awd ecotec cav? - Page 2 - Third Generation Forum

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Re: awd ecotec cav?
Monday, April 08, 2013 5:02 PM
Mr. Quick wrote:

OK I found a couple of pictures of the F40 on a 2.8 with AWD. They're not great, but you can see that the transfer case is bolted onto the output of the transmission, and then to the block. Obviously the end that attaches to the block would need to be modified, but no different than modifying a jack shaft to go on a different engine.

It does look like the transfer case is the same between the auto and manual versions of the 9-3 Aero, so that first link Oedwards posted should be it.


that's excellent info and the pictures aren't that bad.

I just wish I could see a complete unit OFF the engine so I can really see what else is there.

the only downside is it looks like the rear output would be no where close to the center line of a j-body, so a modification to the floor might be a necessity.

the only reason I like my "evo center diff getrag mod" is because I can actually find the parts needed to do the retrofit.

I'd rather use OEM stuff anyday, but if you can't find the parts it's sort of a "back yourself into a corner" mod and I don't like those kinds of mods..


I want to OPEN up my options, not limit them.

there has to be a source for these parts/ information that we aren't finding.
I could care less about 6 gears, but AWD would be a worth while endeavour... imagine having 600awhp and being able to actually use it...

the only other thing I don't like about the Saab is the added electronics.
the evo setup would be purely mechanical... the Viscuous Coupling Unit on the Evo 8's AWD system operates purely on fluid coupling instead of electronic controls.

most of them upgrade to the ACD (active center differential) so finding VCUs is kind of easy.








Re: awd ecotec cav?
Monday, April 08, 2013 5:36 PM
-MD- Enforcer wrote:

This is damn interesting.


THIS



Re: awd ecotec cav?
Tuesday, April 09, 2013 8:09 AM
DaFlyinSkwirl (Pj) wrote:

the only downside is it looks like the rear output would be no where close to the center line of a j-body, so a modification to the floor might be a necessity...

...the only other thing I don't like about the Saab is the added electronics.
the evo setup would be purely mechanical... the Viscuous Coupling Unit on the Evo 8's AWD system operates purely on fluid coupling instead of electronic controls.

most of them upgrade to the ACD (active center differential) so finding VCUs is kind of easy.
I'm not sure about the output being off center. The 9-3 isn't much different in width from a J-body, and the driveshaft is centered in them. I think it's just the perspective from the pic.

As for the electronics, it's only in the rear diff, and I believe there are rear diffs on other Saabs that can be used which don't have the eLSD system. Also, IIRC, the F46 transfer case is used on some other GM's, so there might be even more options.

As for non-OEM parts, I give that a lot of thought. Probably more than I should. I have to force myself back to looking at parts I can get from a salvage yard instead of having custom parts made. LOL.




I'm cleaning out my garage!
Billet upper mount for 3rd gen V6 swap!


Re: awd ecotec cav?
Thursday, April 11, 2013 10:22 AM
I managed to get some pictures of a unit off a car, so here they are.
They are, in fact, the same between the auto and the manual, so the donor car list just increased considerably, but they do tend to run upwards of $800, because they're still not that plentiful.

Looking at the bolt pattern, I'd say it's not just going to bolt on to an F23, but it may be a possible mate with some modification. By my estimates, there may be two holes that line up, but that will definitely not be sufficient, so someone would need to really look at the two parts closely to determine whether or not it could work.


Attachments
F46-1.jpg (162k)
F46-2.jpg (153k)
F46-3.jpg (127k)


I'm cleaning out my garage!
Billet upper mount for 3rd gen V6 swap!


Re: awd ecotec cav?
Friday, April 12, 2013 2:49 PM
We had a 2004 Buick Rendezvous come into work yesterday. I know it's not an ecotec but it's t-case could be used for the v-6/2.2OHV guys, atleast for the auto guys, I would think. Might have major clearance issues with the sub frame though.




- Your not-so-local, untrained, uncertified, backyard mechanic. But my @!#$ runs
Re: awd ecotec cav?
Friday, April 19, 2013 8:33 PM
very good info guys! im gonna have to start collecting parts and figuring out what brackets and such need to be fabbed up. my biggest concern is having a setup that can handle some power, but this stuff here should be good enough....hopefully, lol!
Re: awd ecotec cav?
Wednesday, May 01, 2013 2:04 AM
Fyi my 2004 Saab 9-3 with the 2.0 the starter seems to be in the exact same spot as the Cavaliers. If you all need any pics etc lmk.



Re: awd ecotec cav?
Wednesday, May 01, 2013 4:28 AM
More pics always help.





Re: awd ecotec cav?
Wednesday, May 01, 2013 7:16 AM
SLO CAV (no more) now slosaab wrote:

Fyi my 2004 Saab 9-3 with the 2.0 the starter seems to be in the exact same spot as the Cavaliers. If you all need any pics etc lmk.
I'm not sure you have the same engine that's in the 08-09, though.



I'm cleaning out my garage!
Billet upper mount for 3rd gen V6 swap!


Re: awd ecotec cav?
Wednesday, May 01, 2013 7:34 PM
One issue to consider as well... If you are mix/matching trans and rear diffs, you may run into issues with matching the gear ratios.



Re: awd ecotec cav?
Thursday, May 02, 2013 7:10 AM
strat81 wrote:

One issue to consider as well... If you are mix/matching trans and rear diffs, you may run into issues with matching the gear ratios.
I've thought of it, and haven't gotten around to confirming this, but I'm not sure it makes a difference on some of these cars, meaning I believe the rear diff is 1:1, because the transfer case hooks onto the transmission after the main diff. If I'm correct, changing one FDR gear set changes all of it.




I'm cleaning out my garage!
Billet upper mount for 3rd gen V6 swap!



Re: awd ecotec cav?
Thursday, May 02, 2013 7:33 AM
If I could find an AWD Saab parts car, I would make this happen! In for updates!




Currently #4 in Ecotec Forced Induction horsepower ratings. 505.8 WHP 414WTQ!!!
Currently 6th quickest Ecotec on the .org -12.453 @ 116.45 MPH!!!

Re: awd ecotec cav?
Monday, July 08, 2013 7:42 PM
Any updates!?
Re: awd ecotec cav?
Sunday, September 15, 2013 1:03 PM
Dave De Stefano wrote:

ok guys, ive been thinking about this for a while, and it has to be doable, right? pretty much saturn vue drivetrain swap, with custom rear subframe, cut driveshaft tunnel, custom driveshaft, and probably custom rear suspension all together.

that much we know, right?

now, i know ppl have been wondering about this for a while on here, and i might take the plunge and try it out with my 01 z that i swapped an eco into, but first i need info. im going to look as much as i can, but im not sure where to find this info.

pretty much all i want to know is how much power can the stock transfer case and rear diff hold on the vue? cant be too much cuz they are kinda tiny, but its also a heavier vehicle. i dont want to even think about all the time/money/effort that will be needed for this if i will have to stay with a stock engine(which im sure is what ill end up finding out).

lmk thoughts guys/gals, and if any of you know of where i can find any of this info, please let me know.

thanks!

Love to see just how it wouldbe done? Love to see a nice awd sporty coupe like a RS or a Z24. Why should the high dollar imports have all the fun, huh?

Dave

Re: awd ecotec cav?
Tuesday, February 11, 2014 10:43 PM
bringing this back from the dead


I've looked at every single Saab model multiple times trying to find concrete information on this topic and still come up with dead ends.

until tonight.


I found a transfer case on ebay as well as the transmission it mates to.

here's the mating surface of the transmission. you can clearly see the torque converter in there so this is obviously an automatic


and here's the transfer case. the hole near the top of the picture is for the driveshaft that goes towards the rear of the car


you can see (although it's a little tricky) that this is just like the evo setup with an inner and outer spline configuration.

the center differential would actually be mounted inside the transmission case where our front diff is.
the front diff is going to be mounted in the transfer case. you can see the inner/outer spline input on the shaft protruding from the transfer case very clearly.

so this is our best bet for AWD.

now, the transmission listed in the ebay auction was NOT for an ecotec. the pattern was very clearly different, but since everyone continues to talk about the mystical beast known as the 2.0 turbo awd saab, I did a quick search in car-part.com junkyard metasearch for saab 9-3 from 2000 and up every single year trying to find the combination with what we're looking for.


2009 saab 9-3 manual 6 speed AWD 2.0 turbo

that's what we're looking for and is our best bet for finding an AWD transmission.

I located one in Niagra Falls, NY and emailed one of the sales representatives to see if he would email me pictures of the transmission that would HOPEFULLY lead us on the path to discovering a doable OEM AWD setup for these cars.

if this is a dead end, I give up on an AWD cavalier being realistically possible without serious chassis reworking or fabrication.





Re: awd ecotec cav?
Wednesday, February 12, 2014 3:40 AM
Pj thanks for the additional information.

Also, this is the exact trim it was available on.
2009 SAAB 9-3 2.0T XWD 4DR AWD SPORT SEDAN
It was available with or without (E)LSD

The F464100 is of the rear end.
The F464060 is listed as the front universal.

There is no longer P/N's in the system.

http://usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/cars-trucks/Saab_9-3-Wagon/2009/specs/9-3-Wagon-2.0T-SportCombi---XWD-306905/
http://www.hirsch-performance.ch/Content.aspx?path=/News/HPNews/e07e482d-9fac-4a69-9709-226ae7bae2ef
http://www.cargurus.com/Cars/l-Used-2009-Saab-9-3-2.0T-xWD-t34091#listing=76487934







Edited 3 time(s). Last edited Wednesday, February 12, 2014 3:53 AM
Attachments
F464100.gif (45k)
F464060.gif (8k)



Re: awd ecotec cav?
Wednesday, February 12, 2014 5:06 AM
Re: awd ecotec cav?
Wednesday, February 12, 2014 5:12 AM
Every time I go to the yard I look for one. No luck, ever.



"In Oldskool we trust"
Re: awd ecotec cav?
Wednesday, February 12, 2014 6:12 AM
PJ, excellent pics. That is definitely the F46 transfer case I've been talking about, and posted pics of on the last page. It's definitely just an add-on to a FWD tranny, no different than adding a jack shaft, which is why I don't think the FDR of the tranny matters...The ratio between input on the transfer case and the rear axles should be 1:1.

I have seen these on ebay regularly, and I'm really really fighting the urge to pick one up with the F40 from a G6.

All other things aside, though, if the Saab 2.0t has a different pattern than the Eco in the J, it shouldn't be too hard to drop in the whole drivetrain. With all of the work you did on making the other versions of the Eco work, I'm sure making the Saab one wouldn't be hard.


Mike, the rear diff we would want would be the Haldex LSD. I have the model somewhere, as well as a list of vehicles it comes in. When I find it, I'll post it up.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edited Wednesday, February 12, 2014 6:19 AM

I'm cleaning out my garage!
Billet upper mount for 3rd gen V6 swap!


Re: awd ecotec cav?
Wednesday, February 12, 2014 7:02 AM
This would be awesome I found j-body looking for AWD stuff like this I was going to suggest looking at a vibe setup since they have a decent awd system though but if this Saab stuff work that would be sweet!

Oh and I just wanted to point out one thing too. In this post below

DaFlyinSkwirl (Pj) wrote:

also, when looking up information on the F28:
The transfer gearbox in the 4x4 models - the same box was used in the Vauxhall Cavalier 4x4 - was somewhat on the flimsy side, liable to suffer damage from conditions such as minor differences in tyre wear or tyre pressure between front and rear axles. Since front and rear tyres would naturally wear at different rates in normal driving, it was necessary to swap front with rear tyres every 1500 miles. All four tyres had to be of the same make and model, and all four tyres had to be replaced at the same time - if one tyre was damaged or punctured, the three remaining good tyres also had to be replaced. In addition there were other maintenance requirements which were both exacting and unusual. Neglect of these points through ignorance or a misconceived attempt to save money was common, and was likely to lead to very expensive failures of the transfer gearbox

doesn't sound fun to me.

throw a torsen LSD in the F23 and call it a day.


That is true of ANY awd setup it isn't that the transmissions are all weak. The problem is that by the tire pressure being drastically different tread (e.g. replacing one tire with a different brand.) or tread wear on one or more of the tires being different the trans can't handle that because of there being constant power to all wheels it causes different rates of revolution for the different tires and eventually will cause torque bind or permanent transmission damage.

Now that sounds REALLY bad but there are only a few scenarios where that will make any difference 1. If you blow a tire in that case driving continuously on the spare or replacing only one tire without shaving it to match the rest or buying the same tire as the rest. 2. If you have a slow leak in a tire and don't notice it for a loooooooonnnngggg time.

Honestly the only time you will have a problem with and awd trans is if you do something stupid. I only know all of this because I am a huge subaru fan so I just happen to know a lot about awd systems.


2002 Pontiac Sunfire SE Sedan 2.2l Ecotec 4 Speed Auto.
Re: awd ecotec cav?
Thursday, February 13, 2014 1:53 AM
Mr. Quick wrote:

PJ, excellent pics. That is definitely the F46 transfer case I've been talking about, and posted pics of on the last page. It's definitely just an add-on to a FWD tranny, no different than adding a jack shaft, which is why I don't think the FDR of the tranny matters...The ratio between input on the transfer case and the rear axles should be 1:1.

I have seen these on ebay regularly, and I'm really really fighting the urge to pick one up with the F40 from a G6.

All other things aside, though, if the Saab 2.0t has a different pattern than the Eco in the J, it shouldn't be too hard to drop in the whole drivetrain. With all of the work you did on making the other versions of the Eco work, I'm sure making the Saab one wouldn't be hard.


Mike, the rear diff we would want would be the Haldex LSD. I have the model somewhere, as well as a list of vehicles it comes in. When I find it, I'll post it up.


the inner/ outer output from the transmission and the matching input on the transfer case means, to me, that it's just like an evo transmission setup

in otherwords, you can't just bolt this on to an existing FWD transmission to convert it to AWD.

in the evo setup (and by proxy, the saab setup) the center differential is what the ring gear is boltd to and is actually in the transaxle case... where our front diff would be.

the transfer case is where the actual front diff is... in the "transfer case"

the transfer case is a misnomer because that is not where the AWD component really is.. it's in the transaxle housing itself.


the inner/outer splines is the dead give away. one shaft rotates inside the other.. power transfers from the center diff through the transfer case's jack shaft to the other side of the car.
the transfer case then also does the job of holding the front differential, and also redirecting power from the other half of the center diff rearward.

so again, in short, you can't just bolt the T-case onto an existing getrag and convert to AWD. you need the matching transmission as well.

the saab 2.0T should be a variant of the LSJ, although Saab RPO codes are a little different, it's most commonly called the LK9 in GM speak.


the rarity of this transmission makes me almost completely against doing this. if you ever blow if up, you're completely screwed.
also, the T-case will drastically reduce ground clearance.. however it may make life a bit easier with sneaking it underneath the steering rack... which, that is still a serious concern.







Re: awd ecotec cav?
Thursday, February 13, 2014 3:59 AM
Raise the rack, and bump steer to your hearts content.






Re: awd ecotec cav?
Monday, February 17, 2014 6:10 PM
Mr. Quick wrote:

strat81 wrote:

One issue to consider as well... If you are mix/matching trans and rear diffs, you may run into issues with matching the gear ratios.
I've thought of it, and haven't gotten around to confirming this, but I'm not sure it makes a difference on some of these cars, meaning I believe the rear diff is 1:1, because the transfer case hooks onto the transmission after the main diff. If I'm correct, changing one FDR gear set changes all of it.


From my experience in the Subaru world, the fd in the transmission has to match the rear end. Ie if you upgrade to a 4.11 or 4.44 trans, you need to get the matching rear diff. Otherwise your wheels are spinning at different speeds.

Pretty sure even in this instance that your rear end will need to match your fd in the trans.

As for a rear end option, you could also look at a wrx rear subframe which depending on measurements may bolt in the like the nbody irs setup. Track widths aren't too different between the two cars and you'd retain the 5x100 bolt pattern and could use the available brake and bushing upgrades available. There are a number of factory ratios available as well as a decent aftermarket for a custom ratio if needed.




Re: awd ecotec cav?
Tuesday, February 18, 2014 5:19 AM
OK, PJ and Strat, I'm looking at all of the pictures of the transfer case again, and I can't see how that could hold the FDR. The Saab 9-3 has a FDR of 3.55:1. That case isn't large enough to hold that ratio. I've got a blow-up of the transfer case somewhere. Let me see if I can dig it up. I can tell you that there was no diff in it.



I'm cleaning out my garage!
Billet upper mount for 3rd gen V6 swap!


Re: awd ecotec cav?
Tuesday, February 18, 2014 7:36 AM
Found it. This is a blowout of the transfer case.

Attachments
F46 blowout.jpg (107k)


I'm cleaning out my garage!
Billet upper mount for 3rd gen V6 swap!


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