V6 swap control systems - Third Generation Forum

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V6 swap control systems
Thursday, September 13, 2012 5:25 PM
Maybe I missed something, but why is it no one has ever ran the 3400 swap on OBD 1 electronics? Chippable ecus and much simpler wiring. I see people having to fine cirtain ecu combinations and splicing them together to get a fuel gauge to work right, BCM issues etc. The secong gen guys dont seem to have an issue, plus you get to have custom gauges.

And ys i did search, this is an honest question that has been ignored in the past. Im considering this swap, being im a 95 OBD 1.5 i figured raw dawg OBD 1 would be easy.

Re: V6 swap control systems
Thursday, September 13, 2012 7:53 PM
I did, ran like @!#$. Took it out.

The 2nd gen guys are swapping into a 2nd gen car. It's easy to sit and say how great OBD-I will work, but try to interface it into OBD-II and see how easy it gets.





i find it amusing that SHOoff has nothing better to do but follow me around & be an unhelpful dick in even cross-forum. - Jon Mick
Re: V6 swap control systems
Friday, September 14, 2012 4:22 AM
Spencer wrote:

The secong gen guys dont seem to have an issue, plus you get to have custom gauges.
That's because they're using second gen electronics in second gen cars.

As for the gauges, the data streams are not identical. You will still have issues there.

At the current point, with all we have figured out, the best vehicle/ECM combination is still an 00-05 J-body with a 5 speed, and the 02-04 Impala ECM with auto tranny codes deleted. This is a clean swap, no extra wiring aside from splicing the harness into the car, and everything works properly. Once you get away from this scenario, there is no simple way to do it.

With all the other projects I have going on lately, I've set this aside, but I've been working on being able to edit the data stream description. The problem is that no tuning software addresses this, so the individual .bin files need to be sifted through and decoded so that the location of the data stream description can be found. I have all the descriptions, but accessing the location in the .bin file is a long tedious task.




I'm cleaning out my garage!
Billet upper mount for 3rd gen V6 swap!


Re: V6 swap control systems
Friday, September 14, 2012 2:46 PM
SHOff i would assume it would run like ass if you didnt have the correct chip for it. I imagine pig rich.

And thats exactly what im questioning SHO, is the INTERFACE. Why not bypass the whole intergration procedure and run the properly tuned OBD1 as found on v6z24.com.

Now i understand this wouldnt be a good option for the 2000 and newer guys, but i mean removing the OBD2 engine controller all together and not integrating anyhting and running custom gauges. It seems that people have to integrate almost for the sole purpose of having stock gauges.

Keep in mind im a 95, and dont quite have OBD2 to begin with, i have no body control module either.
Re: V6 swap control systems
Saturday, September 15, 2012 4:33 AM
Your 95 isn't exactly OBD-I either as it was a transition year. I know it could have been chipped to work right (I even had a burner too), but the interface itself didn't want to play nice. It was easier to piggyback a MS-II unit into it. And I will tell you at first even though the A/F was coming out to about 10.5:1, it felt like it was running fine.

With an OBD-I setup you can probably get the speedo to work (just use a year that doesn't have a cable driven speedometer or you hit the governor at about 30mph), but other gauges won't come up because the datastream is not there. The fuel gauge worked on mine, but would run itself up and down an awful lot, and stopped as soon as I put a factory ECM back in (not sure why) You won't run into BCM issues, though the courtesy center acts a little funky without the ECM present, but for the most part will run alone fine by itself. Your ABS will function fine with or without the factory ECM.

Best option I'd say if using an OBD-I ECM would be to piggyback it along side the OBD-II system in the car, use the OBD-I for the VSS as long as the output is making the speedo point to the right spot. Use a 3-wire CTS so that both of them will pick up the coolant temp. And still I'm not sure how to get the tach to work. I never successfully got the tach to work with 2 ECM's tied into the ICM, To get the tach to work the factory ECU will have to read the engine speed. The 3rd gen tach does not operate the same as the 2nd gen tach. And if you do get it to work, I'd expect it to be wrong like when you swap a v6 into a 4cyl 2nd gen, and I'm not sure you can mod the 3rd gen cluster to make it work like you can the 2nd gen's. Though, you could just use a tach-less cluster.

One thing I always wondered.... do the 95's have a removable PROM in them? If so, I think the 94 ECM's should be close to, if not the same as the 95's. If the PROM's will swap over, that might be a real super easy way to get the 3400 running by making it think it's running a 3.1.

If you can get it going, sweet. I'd love to see it, get some videos when you do.





i find it amusing that SHOoff has nothing better to do but follow me around & be an unhelpful dick in even cross-forum. - Jon Mick
Re: V6 swap control systems
Saturday, September 15, 2012 9:58 AM
See, were still dwelling on using the stock gauges.......

Yes, my 95 is a chippable ecm, i think it was only the manual trannies however.

im running the moates adapter to run custom tune already however. But yes, it does have a removable eprom.

Re: V6 swap control systems
Tuesday, September 18, 2012 4:36 AM
I misread the statement about gauges in your first post.

You can run custom gauges with any setup, and the newer electronics are more tuneable than the older ones, with better performance. Why would you step backward instead of forward?
Moates is definitely cool, but if you're swapping a newer motor into a vehicle, why use the older, less capable electronics on it instead of the ones designed for it?




I'm cleaning out my garage!
Billet upper mount for 3rd gen V6 swap!


Re: V6 swap control systems
Tuesday, September 18, 2012 2:09 PM
personally i would rater an obd2 system then obd1

if you have hp tuners you can change what u want when you want chips aren't as easy as you have to program then chip then install it



JBO since July 30, 2001
Re: V6 swap control systems
Tuesday, September 18, 2012 7:08 PM
yeah i see what youre saying but i could have bought a dozen tunes before i paid for a freakin HPTuners. Im not a tuner. This isnt a rare swap tons have done it in 2nd and 3rd gens, There plenty who produce stock to wild tunes for the swaps as well. I guess ill just have to do it and find out.

on a side note there is a guy on the turbo grand prix forums that produces chips for 3400 swapped turbo 2nd gen OBD1 z24s. This is why i want obd one, drop in and go. Not that i really want to boost or anything right now. Apparently noone had really tried it and followed through with it, So ill give it a shot.
Re: V6 swap control systems
Tuesday, September 18, 2012 7:15 PM
Mr Quick, im not really going for all out performance, my car is a show car never allowed to hit a track anyway. At least one with rules lol. Id be happy if it run stock for now. The engine should be coming with the complete harness from the firewall forward. Im not opposed to using the obd2 but i just dont have the means to make alterations. Altho a friend says he know someone with it so maybe that could be a viable option. If i run the stock 3400 operating system can i just delete the stuff i dont need and go, untill i decide to go further? Then what if i wanna boost?
Re: V6 swap control systems
Wednesday, September 19, 2012 8:15 AM
From what I understand they have a boost tun in HPT for the 3400. Which makes sense, because at some point you were able to buy an M62 kit for the Grand Am 3400's at least.







i find it amusing that SHOoff has nothing better to do but follow me around & be an unhelpful dick in even cross-forum. - Jon Mick

Re: V6 swap control systems
Wednesday, September 19, 2012 9:52 AM
SHOoff wrote:

From what I understand they have a boost tun in HPT for the 3400. Which makes sense, because at some point you were able to buy an M62 kit for the Grand Am 3400's at least.


This is correct, I have seen tables in 3400 PCM's that read up to 7psi of boost in a MAP value.

-Chris-



-Sweetness-
-Turbocharged-
Slowly but surely may some day win this race...
Re: V6 swap control systems
Wednesday, September 19, 2012 6:21 PM
oooh this excites me
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