clusters are a different size than what you'll find in other cars. So you will run into a fitment issue there. An aftermarket cluster will be pricey, to say the least.

As I mentioned above. I plan on starting over on my wiring and running the factory ECM and engine harness. Solely for the purpose of keeping the factory electronics set up the way they were from the factory (mostly). This in turn should allow proper operation of stuff like my DRL's, speedometer, and hopefully in my case, the factory tach should also read even though I have a 6 instead of 4 cyl.





Re: some progress info on the V6 swap
Sunday, April 23, 2006 6:18 AM
SHOoff wrote:

...and hopefully in my case, the factory tach should also read even though I have a 6 instead of 4 cyl.

You should be able to use the Dakota Digital tach adapter. Your factory ECM will not read the pulse correctly. It will be 50% higher.
Dakota Digital UTSI





Re: some progress info on the V6 swap
Sunday, April 23, 2006 7:21 AM
I was going to give it a shot first. The Factory 2.2 ECM is made to see a 7x crank sensor. On the 2.2 it's programmed to 'skip' 2 of the notches. The V6 also uses a 7x sensor but doesnt skip any of them.

If it doesnt work, the shift light should come on way early. Which i'd know then it's reading too high. I blew up the cluster that I had with the tach anyways Besides.... look at my sig pic.





Re: some progress info on the V6 swap
Sunday, April 23, 2006 7:49 AM
I like the grand am gt gauges for some odd reason


Opening Soon Kustom J's

Re: some progress info on the V6 swap
Sunday, April 23, 2006 9:18 AM
SHOoff wrote:

I was going to give it a shot first. The Factory 2.2 ECM is made to see a 7x crank sensor. On the 2.2 it's programmed to 'skip' 2 of the notches. The V6 also uses a 7x sensor but doesnt skip any of them.

The 7x is the cam sensor. The crank sensor on the V6 is 24x high res and 3x low res. The tach signal is off of the ignition module, not the crank or cam sensors.




Re: some progress info on the V6 swap
Sunday, April 23, 2006 11:44 AM
something i thought of.... wont you be getting better gas mileage the the car it came stock in????? due to the difference in weight? being that there is less weight for the engine to move in your car compared the the stock car?

that'll be pretty sweet!!





Re: some progress info on the V6 swap
Sunday, April 23, 2006 12:35 PM
Quiklilcav wrote:

SHOoff wrote:

I was going to give it a shot first. The Factory 2.2 ECM is made to see a 7x crank sensor. On the 2.2 it's programmed to 'skip' 2 of the notches. The V6 also uses a 7x sensor but doesnt skip any of them.

The 7x is the cam sensor. The crank sensor on the V6 is 24x high res and 3x low res. The tach signal is off of the ignition module, not the crank or cam sensors.


Incorrect. The crank sensor inside the pulley is 24x. The Crank sensor inside actually on the crank, is 7x. I've seen 3x on wiring diagrams, and never understood why, because it is a 7x. I dont even know what the 24x is for exactly. I know on my ECU setup it isnt used. And I thought the Cam sensor is there for the SFI.







Re: some progress info on the V6 swap
Sunday, April 23, 2006 2:17 PM
Yes, the cam sensor is for the SFI.

The 3x sensor is partly responsible for correct ignition firing. It's actually wired directly to the ignition module. Every diagram I have says that the crank sensor in the block is 3x.

I have the manuals for both the Camaro 3.4 and the 3400. Both of them show 24x and 3x everywhere I have read. Also, from talking to Mr. Goodwrench when he was planing to use an F-Body wiring harness, he had found that the 24x signal is used when the engine is 1200RPMs or lower, and the 3x is for over 1200RPMs.





Re: some progress info on the V6 swap
Sunday, April 23, 2006 5:15 PM
ok which one is better to use for boost and still can save on gas? SFI or MPFI?


Opening Soon Kustom J's

Re: some progress info on the V6 swap
Sunday, April 23, 2006 11:44 PM
Quiklilcav wrote:

Yes, the cam sensor is for the SFI.

The 3x sensor is partly responsible for correct ignition firing. It's actually wired directly to the ignition module. Every diagram I have says that the crank sensor in the block is 3x.

I have the manuals for both the Camaro 3.4 and the 3400. Both of them show 24x and 3x everywhere I have read. Also, from talking to Mr. Goodwrench when he was planing to use an F-Body wiring harness, he had found that the 24x signal is used when the engine is 1200RPMs or lower, and the 3x is for over 1200RPMs.


See, I cant really understand why exactly that is. Cuz if you actually look at a 660 crankshaft, there's 7 notches in the reluctor wheel. There's probably some silly reason they say 3x. I'm sure GM is ultimately behind it all

Quote:

ok which one is better to use for boost and still can save on gas? SFI or MPFI?


SFI will get you better MPG over other kinds of port injection. But, it's only really effective under 3000rpm. After that point I've been told that it goes to MPFI anyways. At the higher engine speeds stuff is moving fast enough that it ends up spraying fuel on the back of the valve like MPFI does. But when cruisin down the highway at low engine speeds, SFI is the way to go, for the MPG.





Re: some progress info on the V6 swap
Monday, April 24, 2006 7:09 AM
lol, in all honesty, if you've swapped a 3.4L into a cavy, trust me you'll have @!#$ty mileage for the first while, kuz you'll be balls to the walls at each light... i know i would be


1998 Chevrolet Cavalier
5-spd


Re: some progress info on the V6 swap
Monday, April 24, 2006 10:03 AM
Yeah you're right about that. In my case, I've only seen it go to lean cruis mode one time. I dont know what the issuse with my setup is. Something's different about it now that's making it go to PE mode any time the throttle is pressed at all. Not 80% like it should be, we're talking more like 5%. It's really weird. So i'm gonna run a MS-II instead of what I have. That should take care of the problem.





Re: some progress info on the V6 swap
Monday, April 24, 2006 1:10 PM
the setup im going by is using the grand am BCM and PCM because im going to use the DHP powertunr on my setup


Opening Soon Kustom J's

Re: some progress info on the V6 swap
Thursday, April 27, 2006 7:38 PM
Annnnnnnnnnnnnyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy progress!? Im interested!


P0234- Only Code worth ever coming up on ur Scanner


www.sounddomain.com/id/935speedrs
Re: some progress info on the V6 swap
Thursday, April 27, 2006 10:15 PM
Yeah, it's coming along. It takes time to completely redo a wiring harness and splice it into the car, and I don't have a hell of a lot of time to work on it. I'm very close to finishing (about 10-15 more wires to go on the main harness, another 20 to the car). I'm also waiting for my egr valve (using the one from a 95 3100...those things are f-ing expensive as hell if you buy new, but I scored one cheap online.) I'm making a custom adapter for this, but just to fire it and troubleshoot, I'm going to block it off, but still plug the unit into the computer.

I'm sorry to say that I've been slacking on my picture taking, because I'm just trying to get it done (I wanna fire it up soooooooo bad). I'll try to take a few minutes and put up some more pictures tomorrow.





Re: some progress info on the V6 swap
Friday, April 28, 2006 8:41 AM
any updated pics?


Opening Soon Kustom J's

Re: some progress info on the V6 swap
Friday, April 28, 2006 11:55 AM
now can i use the stock 2000 sunfire cluster and then rewire it to the grand am BCM and PCM


Opening Soon Kustom J's


Re: some progress info on the V6 swap
Friday, April 28, 2006 3:45 PM
Kustom 96 Sunfire GT wrote:

any updated pics?

Man, a little impatient, are we? 10 hours was too long?

Anyway, here are a couple of pics from this afternoon. The only thing left from the engine harness are the O2 and knock sensors (one per side), and the coolant sensor (had to be swapped out, and have to add a secondary for my cluster). Other than that, it's just about done. As you can see, it is partially integrated into the car harness. I still need to run a bunch of the instrument panel items, but the rest is done. I made one minor mistake that cost be a bunch of time backing wires out of the harness, but nothing major: I ran the entire injector harness back to the ECM before I realized that I had spaced out and run two wires that didn't go: the common wire for each of the injectors gets wired to the ignition feed in the vehicle. Ooops! That's what happens when you've been staring at schematics for hours, and soldering 100+ splices. Burnout.

Just so you can appreciate the work that's gone into this so far, every wire in the loom of the second picture has been run by me. I ended up pretty much pulling the entire harness apart and building a new one from the pieces. The fat bundle that is running over the radiator support will be run under the radiator like the factory harness once the engine is running, but I'm keeping it up over the top until then, so that when I fire it up, any trouble shooting can be done without having to get under the car. Other things to note is that I ended up hardwiring the injector harness into the main harness because I didn't want to bother hunting down a donor harness to take the 14 pin connector from. I think later on (next winter perhaps), I will end up sending the harness to Painless Wiring to have them build me a fresh harness out of new components, and add in the multipin separators, but we'll see what happens.

For now, enjoy the progress pix:









Re: some progress info on the V6 swap
Friday, April 28, 2006 6:12 PM
SHUUUAAAWEEEEEEEEEEEEETTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT I was pondering the concepts of going full OBDII but, No FWD GMs are Stick and the computer gets mega pissed off. As I found out when I did a 3400/5 speed swap on my cousins beretta. Due to all the wiring you had to do, why not just use a 2nd gen Z24 setup then? You had to adapt to your cluster anyway. Just a thought....... Goooood work!


P0234- Only Code worth ever coming up on ur Scanner


www.sounddomain.com/id/935speedrs
Re: some progress info on the V6 swap
Friday, April 28, 2006 10:20 PM
Quote:

Due to all the wiring you had to do, why not just use a 2nd gen Z24 setup


There's some different problems you run into on that. I have not perfected them either.

You must have 93-94 ECU or the $A1 code for such. Or modify the stock code that's in there. Otherwise your Speed Limiter kicks on at 20mph (still 1st gear on the 5spd). You can unhook the VSS, but then after you've been cruising at 60mph and the ECU doesnt know that you're moving, it sets the Idle there. To prevent this you'll need to unhook the IAC. If you unhook the IAC the car will be rather difficult to keep running when cold.

The 2nd Gen ECM will not run the factory Gauge cluster. Which is one thing that I think is possible with Quicklilcav's setup.

The 2nd Gen ECM requires the use of the knock sensor for the 3.1. The 3.1 knock sensor is not correct for the 3x00 motor. This creates issues on mine with KR at high RPM. With the 3x00 KS in there, the ECU isnt compatible. So you'll have a problem with MASSIVE KR at all times. You'll even hear the exhaust sound funny at idle.

Fueling - The 3x00 makes more power than the 3.1. The 3.1 therefore has smaller injectors. Thus, you create 2 problems. You're supposed to use the 3.1 injectors in the 3x00, but then you max them out and run a bit lean on the high end. At the same time, if you run the 3x00 injectors, the ECU doesnt know that they're too big. It attempts to compensate, but it maxes itself out as there's only so far it can adjust. And still runs too rich. So you need to once again, burn a chip with code that is correct for the injectors.

However, I have sent an email to Intense racing (who does a lot for GTP's, and also has PCM's for the LA1) and asked if it's possible for them to do custom programming to remove the auto tranny controls. Hopefully they can, cuz IIRC a custom PCM from intense is only 179 bucks.





Re: some progress info on the V6 swap
Saturday, April 29, 2006 8:24 AM
hey jason when you talked to Intense racing they told me they can do it but they use HP tuners software to tune it


Opening Soon Kustom J's

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