some progress info on the V6 swap - Page 3 - Third Generation Forum

Forum Post / Reply
You must log in before you can post or reply to messages.
Re: some progress info on the V6 swap
Saturday, April 29, 2006 2:07 PM
Cool. I'm waiting on details from them. I dont know if the ECU would try to fight the factory electronics or not. I'll probably take the car to them to have this done anyways. And hopefully they can do a CASE learn on it. If not, i'll have to hunt up a stealership. The crank sensor has been changed from what that factory ECU was used to seeing anyways, so it's gonna need it. In addition, it'll be nice to get some dyno time. (i'll have to borrow a video camera from a buddy, since I dont have one )






Re: some progress info on the V6 swap
Saturday, April 29, 2006 6:00 PM
Matt Calkins wrote:Due to all the wiring you had to do, why not just use a 2nd gen Z24 setup then? You had to adapt to your cluster anyway. Just a thought....... Goooood work!

a few reasons:
A) 2nd Gens are not SFI

B) The 95 F-body uses the same protocols as the 95 J-body, so the cluster will work properly (even the VSS uses the same 4000ppm output, so no recalibration needed there!)

C) As said above, older 3.1's have lower output injectors, and the computer is not compatible with the newer injectors. The obvious option is aftermarket high flow injectors for the 2nd Gen, but since the above issues were resolved by using the F-body computer, why spend that money?

BTW, I didn't have to adapt the cluster, but I had a custom one made for the sake of having a sweet custom cluster, and the inputs on that are universal (has to be programmed, but it's pretty simple)






Re: some progress info on the V6 swap
Saturday, April 29, 2006 6:08 PM
Thanks allot of taking the time to answer my questions! I just purchased a 95 Z24, and am getting ready to get the 2.3L out and get on it. But, as far as the SFI i don't care about that. SFI as known barely comes into play untill at curising speeds, and its also know that a 3400 5 speed will rarely ever see enough time where it is babied for sfi to kick in . Injector resistance differences due suck, but domestic crews guys are running 3x00s injectors, in MPFI 3.1Ls without issue. I do like the rest of the compatiablity though. But then again if somebody can get rid of all the TCC and EGR issues (and then some) for a decent price full OBDII would be an excellent option. Obviously the wiring has been the biggest hassle thus far, but what part in particular? I would assue the shorting and lenthening of the wires to fit the location of sensors would be an issue. And the differences in OBDII VS OBDI tps, IAT and all that were a mild inconviences.


P0234- Only Code worth ever coming up on ur Scanner


www.sounddomain.com/id/935speedrs
Re: some progress info on the V6 swap
Saturday, April 29, 2006 6:47 PM
I am dropping a turbocharged 3400 SFI with a 5sp into my sunfire but im taking sean and jason advice on this stuff and like some other good jbody members on this site that is doing the swap over


Opening Soon Kustom J's

Re: some progress info on the V6 swap
Saturday, April 29, 2006 7:29 PM
Matt Calkins wrote:Thanks allot of taking the time to answer my questions! I just purchased a 95 Z24, and am getting ready to get the 2.3L out and get on it. But, as far as the SFI i don't care about that. SFI as known barely comes into play untill at curising speeds, and its also know that a 3400 5 speed will rarely ever see enough time where it is babied for sfi to kick in . Injector resistance differences due suck, but domestic crews guys are running 3x00s injectors, in MPFI 3.1Ls without issue. I do like the rest of the compatiablity though. But then again if somebody can get rid of all the TCC and EGR issues (and then some) for a decent price full OBDII would be an excellent option. Obviously the wiring has been the biggest hassle thus far, but what part in particular? I would assue the shorting and lenthening of the wires to fit the location of sensors would be an issue. And the differences in OBDII VS OBDI tps, IAT and all that were a mild inconviences.

Actually, on the same motor, SFI has better throttle response with every day driving than MPFI. I've converted an engine before, and you could tell the difference.

BTW, are you doing an auto or 5-speed, and are you aware of what you'll need to change over with regard to the tranny?

Also, a little teaser: This is the cluster that's in my car:








Re: some progress info on the V6 swap
Sunday, April 30, 2006 12:36 AM
Shawn - Actually the ECU is compatible with the injectors of the 3400 providing that it's older than 00. The only problem is them being too big. In 00 they switched to the Multitec 2 injectors. This requires some more programming to be done to work properly (burn on V6z24.com sells a chip made for this) Since the Multitec 2's have a different plug, it requires a custom injector harness be made.

Also, what's the ground clearance look like under your car? My oil pan now sits almost exactly 6 inches from the ground. The 2.2 has somewhere around 7-8 inches of clearance. (stock ride height) Guess i'd better watch out when lowering.





Re: some progress info on the V6 swap
Sunday, April 30, 2006 6:31 AM
SHOoff wrote:Shawn - Actually the ECU is compatible with the injectors of the 3400 providing that it's older than 00. The only problem is them being too big. In 00 they switched to the Multitec 2 injectors. This requires some more programming to be done to work properly (burn on V6z24.com sells a chip made for this) Since the Multitec 2's have a different plug, it requires a custom injector harness be made.

Also, what's the ground clearance look like under your car? My oil pan now sits almost exactly 6 inches from the ground. The 2.2 has somewhere around 7-8 inches of clearance. (stock ride height) Guess i'd better watch out when lowering.

You know, I was afraid I was going to have that problem with the injectors. I have an 02 motor. I was reading recently that 03 is when they switched, but while working on the wiring and removing the upper intake, I thought the injectors looked different. I figured I'd check into it after I'm done with the harness. Looks like I'm going to have to get a different set. Not an expense I was really looking foreward to. As far as the plugs, I'll just add those to the list of changes I'm making in the harness.

I'll have to check the ground clearance, but it doesn't look like an issue for me. I'm dropped about 2", so if I've got OK clearance, it's good.






Re: some progress info on the V6 swap
Sunday, April 30, 2006 8:34 AM
hey guys if you guys want to use OBOII go use the DHP powertunr because I was able to get picture of the powertunr and what it can do you can disable the security on it with the powertunr and alot more things from it but im tryin to get more pictures from a buddy of mine who haves the powertunr and also im going to attach a picture showing you guys u can disable the security on it.


Opening Soon Kustom J's

Re: some progress info on the V6 swap
Sunday, April 30, 2006 4:15 PM
I'm aware of everything I will need to swap over for the stick swap. I'm using the getrag tranny though, which the only down fall is the 95+ shift mech doesn't feel like its from a mack truck. But i'm use to the lumpier shifting characteristics that the 2nd gens posess.I've heard allot about the DHP setup but i'm weary of going with that just because if i did it would be using a Grand Am GT harness or something like that. I'd have to rewire allot of things. Sounds so far that the Firechicken way, is the best way. I'd probley use a 96 Beretta Harness if i had a DHP setup because even though it uses the older distubtion block on the d.side setup, i'd be able to run the 3400 w/o issue minus the TCC and all that sweet stuff.


P0234- Only Code worth ever coming up on ur Scanner


www.sounddomain.com/id/935speedrs
Re: some progress info on the V6 swap
Sunday, April 30, 2006 7:47 PM
hey matt you would still have to use the grand am wire harness anyways


Opening Soon Kustom J's

Re: some progress info on the V6 swap
Monday, May 01, 2006 9:30 AM
Matt Calkins wrote:I'm aware of everything I will need to swap over for the stick swap. I'm using the getrag tranny though, which the only down fall is the 95+ shift mech doesn't feel like its from a mack truck. But i'm use to the lumpier shifting characteristics that the 2nd gens posess.I've heard allot about the DHP setup but i'm weary of going with that just because if i did it would be using a Grand Am GT harness or something like that. I'd have to rewire allot of things. Sounds so far that the Firechicken way, is the best way. I'd probley use a 96 Beretta Harness if i had a DHP setup because even though it uses the older distubtion block on the d.side setup, i'd be able to run the 3400 w/o issue minus the TCC and all that sweet stuff.


Matt - What I was planning on doing is sitting through hours of starting at wiring diagrams, and going through my wiring. I was going to try to keep as much of the J-body wire harness as possible. Then simply take the Grand Am ECU and clip the wiring maybe 6" back from the connectors. Then splice in from there. Obviously some parts of the wiring will need to come from the grand am, so you'll need to have the N-body harness as well. Example, the GA harness will be setup for 6 injectors, the J-body for 4. The N-body will have the 24x sensor on the crank, the J-body's wont. If I end up going that route when I change the wiring, I'll be sure to write down what wire goes to where so everyone will know,.

On that note about the PCM. Intense emailed me back today. They didnt really have an answer about the PCM situation. But he did say to contact Mike over at Milzy Motorsports, and also copied the email that I sent to him. I also sent an email to Mike, and i'll have to wait for a response from him. I'd asked if he can do quite a few things in the programming of the ECU. One of which was to set the program for 1 cooling fan. Otherwise, i'll have to get a 2nd fan, since the N-body has 2 of them.

So once again, we'll see.





Re: some progress info on the V6 swap
Monday, May 01, 2006 8:35 PM
Kustom 96 Sunfire GT;

"Hey matt you would still have to use the grand am wire harness anyways"

I'm aware of that i'm just saying between the 2 choices i have!

I've done some research on my part, and it looks that a chevy malibu harness would be the closest plug and play option. Obviously the auto end of the ECU is going to be less than impressed but one step at a time. I see what your saying, as far as utilizing the parts that apply for you. This obviously is a option. I have no problem with wiring schematics, or wiring in general. However the fact one screw up on my part (which I will) will result and something geeking out in an unexplainable matter. I'll have my Z24 here on saturday night, hope to begin all the fun stuff then. I want to get the entire engine wiring harness out and go to town. The reason i said a malibu is because the clip setup is very similar. Soon to see, keep me posted on the ground you make with it all!!!! GL MAN! Haha Cooling fans our the least of our worries!


P0234- Only Code worth ever coming up on ur Scanner


www.sounddomain.com/id/935speedrs
Re: some progress info on the V6 swap
Tuesday, May 02, 2006 3:13 AM
Quote:

I have no problem with wiring schematics, or wiring in general.


Trust me, you will when you start doing the wiring in your car. There's a LOT more wires in there once you split open that loom. LOL.

I'm still waiting to hear from Milzy on the PCM flash.





Re: some progress info on the V6 swap
Tuesday, May 02, 2006 7:14 AM
haha yea, i have a 1969 datsun with a 4.6L DOHC in out of a crown vic, and that was a wiring nightmare. Mainly because there isn't a engine only wiring harness. You can grab cruise, power window w/e you want from the engine bay. Ford sucks. Hopefully some good news will come from Milzy motorsports, i'm off to work, i expect like EXCELLENT news when i get home tonight . I'm getting ansty and I really do have 80% of everything i need for boost on a 3400, i may just wait and grab a haltech E6gmx to run the car and say piss on it because I will need it down the road to run boost. I can get one for $700 shipped.


P0234- Only Code worth ever coming up on ur Scanner


www.sounddomain.com/id/935speedrs
Re: some progress info on the V6 swap
Tuesday, May 02, 2006 7:20 AM
hey matt
this setup is little bit more wiring what you think it is because there is more electronics in this swap setup trust sean and jason about the wire setup


Opening Soon Kustom J's

Re: some progress info on the V6 swap
Tuesday, May 02, 2006 2:04 PM
Sounds like he's already wired a fuel injected engine. So i'd say he has a good start.





Re: some progress info on the V6 swap
Tuesday, May 02, 2006 2:23 PM
Yea it was a start but, i imagine its different. On the upside I really really am banking more on this malibu wiring that i've been looking over. I did a 3100 swap on a 99 malibu that was 2.4L equipped and the wiring is really looking very much so similar! See how it goes. and obviously since the wiring for the 2.4L is laid similar to the 3100, its a bridge between the two. If not I really would make the jump for the E6GMX, just a bad time with already having to purchase the car, the 3400 and clutch + pressure plate. I SURELY want to wire it with the engine out just mainly so it will be a more so factory install. Also the 69 datsun pickup is pretty nuts even though that year 4.6L is only a 190HP 225ft/lbs of torque engine. PS never did mention.. the gauges look killer, they dakota digitals? I've been researching on a decent set of gauges, and........ dammn kinda pricey.


P0234- Only Code worth ever coming up on ur Scanner


www.sounddomain.com/id/935speedrs
Re: some progress info on the V6 swap
Tuesday, May 02, 2006 5:00 PM
Matt Calkins wrote:...PS never did mention.. the gauges look killer, they dakota digitals? I've been researching on a decent set of gauges, and........ dammn kinda pricey.

Yes, they are DD's...Absolutely stunning. The picture does them no justice. They look completely factory, too. It's the VFD3-ORIG6 setup. Just under a fat G with shipping.

I got the EGR valve and upper intake from an old 3100 today. I'm going to be making an adapter that will put it right on the newer 3100 manifold. It should look like it came that way when it's done. The older 3100 EGR is the same one as the F-body, so it'll plug right in and work.

By the way, you mentioned that you are hoping to build the wiring harness with the engine out of the vehicle to make it as factory as possible...I think the way I'm doing it (although kind of back-breaking leaning over the car for hours) will come out as factory as you can get. By building it on the car, you can run the wires exactly where they need to be, and run them along side any vehicle wires that are staying in (like ABS, lighting, etc.). Just a thought. Believe me, I'd much rather be building this on a bench, or on an engine stand! Another way to do it is to run rope all where you are going to run the wires and label each part, then lay the rope out on a bench and run the wires along it.






Re: some progress info on the V6 swap
Tuesday, May 02, 2006 7:52 PM
yes the Double Ds are nice However i have to disagree on the rope idea. I don't think thats a very good idea when you've been bent over wiring all night... you may just hook it to the rafters or a cherry picker .


P0234- Only Code worth ever coming up on ur Scanner


www.sounddomain.com/id/935speedrs
Re: some progress info on the V6 swap
Wednesday, May 03, 2006 3:09 AM
Well, since the ECU sits in the pass. fenderwell, I like to label the wires, run the wires around to where they need to be. Then sit there on my little stool next to the car with the soldering iron, and go to town.





Re: some progress info on the V6 swap
Wednesday, May 03, 2006 5:35 AM
Matt Calkins wrote:...However i have to disagree on the rope idea. I don't think thats a very good idea when you've been bent over wiring all night... you may just hook it to the rafters or a cherry picker .

LOL...I think you're missing the point. This is a classic way of making a wiring harness for a hot rod. You run rope where the main part of the harness is going to go, then you attach small pieces of rope to it where branch-off points of the harness will be, and label them. Once you have done all of this, you take the rope out of the car and lay it out on a table. You then procede to run the wires along the rope to make the harness. You don't leave the rope in the car.






Re: some progress info on the V6 swap
Wednesday, May 03, 2006 11:37 AM
Here's what I got from Milzy Motorsports today.

From: Mike Miller [mailto:mikem@milzymotorsports.com]
Sent: Wednesday, May 03, 2006 9:37 AM
To: 'Jason'
Subject: RE: LA1 PCM

Jason,

I’ll have to do some research on the subject, but I think we can write a pcm that’s going to work for you. Let me do some research, and I’ll let you know.

Mike Miller
Milzy Motorsports


So we shall wait to see what he says further on the subject.





Re: some progress info on the V6 swap
Wednesday, May 03, 2006 6:47 PM
hey jason when i talked to mike on the phone he told me he can make a bad ass turbo computer for me but he wanted to get the car started first before he started to tune it


Opening Soon Kustom J's

Re: some progress info on the V6 swap
Wednesday, May 03, 2006 9:45 PM
I've been looking on this thread, but I have a question.

Why not have used the GA GT's 3x00 engine harness/ECM and get it reflashed so it will accept the 5 speed? That makes the most sense to me since it's for that motor.

Or is the 95 F-body harness more compatible?

Which manual are you using? The older 2nd gen trans or the 2.2 form the 3rd gens?( not sure if it was mentioned or not) I'd think the auto VSS and the newer 5 speeds would have the same vss wouldnt they?
Re: some progress info on the V6 swap
Thursday, May 04, 2006 2:47 AM
Kustom 96 Sunfire GT wrote:hey jason when i talked to mike on the phone he told me he can make a bad ass turbo computer for me but he wanted to get the car started first before he started to tune it


Tim - That's what i'm trying to do. That'll give it some sort of baseline thing to do. Plus, hopefully then MIke will hold on to that program and keep it around for when someone wants to do the swap in the future. That'll give them something to start with. Boost will definately come later.

Steven Peterson wrote:Why not have used the GA GT's 3x00 engine harness/ECM and get it reflashed so it will accept the 5 speed? That makes the most sense to me since it's for that motor.

Or is the 95 F-body harness more compatible?


Steven - There's several different ways you can go and have a comptuer that's compatible. There's up's and downs of each way. What I'm trying to do is find somewhere that remove auto tranny controls from the 3x00 ECU. I dont have anything to edit/flash OBD-II PCM's so I dont know for sure, but it could be as simple as having an option for ON/OFF for the auto trans. Then I want to splice the ECU in and use as much of the J-body wire harness as possible, for simplicity reasons. A couple things will have to be added, such as injectors, but it's what has to be done.

The F-body computer will require 2 knock sensors and such, since that's how it's set up.
The 2nd Gen J-body computer requires some older parts to be compatible, such as the digital EGR and knock sensor.

Myself I'm using the 2.2 tranny. Reason is, it was already in the car. It bolts right up, and the car was designed with that tranny. It makes installation much easier, and less costly of course (since i already had the tranny). YES it will hold the power of the 3400. Though, i know much more power and i'll be really close to the Max input TQ for the trans. IIRC it's 225 ft/lbs. The older 2nd gen trans can be used (either the 282, or the NVG T550) but it adds more work.

The VSS I would guess is probably the same. Or at least reads the same PPM on auto vs. 5spd. I'm going to have to aquire this number though, just to make sure it's the same as what the GA uses. If not, then the program can be changed to use the correct number. Just like doing a speedometer adjustment for using non-stock sized tires or something of the sort.





Forum Post / Reply
You must log in before you can post or reply to messages.

 

Start New Topic Advanced Search