some progress info on the V6 swap - Page 49 - Third Generation Forum

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Re: some progress info on the V6 swap
Tuesday, January 29, 2008 9:41 PM
No I should of explained a little better. Its not for my swap. Mine is done. Some one asked me about it the 4 spd

A 97 4 speed auto is a elec shift I didnt think they had e shifts back then.
Any way they wanted to use the stock J 4spd auto in their 3400 swap. Could that be done, is that like the e shift that I had in mine before the swap? So He would be better off swaping to the grand am auto, but then the speedo goes south doesnt it. Any way, I told him to come here to post his own questions cause I dont know much about the older swaps.

I need some turbo help on my s10 If any one would care to give me their advice, I have encountered some issues. Message me sI can tell you what went wrong.


01 cav w/01 3400 gam gt 4t45e


Re: some progress info on the V6 swap
Wednesday, January 30, 2008 4:23 AM
joe malechowski wrote:No I should of explained a little better. Its not for my swap. Mine is done. Some one asked me about it the 4 spd

A 97 4 speed auto is a elec shift I didnt think they had e shifts back then...

LOL. electronic shifts have been the norm for GM for close to 15 years now.
They started with the RWD, but took the technology into the FWD cars pretty quickly. IIRC, the 4L60e and 4L80e have been around since about 1990.






Re: some progress info on the V6 swap
Wednesday, January 30, 2008 8:40 PM
I'm going to use the 2nd gen harness and ecm for mine, but I have a few questions. Do I HAVE to get the chip burned to run the multitec II injectors or can I change it with HPT? Also, Next winter when the car goes into storage, I'm pulling the engine and having a shop build it for me. My question is, if I build my engine to have 220-230hp, will I be ok to run it without tuning the ecm?
Re: some progress info on the V6 swap
Wednesday, January 30, 2008 8:43 PM
if you are using a second gen PCM, HPT will not support it so you will need a chip.









Re: some progress info on the V6 swap
Thursday, January 31, 2008 2:35 AM
Quiklilcav wrote:
joe malechowski wrote:No I should of explained a little better. Its not for my swap. Mine is done. Some one asked me about it the 4 spd

A 97 4 speed auto is a elec shift I didnt think they had e shifts back then...

LOL. electronic shifts have been the norm for GM for close to 15 years now.
They started with the RWD, but took the technology into the FWD cars pretty quickly. IIRC, the 4L60e and 4L80e have been around since about 1990.


Like I was saying, the 4t40e (j-body 4spd) should be activated the same way as the 4t45 is. The activation of the 2 shift solenoids should be the same. Example, turning off both shift solenoids will put the tranny in 3rd gear, which is why the tranny should default to 3rd gear if you don't have a computer running it. The only thing that i'm not sure on is since the pressure is also controlled by computer, if the pressure signal is the same. My GUESS (and i mean a guess) is that since the 4t40 and 45 are pretty close to the same that it would be the same and the computer will likely not argue. Another guess is that if the shift solenoids activate the same way that the pressure sensor signal would be the same on everything so you might be able to run the 4t40 with a 4t65 computer. But like I say, it's only a guess and I don't know for sure that i'm right.

Quote:

They started with the RWD, but took the technology into the FWD cars pretty quickly. IIRC, the 4L60e and 4L80e have been around since about 1990.

When did they start the 4t60e, I thought that was in the early or mid 90's as well. The shifting was electronic, but I believe the pressure was still run by a vacuum modulator on those.

Quote:

I'm going to use the 2nd gen harness and ecm for mine, but I have a few questions. Do I HAVE to get the chip burned to run the multitec II injectors or can I change it with HPT? Also, Next winter when the car goes into storage, I'm pulling the engine and having a shop build it for me. My question is, if I build my engine to have 220-230hp, will I be ok to run it without tuning the ecm?


The computer will not like anything other than the 3.1 injectors in reality.

The multitec 2 injectors are a different impedence than the 3.1 injectors. So the computer will get all wacky and I believe what happens is that you run overly rich. Rich is better than running lean, but continuously running the engine like that isn't good. You'll start fouling plugs and stuff way before you should.

Running a bigger multitec-1 injector (which I believe can be found in the 3400's from before 2000, might wanna double check me on that though) will be more effective, but the size is different than what's programmed into your computer. So while your fueling may be closer to being correct, it probably won't be right.

The best thing to do is use 3400 injectors and have a chip programmed for them regardless of if it's multitec 1 or 2. I know i've seen of guys running 3.1 injectors in the 3400 swaps. They'll work fine, but on the high end (over 5000rpm) they'll max out and you'll start to go lean. Might be able to tweak the fuel pressure some to compensate a little bit. I don't know if it would be bad enough to damage the engine, but you'll certainly lack a bit of power up top.



Re: some progress info on the V6 swap
Thursday, January 31, 2008 5:26 AM
Michael Antle wrote:I'm going to use the 2nd gen harness and ecm for mine, but I have a few questions. Do I HAVE to get the chip burned to run the multitec II injectors or can I change it with HPT? Also, Next winter when the car goes into storage, I'm pulling the engine and having a shop build it for me. My question is, if I build my engine to have 220-230hp, will I be ok to run it without tuning the ecm?

Maybe, maybe not. I've done plenty of mods to a fuel injected engine before without changing the tune and it ran fine, but I probably wasn't getting everything out of it I could. Cliche--I wish I knew then what I know now. I'm willing to bet that engine would have pulled a lot harder had I actually known how to tune it. I would not recommend building an engine and not properly tuning it. If you're going to spend the money on the build, don't cheap out with a very important component.
SHOoff wrote:
quiklilcav wrote:They started with the RWD, but took the technology into the FWD cars pretty quickly. IIRC, the 4L60e and 4L80e have been around since about 1990.

When did they start the 4t60e, I thought that was in the early or mid 90's as well. The shifting was electronic, but I believe the pressure was still run by a vacuum modulator on those.

I believe it was about the same time, but I'm not 100% sure there. I do believe you're correct on the pressure still not being computer controlled. The funny thing is that in the early 90's, the trucks were for the most part still throttle body injected. They hadn't even converted to port injection yet, but they started using computer controlled transmissions. Kind of odd.





Re: some progress info on the V6 swap
Thursday, January 31, 2008 8:39 PM
I wouldnt want to try that J 4spd auto with the 3400 pcm. to much work if it doesn t work out. Thats one for the reasons that I used the grand am trans. I didnt want to pull it back out. Plus the cav trans had different gear ratio's. That would be great for torque but fuel mileage would suck a little more. I actually think it would bang into gear with the j trans. long story but I had my pcm flashed to a malibu, different ratio, the other way , and it slipped something awful.
I dont think it would make a diff on the 3 speed auto cause they are fluid pressure shifts, those should swap and shift just fine.

I just bought a 4t45e (gam) for a 2000 gam for a customer, 300 smackers, not too bad, 60K . theirs is slipping badly.

It is Identical to my 01, So for any one wanting to know. the 00 and 01 gt transmissions are the same and take the cav axles with no problem. the only thing is that the shaft seals are dealer items only, they come in a kit with the inner riding race. Dont bother at local parts stores, they dont have what you need. You will have to fab a tool to remove the race. contact me and Ill tell you how to make one if needed. And make sure your used gam trans has the passenger side stubb shaft in it, you will need that in order to use it with the cav axles. The stubb shaft is about 5 inches long, splines on both ends, it usually gets stuck on the axle when its removed.


01 cav w/01 3400 gam gt 4t45e

Re: some progress info on the V6 swap
Thursday, January 31, 2008 8:40 PM
Well..... it probably has a lot to do with the processing power of the ECU in a vehicle. I mean I'm sitting here using a 2.4Ghz machine to post on the .org, and likely many others are too. But then get out to my car, and the Cavalier relies on the operation of a processor running at only 24Mhz, if it had the MS-I chip instead of the MS-II it would only be running on 8mhz. And it has to make a lot of calculations continiously cuz look how fast that engine runs. My guess is that the ECU in most cars has about the same ammount of processing power as a scientific calculator.

Of course, what the hell else would it be watching it the trucks though. Since port injection was available and even on 8 cylinder engines. MPFI is just a batch firing of 2 banks of injectors anyways in a GM car. Perhaps it was just one of those ways to be cheap rather than good.





Re: some progress info on the V6 swap
Friday, February 01, 2008 8:34 AM
Well if you think about it, though, a purpose-built computer doesn't need to have a very high processing speed, because it's running dedicated signal paths, etc. Not like true software-based programs like on a PC. When ECMs are in the Ghz range, rather than Mhz, we'll probably be seeing damn near flat torque and HP numbers.





Re: some progress info on the V6 swap
Friday, February 01, 2008 12:50 PM
I'm having a chip burned to run 3400 injectors even if I keep the engine stock. But if I've already got the chip for the newer injectors, and I modify the engine then, will it make me run lean? I've currently got my eye on a 2ng gen Z24. I can get it for probably $1000. Tranny is gone though. 2.8 car in MINT condition inside and out, never winter driven or smoked in. If the guy still has it in a few weeks I might buy it an put a tranny in it and use it for the summer, while I build a 3400 and collect parts. The when storage tiome comes I can do the swap over the winter.
Re: some progress info on the V6 swap
Saturday, February 02, 2008 2:42 AM
Quiklilcav wrote:Well if you think about it, though, a purpose-built computer doesn't need to have a very high processing speed, because it's running dedicated signal paths, etc. Not like true software-based programs like on a PC. When ECMs are in the Ghz range, rather than Mhz, we'll probably be seeing damn near flat torque and HP numbers.


True, but processing power and memory still come into play with functionality. It just makes sense that it's going to need more processor to run a transmission and and engine. Or it's gonna need more processor to run that and the CAN protocols. And more to run traction control and that stabilitrack stuff. Yeah it's a purpose built computer, but eventually if you keep wanting to do more stuff you're going to need more computer. That's what I was getting at. Purpose built means it's made to do certain things, if you ask it to do more it might not handle that.

Joe - I looked at a new HHR SS today (last evening I guess). It was auto. I researched and found that it's running a 4t45. With that LNF, the transmission is being asked to hold back more power than the 4t65e-HD for the 97-03 GTP's. So I'd say that GM's made some significant power handling upgrades over the years. So the 4t45 is probably a good choice for anyone if they plan on future mods. But I still would assume that the 4t40 would work ok if someone wanted it to.






Re: some progress info on the V6 swap
Sunday, February 10, 2008 10:08 AM
Joe, selling the cav already?
Re: some progress info on the V6 swap
Sunday, February 10, 2008 11:17 AM
yeah , sorry to but times getting tough, need the cash.


01 cav w/01 3400 gam gt 4t45e

Re: some progress info on the V6 swap
Sunday, February 10, 2008 11:47 AM
Wish I had the cash and transportation to get it home, would make a great daily driver for me and the girlfriend.
Re: some progress info on the V6 swap
Friday, February 15, 2008 3:32 AM
Well...... according to the FedEx website my 3500 top end should be delivered sometime later today. I'll just have to wait for it to warm up before I'm able to do the install.





Re: some progress info on the V6 swap
Friday, February 15, 2008 5:31 AM
you know any one that needs a 3400 lower and upper im. for a 3100 mod. I got an extreee one. I was going to put it on the bay but im too lazy . sounds like your going to have one for sale too.

How are you going to deal with the stepper motor on the 3500 throttle?



01 cav w/01 3400 gam gt 4t45e

Re: some progress info on the V6 swap
Friday, February 15, 2008 8:38 AM
Joe- how much are you looking to get for them?
Re: some progress info on the V6 swap
Friday, February 15, 2008 1:12 PM
joe malechowski wrote:you know any one that needs a 3400 lower and upper im. for a 3100 mod. I got an extreee one. I was going to put it on the bay but im too lazy . sounds like your going to have one for sale too.

How are you going to deal with the stepper motor on the 3500 throttle?


You could always post them on 60degreev6.com. Someone there is usually looking for them. Maybe you could find some WTB posts too.

As for the 3500 upper. I can get an adapter to use a regular TB. Other than that I can actually still use the 3400's UIM on it. The 3400 UIM, believe it or not flows better than the one on the 3500. However, once you start porting things that's a whole different story.

That's the other thing..... I was thinking since I'm gonna take the heads down to get machined before I re-install them to prevent a blown head gasket. Maybe I should spend some extra money and have them ported too.





Re: some progress info on the V6 swap
Friday, February 15, 2008 2:52 PM
SHOoff wrote:That's the other thing..... I was thinking since I'm gonna take the heads down to get machined before I re-install them to prevent a blown head gasket. Maybe I should spend some extra money and have them ported too.

Do it.





Re: some progress info on the V6 swap
Friday, February 15, 2008 9:05 PM
Yeah.... so I got the stuff today. I looked at the size of the port compared to where the gasket was. Looks like there's a good amount that can be opened up.

I'll have to grab some pictures of them.





Re: some progress info on the V6 swap
Friday, February 15, 2008 9:13 PM
Ill have to go over 60deg. and see.

yummy porting....... I hate gettin the little die grinder shavings in my shoes

You guys know any one running a ,f.a.s.t system. I need to know how to recalibrate an o2 without buying an o2 from fast. long story. send me a msg so im not swiping this thread.



01 cav w/01 3400 gam gt 4t45e


Re: some progress info on the V6 swap
Friday, February 15, 2008 11:07 PM
SHOoff wrote:
Kardain wrote:^^Mine did the same thing, but in reverse (171 for run 1, low 160 for run 2).


I'm curious about something here on that. I know you're running OBD-II. I'm assuming that everything is hooked up and your ABS works and all that good stuff. I know you have HPT.

Is there such a thing as "abuse mode" in there anywhere? And if so, is it disabled?

Reason I ask is that I remember seeing something long ago when they had the new GTO come out. Something about they were trying to dyno the car, and even with the traction control turned off every time they made a dyno run they'd get less and less power. Turns out that the abuse mode in the PCM saw that the back tires were spinning and the front tires were not. And automatically assumed that they were doing burnouts with it. So each time they'd run the PCM would pull timing and such to reduce power. That just now ran across my head as to maybe why you saw such a huge power reduction between runs.


ABS is hooked up (I think), just not working... didn't work ever since I put the rear discs on.

There is an abuse mode in the ECM, AFAIK, I have it disabled. I'm attributing my issue to the fact that I couldn't get an O2 sensor reading, so that caused the "limp mode" issue.

Its a long weekend w/ no rain in sight, so I get to play with that.









Re: some progress info on the V6 swap
Saturday, February 16, 2008 2:56 AM
Here's the new toys:









Re: some progress info on the V6 swap
Saturday, February 16, 2008 2:53 PM
NICE!!! Where did you come across those at?


COMING SOON! VERY NICE!

Re: some progress info on the V6 swap
Sunday, February 17, 2008 4:21 AM
A guy on 60degreev6.com was selling them.






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