some progress info on the V6 swap - Page 45 - Third Generation Forum

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Re: some progress info on the V6 swap
Saturday, January 05, 2008 5:24 PM
That's weird, then, unless you f'd with those wires. The only wire I touched was the one that goes to the ECM from the relay. The wires going to the fan and the fuse box were never touched. That's why I'm thinking it might be a CTS issue. Since I'm using the sending unit that went with my gauges for them, I really have no idea if the ECM is getting a reading from the factory CTS. I'll probably never know now, though, since when I put the engine back in, I'm going to put a 96 GA computer and harness, so I get to cut and splice again.

Off subject, while I have everything out for paint, I may try to find myself an Impulse tranny and swap out the FDR (4.11) and put in an LSD.
If I can't find the 4.11, I'll most likely go for the 3.94 from a Z.







Re: some progress info on the V6 swap
Saturday, January 05, 2008 7:07 PM
I'm gonna need the ECM pin diagram and chassis wiring diagram for Sunfire 97 2.2. Maybe Kardain could help me out here as the only differences in his and mine are color. I also need the ECM pin diagram and chassis diagram for a 94 Z24 3.1 5 speed, so I'll have to register an account on V6Z24.com later and see what I can find there...
Re: some progress info on the V6 swap
Saturday, January 05, 2008 7:17 PM
I used to have an account on v6z24.com, now can't remember username password or anything. If someone here has an account on there, could they please see if they can find the chassis wiring diagrams and a ecm pin diagram please, 94 Z24 3.1 5 speed.
Re: some progress info on the V6 swap
Saturday, January 05, 2008 7:54 PM
Michael Antle wrote:I'm gonna need the ECM pin diagram and chassis wiring diagram for Sunfire 97 2.2. Maybe Kardain could help me out here as the only differences in his and mine are color. I also need the ECM pin diagram and chassis diagram for a 94 Z24 3.1 5 speed, so I'll have to register an account on V6Z24.com later and see what I can find there...


OBD-1: http://www.projectwyldfyre.com/tech/ln295_97/pcmwiring.html

OBD-2: http://www.projectwyldfyre.com/tech/ln295_97/pcmwiringobd2.pdf

Quote:

I used to have an account on v6z24.com, now can't remember username password or anything. If someone here has an account on there, could they please see if they can find the chassis wiring diagrams and a ecm pin diagram please, 94 Z24 3.1 5 speed.


I don't know what PCM # that is, but here's a bunch:

http://www.cruzers.com/~ludis/







Edited 3 time(s). Last edited Saturday, January 05, 2008 8:04 PM








Re: some progress info on the V6 swap
Saturday, January 05, 2008 10:24 PM
Not sure if my friend can find what he's looking for in that stuff but I sent it to him anyway. I found a local auto wiring guy who says he's POSITIVE that he can get the factory cluster working with a 1994 Z24 harness. Heres part of our conversation:

MITCH:
What model is your car?
and can you find anything out about what the BCM controls?
you tach isnt going to work regardless, as it expects 2 pulses per rotation, (4cyl) and you'll be feeding it 3 pulses/rotation (6 cyl) there are tach translators out, so thats another option.

all your temp sensors are all factory GM, so as long as you keep the correct sensors, you're good to go (all gm sensors are the same, on all engines, so no issue)
your speedo is probably ran by your stock transmission, and is most likely fully electronic, as you'll be using the V6 tranny, your stock speedo sensor should attach somehow, or the other sensor will give the correct # of pulses I believe..


ME:
97 Sunfire se, 2.2 5 speed. All the other gauges will work fine piggybacked, other than the tach, but I think I can get a Tach adapter which will change the signal. The speedo is ran by the transmission, and is electronic, but it isn't going to a problem because I'm using a stock sunfire 5 speed tranny. None of the 3400's came with manual trannys and I hate autos.
Also, as far as I know my car doesn't have a BCM, all the gauges are controlled by the ECM other than the fuel gauge.


MITCH:
Honestly, I'm positive you can run with everything like you have now..
the BCM seems to only be in the 99+ models.
Re: some progress info on the V6 swap
Saturday, January 05, 2008 10:43 PM
close, the VSS sends a signal to the PCM which is translated and outputted to the IC.









Re: some progress info on the V6 swap
Sunday, January 06, 2008 6:45 AM
Quicklilcav - I think the Impulse has a 3.83:1 FDR. If you want the 4:11 I'm pretty sure that came from the Geo Storm GSi. At either rate, it may prove somewhat difficult to find.


Michael Antle wrote:Not sure if my friend can find what he's looking for in that stuff but I sent it to him anyway. I found a local auto wiring guy who says he's POSITIVE that he can get the factory cluster working with a 1994 Z24 harness. Heres part of our conversation:

MITCH:
What model is your car?
and can you find anything out about what the BCM controls?
you tach isnt going to work regardless, as it expects 2 pulses per rotation, (4cyl) and you'll be feeding it 3 pulses/rotation (6 cyl) there are tach translators out, so thats another option.

all your temp sensors are all factory GM, so as long as you keep the correct sensors, you're good to go (all gm sensors are the same, on all engines, so no issue)
your speedo is probably ran by your stock transmission, and is most likely fully electronic, as you'll be using the V6 tranny, your stock speedo sensor should attach somehow, or the other sensor will give the correct # of pulses I believe..


ME:
97 Sunfire se, 2.2 5 speed. All the other gauges will work fine piggybacked, other than the tach, but I think I can get a Tach adapter which will change the signal. The speedo is ran by the transmission, and is electronic, but it isn't going to a problem because I'm using a stock sunfire 5 speed tranny. None of the 3400's came with manual trannys and I hate autos.
Also, as far as I know my car doesn't have a BCM, all the gauges are controlled by the ECM other than the fuel gauge.


MITCH:
Honestly, I'm positive you can run with everything like you have now..
the BCM seems to only be in the 99+ models.


The 95-99 cars do not have a BCM. They have what's called a courtesy center. But, i'm pretty sure that's only in charge of things like your interior lighting and your chimes and such. I've noticed that even without my factory PCM the interior light will go out when the ignition is switched on and the door is closed. If the ignition is off and you close the door it still has that 15 second delay or whatever, and then dims the light til it's out. Just like factory.

I still don't think that the 94 ECM will control your factory tach as the tach does not have a special output from the ECM to the cluster like the speedometer does. It's operation is part of the datastream. The ECM pumps all this info to the cluster, which is decoded and sent to the cluster. Things I know to be controlled are the coolant temp needle, tachometer, and shift light (or low trac light on the auto). I also am assuming that it controls the indicator for the automatic transmission, which I know when you hook to a manual transmission ECM, doesn't light up at all.

I'm working on getting ahold of a couple of clusters. I'm getting 2 because I might end up frying one when I attempt to modify it. But if not, I can make a second one and sell it to someone with a V6 swap. Basically, the cluster is decoding the info, but there's still some sort of motor that's going to control where the needle is pointing to. Sure it's going to read 50 percent higher, but that's fine. It should be fairly easy to use the trick of electrical resistance to change the voltage the motor sees, thus affecting how far the needle moves. In fact, it's done with older 2nd gen (I think PH1, not sure on PH2) Cav's. The hard part is going to be figuring out what's what on a PCB without having any sort of diagram. AFAIK GM doesn't publish a diagram for the gauge cluster and it's considered to be a non-rebuildable part since if it stops working, you just replace it.

The fuel gauge works without the factory PCM. HOWEVER, acceleration/deceleration will cause the needle to move around quite a bit. What i've not understood is exactly why it does that but when a PCM is hooked up the needle is more steady.

The speedometer runs from the tranny to the PCM then to the speedomter. You cannot direct wire it, or at 35mph you'll be reading 200mph. The PCM must change the PPM. The 94 ECM should be able to operate the speedometer fine though.

I'm also wondering if I should dare take a video of the tach running incorrectly. I know the pic in my sig has gotten me way to many "how did you get your engine to rev that high" emails. But before and after vids I believe are in order.





Re: some progress info on the V6 swap
Sunday, January 06, 2008 8:08 AM
Not sure what you meant about the shift light, I know mine doesn't have a shift light...

Not sure what my buddy is planning on doing. Or how he's going to do it, but he says he sure it'll work, and work properly. If not, I'm just going to run a set of aftermarkerts like Kardains, only analog style.
Re: some progress info on the V6 swap
Sunday, January 06, 2008 8:30 AM
I know a guy locally with a chip burner for DSM's, Can anyone tell me if this is then same as the chip burner for GM's? Also SHooff, when you had your car running with the 2nd gen harness, did you have it chipped for the 3400 injectors or did you run the 3.1 injectors?
Re: some progress info on the V6 swap
Sunday, January 06, 2008 10:44 AM
So I went ahead and just got all new gauges and made a custom cluster, Ill take some pictures of it when I can find my memory card.
But I cannot for the life of me find the wire to run to the fuel level gauge. The wire I thought it was puts no resistance on the gauge and it reads infinite and therefore way past full all the time.

Does anyone know what wire needs to goto the signal terminal of my fuel level gauge?
Thanks and pictures soon
Re: some progress info on the V6 swap
Sunday, January 06, 2008 11:35 AM
Quote:

Not sure what you meant about the shift light, I know mine doesn't have a shift light...


it should... on the left side of the cluster.

Quote:

Does anyone know what wire needs to goto the signal terminal of my fuel level gauge?


For the Chevy - Pin B5 on the IC plug, its a purple wire.

For the Pontiac - Pin B7 on the IC plug, also purple.










Re: some progress info on the V6 swap
Sunday, January 06, 2008 11:49 AM
Well I used that purple wire and got no resistance.
What could the problem be?
Re: some progress info on the V6 swap
Sunday, January 06, 2008 1:20 PM
nope no shift light. I've hit the rev lmiter ceveral times and no shift light has come on. But it should come on before I hit the rev limiter, lol!
Re: some progress info on the V6 swap
Sunday, January 06, 2008 3:51 PM
SHOoff wrote:...I still don't think that the 94 ECM will control your factory tach as the tach does not have a special output from the ECM to the cluster like the speedometer does. It's operation is part of the datastream. The ECM pumps all this info to the cluster, which is decoded and sent to the cluster. Things I know to be controlled are the coolant temp needle, tachometer, and shift light (or low trac light on the auto). I also am assuming that it controls the indicator for the automatic transmission, which I know when you hook to a manual transmission ECM, doesn't light up at all.

I'm working on getting ahold of a couple of clusters. I'm getting 2 because I might end up frying one when I attempt to modify it. But if not, I can make a second one and sell it to someone with a V6 swap. Basically, the cluster is decoding the info, but there's still some sort of motor that's going to control where the needle is pointing to. Sure it's going to read 50 percent higher, but that's fine. It should be fairly easy to use the trick of electrical resistance to change the voltage the motor sees, thus affecting how far the needle moves. In fact, it's done with older 2nd gen (I think PH1, not sure on PH2) Cav's. The hard part is going to be figuring out what's what on a PCB without having any sort of diagram. AFAIK GM doesn't publish a diagram for the gauge cluster and it's considered to be a non-rebuildable part since if it stops working, you just replace it...

I can help you with this answer. It's not going to be as simple as you think. The motors on our clusters are 4 pin motors, with two separate windings. They are controlled with a microprocessor that sends voltage through the windings corresponding to sine and cosine functions. Very odd way to do it, but I'm sure there is a good reason. It might offer more control. Also, the tach data is embedded in the serial data stream. I have the definitions of the different ECM data streams, and GM seems to like switching it up constantly. I have about 200 files, and I've compared tons of them, and the tach signals are all different. You're not going to be able tot change the tach reading with a resistance change. The best thing if you want to screw around with it would be to see if you can use parts from a GA cluster in ours (maybe the tach microprocessor is different?)

As far as the 94 ECM controlling the tach, I have given that some thought. I believe the data stream from those probably has the best chance of matching. I'll have to go through my files and see if I have that definition. FYI, things that go through the data stream to the cluster: tach, temp, PRND321, and all warning lights (except CEL for some reason). Things that don't: high beam, turn signals, fuel level, and speedo.






Re: some progress info on the V6 swap
Monday, January 07, 2008 4:49 AM
Quote:

You're not going to be able tot change the tach reading with a resistance change. The best thing if you want to screw around with it would be to see if you can use parts from a GA cluster in ours (maybe the tach microprocessor is different?)


Ok, but what makes the needle itself move? It has to have some sort of stepper motor to move that needle. My guess is that there is some sort of PWM that makes the needle move as it's more electrically efficient to use PWM than to vary the voltage. That's the basic thought behind my idea. I just want to lower the voltage going to that stepper so that the needle doesn't move as far. You might be right and I won't be able to get it to work. But i'm determined to get that tach working.

The CEL is activated through a seperate line like the speedometer is. I'm guessing it's in case of an ECU going dead where it would possibly stop outputting the data stream but it will fault out to powering that line and turning the light on.

Quote:

I know a guy locally with a chip burner for DSM's, Can anyone tell me if this is then same as the chip burner for GM's? Also SHooff, when you had your car running with the 2nd gen harness, did you have it chipped for the 3400 injectors or did you run the 3.1 injectors?


No, DSM programs wont work with GM ECU's. If it's a generic chip burner that can burn programs onto a 27C256 then yes it'll work. But you'll need something specific with GM programs use to put a GM program on that chip.

I did not modify the ECM to use 3400 injectors. And it ran overly rich, which comes along with horrible MPG. My narrowband O2 sensor even stayed deep into the rich side constantly.

As far as your shift light, it should be on the lower left corner of the cluster. If you have 3spd auto it'll be there but not used. If you have 4spd auto, the cluster will say LOW TRAC in the lower left. The computer uses the same output for that. If you use a 4spd auto cluster on a 5spd car every time the light activates it will show LOW TRAC unless you change the overlay. If a 5spd car comes with tach, the light might be disabled stock but i've seen some that are functional. It's weird. It's also possible that the light is burned out, or covered.





Re: some progress info on the V6 swap
Monday, January 07, 2008 6:05 AM
Mines a 5 speed, with tach, and I've never seen a shift light. Could be burned out I guess. So if I wanted to add a shift light could I just run a wire from the ECM pinout to the lead and ground it someplace?
Re: some progress info on the V6 swap
Monday, January 07, 2008 6:43 AM
You'll have to get a tach adapter to make the shift light work, but that should be low on the priority list









Re: some progress info on the V6 swap
Monday, January 07, 2008 6:56 AM
It is. I already have an aftermarket shift light I had outta my other car but never installed it. I figured if my car was supposed to come from the factory with one, and has the pinout for it on the ecm, I thought it would just be a matter of running the wire.
Re: some progress info on the V6 swap
Monday, January 07, 2008 7:06 AM
The 2.2 and 3400 are kind of finicky when it comes to aftermarket stuff... I know the MSII reads fine (from what I've been told), but when I hooked up my aftermarket tach, I needed an adapter. For the best I suppose.









Re: some progress info on the V6 swap
Monday, January 07, 2008 8:03 AM
SHOoff wrote:
Quote:

You're not going to be able tot change the tach reading with a resistance change. The best thing if you want to screw around with it would be to see if you can use parts from a GA cluster in ours (maybe the tach microprocessor is different?)


Ok, but what makes the needle itself move? It has to have some sort of stepper motor to move that needle. My guess is that there is some sort of PWM that makes the needle move as it's more electrically efficient to use PWM than to vary the voltage. That's the basic thought behind my idea. I just want to lower the voltage going to that stepper so that the needle doesn't move as far. You might be right and I won't be able to get it to work. But i'm determined to get that tach working.

The CEL is activated through a seperate line like the speedometer is. I'm guessing it's in case of an ECU going dead where it would possibly stop outputting the data stream but it will fault out to powering that line and turning the light on...

The motor is a strange setup. It has two windings. It works similar to a compass, where a field will pull the needle to one direction or another. By varying the intensity and polarity of either of these windings, you can litterally point the needle where you want it to go. It's not a stepper motor. It doesn't use PWM for control. I'll try to get a good video of one of the motors on the desk with voltage run to the different windings. It might make more sense after seeing that.

The CEL is a separate wire, with a positive voltage to turn the light on.






Re: some progress info on the V6 swap
Monday, January 07, 2008 9:02 AM
Anyone know how I can check to see if my fuel sender is working right?

That wire at the cluster is just not providing any resistance and the gauge maxes out completly when hooked up.

Re: some progress info on the V6 swap
Monday, January 07, 2008 10:04 AM
Have you checked pin D9 on the C100 (firewall) connector?





Re: some progress info on the V6 swap
Monday, January 07, 2008 12:11 PM
No what wire is that?
Re: some progress info on the V6 swap
Monday, January 07, 2008 2:39 PM
That's where the fuel level sensor is from the body harness.





Re: some progress info on the V6 swap
Tuesday, January 08, 2008 2:42 AM
Quiklilcav wrote:The motor is a strange setup. It has two windings. It works similar to a compass, where a field will pull the needle to one direction or another. By varying the intensity and polarity of either of these windings, you can litterally point the needle where you want it to go. It's not a stepper motor. It doesn't use PWM for control. I'll try to get a good video of one of the motors on the desk with voltage run to the different windings. It might make more sense after seeing that.

The CEL is a separate wire, with a positive voltage to turn the light on.


If you could, i'd like to take a look at that. Just the way it works alone sounds interesting.

"if it can be done, it can be un-done" Regardless of how it works, there has to be some way to modify it.





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