Which Ecotec should I pick to swap? - Third Generation Forum

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Which Ecotec should I pick to swap?
Thursday, July 14, 2011 4:06 PM
Hi, im new to the forum so im hoping anyone who reads this will have a little patience with me.

Ive recently picked up a 2001 Pontiac Sunfire. It has a 2.4 LD9 with a 4spd 4T40E auto transmission. It was not running when I purchased it and owning 2 of them previously, I suspected and confirmed a failed main bearing. ($300 car with a solid and unrepaired body and rear frame so don't think im a total idiot please.)

Ive decided I am going to put a lot of effort and time into this car to make a really nice Sunfire, and I am going to put in a 2.2 Ecotec. I have read and will be following the instructions on doing the swap here:
http://www.j-body.org/forums/read.php?f=30&i=38274&t=38274

I wouls say have very solid knowledge of the 2.4 but im unfamiliar with the 2.2 and how its operated within the vehicle.

MY QUESTIONS are.

#1 Will the 4T40E bolt up to the Ecotec engine? I would really like to keep the traction control option. If not, which 4speed auto will directly swap in without having to alter anything beyond a possible custom Transmission mount?

#2 Which version of the 2.2 Ecotec should I choose? Can I use a newer one such as one from a 2008 or 2009 vehicle?
-----I know the first response to this is going to be "It depends what you want to do with it" and my answer is, I want a solid fuel efficient car that gets 35+MPG on the highway, and I know the 2003 versions are not rated as high as the newer ones. I don't have any plans on adding a ton of power here, but I would like to leave the possibility of a supercharger at a later date(once I research it more and/if i feel comfortable enough to do that.
My Horsepower goal range is 160-180 with matching or slightly over torque and as I said before Id like to get above 35MPG on the highway and 25 city. (rather than the 2003 rating of 20-23 and 30.

#3 What do adjustments do I need to make if I go with a 2008 engine over a stock offered 2003? Would I need the ECU from an 05 Sunfire, or from the car the engine was made to operate in?(this is the part that confuses me the most) like is the cutoff an 05 ecotec because that was the last year for the sunfire?

Please help Im really excited to take on this project but Ive hit a few bumps in my preliminary planning that I need to get over.

Thanks

Re: Which Ecotec should I pick to swap?
Thursday, July 14, 2011 4:27 PM
1. I cant answer if the ld9 auto will bolt up but I'd say the bellhousings are most likely different.

2.The 2.2 eco out of an 02-05 cav is what you want, the later ones are not cable driven throttle body and the crank trigger might be different on the newwer ones. But if you pick up an external crank tigger you could run a lsj, or 2.4 with a 2.2 head....but keeping it simple just get the regular 2.2 from an 02-05. I'm on a bone stock eco with the blower kit and full exhaust with a tune and I make the power in my sig. you should be around 200 at the wheels with just the gm reflash if you do that route.

3.just get an ecu from a 02-05 cav/fire. I just paid 35 shipped off ebay for a spare ecu.






Re: Which Ecotec should I pick to swap?
Thursday, July 14, 2011 4:32 PM
1. No you will the trans from the ecotec. U will also get the TC with any ecotec trans u get.

2. Any ecotec from 02 to 05 from a J will work fine with the harness and pcm and trans, simple swap as I'm in the midst of doing it right now. Anything from 06 and higher, I think, have a diffrent crank trigger and you will need to purchase a crank trigger from a member here to get it to work with our pcm's. Easier to just stick with 02 to 05 eco's. U can use the engine from a cavalier, sunfire, malibu classic and ion, but the malibu u will need to get things such as motor mounts, brackets, J engine harness and the ion, from what I have been told u will need all that stuff also and as well as a oil pan. So there are a few options.

3.if u stick with 02 to 05 from a j then its all plug and play. I took a ecotec from a 05 classic malibu and I had to get the engine harness the motor mounts and brackets, but I was able to use everything from the motor, except the ac compressor which is diffrent.


Other then that just get a pcm from a J with the eco and plug and play and your done! Goodluck!




Re: Which Ecotec should I pick to swap?
Thursday, July 14, 2011 4:34 PM
And jeff is right. Anything newer then 05 is all drive by wire meaning u will need to change the throttle body, the power steering pump and possibly the intake camshaft, and valve cover. Not to mention u can't use the pcm from that car.




Re: Which Ecotec should I pick to swap?
Friday, July 15, 2011 12:11 AM
Great! thanks a lot guys. This answered my question on the engine end.

As far as the transmission goes...

The reason I asked if the 4T40E transmission would work is because in 2002(at least) the ecotec was coupled with a 4T40E in the Sunfire.
Is this a sensor issue or an internal issue that prevents me from using this transmission? Or is it just a reliability thing?

If it is insistant that I use a different transmission, which one am I looking for? Will a 4T45E work?
Re: Which Ecotec should I pick to swap?
Friday, July 15, 2011 2:11 AM
What you really need to ask is, why must it be an auto? A stock 2.2 5 spd will struggle to get above 35 mpg on the highways and could get 25 in the city if you drive like a granny, the auto wont even be close. My mom's auto couldnt even get over 30 on the highways.


1994 Saturn SL2 Home Coming Edition: backup car
2002 Chevy Cavalier LS Sport Coupe: In a Junk Yard
1995 Mazda Miata R-package Class=STR
Sponsored by: Kronos Performance

WPI Class of '12 Mechanical Engineering
WPI SAE Risk and Sustainability Management Officer
Re: Which Ecotec should I pick to swap?
Friday, July 15, 2011 4:31 AM
My 5speed, supercharged eco gets, 20-22mpg on my 3 mile commute (one way) over the week never going above 40mph, and on road trips to detroit I've attcheived 33-36mpg depending on weather I'm cruising at 55-80mph.....just wanted to throw that out there.




Re: Which Ecotec should I pick to swap?
Friday, July 15, 2011 5:51 AM
I have an auto ecotec and if I granny drive can still get 30mpg and that's with over 100,000 miles. When it was much younger, granny driving i got almost 35 mpg...it's due for a new O2 sensor.


"big boom big boom"-Adam Savage. "quack damn you"-Jamie Hyneman "mythbusters"
Re: Which Ecotec should I pick to swap?
Friday, July 15, 2011 8:47 AM
lol the 03-05 cars/engines were only rated at 30MPG on the highway...
thats why i wanted the newer engine, its not the transmission that is the issue with the gas mileage its the setup of the engine. There were several alterations that came after 2005(when the block was redesigned and strengthened) primarily being the heads that were taken from the 2.4eco(if im not mistaken) Thats why even a chevy cobalt isn't rated over 32MPG highway until after 2005-06.

I want to use the 4T40E because Ive changed several of them out of my other cars and have had 2 of them apart. I know it, im familiar with it, and thats what im comfortable with. if its not going to work thats fine, but im not changing over to a 5 speed just because 'its better'

I don't know why everyone tries to talk me into this. The guy I was talking to at the parts store made the same points. But for me and where I drive and what I deal with on the road, its just an added distraction for me to have to manually shift my car. Plus i don't care what anyone says, unless you are racing and need your RPMs to peak before shifting every time, no human being is going to shift more efficiently or consistently than a computer controlled transmission. Its just not going to happen and i don't care how long youve been driving standard cars, how many years youve coasted stop sign to stop sign rolling in neutral, or how many redlight to redlight races youve won.


So back to my original question. In 2002 the Pontiac Sunfire used a 2.2 Ecotec engine with a 4T40E transmission. Why does everyone say that this will not work? somebody learn me here because this is either widely overlooked or im missing something right in front of my face.
Re: Which Ecotec should I pick to swap?
Friday, July 15, 2011 9:01 AM
The 2.2 didn't get the 2.4 vvt head until 08. 07 and up the blocks are stronger. The cobalt eco has a better mpg rating because of the electronic throttle body and how it works with the engine management.

What extra distraction of shifting?


1994 Saturn SL2 Home Coming Edition: backup car
2002 Chevy Cavalier LS Sport Coupe: In a Junk Yard
1995 Mazda Miata R-package Class=STR
Sponsored by: Kronos Performance

WPI Class of '12 Mechanical Engineering
WPI SAE Risk and Sustainability Management Officer
Re: Which Ecotec should I pick to swap?
Friday, July 15, 2011 10:57 AM
Thanks for clearing the year range up for me on the 2.2 update years. I was following this as far as the update information and it says 2007. Maybe it was a 2007 production for 2008 model year? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GM_Family_II_engine#L61

Since youre obviously familiar with this engine, maybe you can help me here with a question thats a little more specific.
Can I put the 2.4 head and the camshafts from a 07+ on a pre 2007 ecotec to achieve the better gas mileage and power?
Will the computer compensate for this or will there need to be a flash or some sort of reprogramming of the computer? Or is this why they incorporated the E37 ECM?
Can you run the parts on the vehicle without adding that E37? If I do have to ad that ECM is it still going to run the rest of the engine properly?

Or would it be easier/possible to incorporate the Electronic Throttle Body onto the older engine?

Im even more confused than I was when I started looking into this. Maybe I should get a 2.2/trans combo from a 2002 sunfire and just drop it in and upgrade it instead of getting the newer engine. I just want a sunfire that gets better gas mileage and still get me up and down all the hills around here... The work/changeover isn't a problem, im mechanically inclined. My problem is I don't know enough about the Ecotec to get what I want out of it in the car that I want it in.

ok i get the point lol youre comfortable shifting and im not. id like to get passed this please because a manual switch isnt what i want.

Re: Which Ecotec should I pick to swap?
Friday, July 15, 2011 11:27 AM
The 2.4 head has VVT and would need one is the computers from such a car. Same goes for the electronic throttle body. But you would need to do some real tough stuff for minimal gain. As in wire up the cast as if you were putting in a standalone, run just enough wires to the stock computer to run the gauges and then run the whole harness from the doner cobalt. You still won't have tac because of the different crank trigger wheel, needing either an msd tac driver our an external trigger wheel.


1994 Saturn SL2 Home Coming Edition: backup car
2002 Chevy Cavalier LS Sport Coupe: In a Junk Yard
1995 Mazda Miata R-package Class=STR
Sponsored by: Kronos Performance

WPI Class of '12 Mechanical Engineering
WPI SAE Risk and Sustainability Management Officer
Re: Which Ecotec should I pick to swap?
Saturday, July 16, 2011 10:29 AM
HP tuners can help with MPG. As far as the 4T40E, it probably has a different bell housing between the ECO and LD9.


- Your not-so-local, untrained, uncertified, backyard mechanic. But my @!#$ runs
Re: Which Ecotec should I pick to swap?
Saturday, July 16, 2011 12:28 PM
Due the biggest reason in the MPG increase is computer tuning from the factory.

Better MPG's can be gotten with custom tuning.

In regards to transmission shifting, I would agree with you in the right situation, but a Jbody 4 speed can't shift faster then a good drive in a 5 speed car.



FU Tuning



Re: Which Ecotec should I pick to swap?
Saturday, July 16, 2011 11:27 PM
Screaming for Mercy!! wrote:


In regards to transmission shifting, I would agree with you in the right situation, but a Jbody 4 speed can't shift faster then a good drive in a 5 speed car.


Nah, you just need to push the gas pedal down more
Re: Which Ecotec should I pick to swap?
Sunday, July 17, 2011 7:01 AM
Final verdict on the transmission issue.

I went to the local dealership here near pittsburgh where my buddy works and asked him to see service manuals for the 2005 Cobalt and the 2002 Pontiac Sunfire and went to the transmission pages.

To my surprise they BOTH had teardown and service procedures labeled 4T40E ONLY. (and as you probably know the cobalt uses a 4T45E) This was when another mechanic walking by thats a little older than me, heard what I was asking and chimed in because apparently he himself is a J-body enthusiast

The 4T40E and 4T45E have very minimal structural differences and will both bolt up to a 2.4 or a 2.2 eco without issue.
The major difference is that the 4T45E is designed to take more torque.

BUT.
The only way to use the 4T40E with a 2.2 without having the dealer adjust how the computer communicates with it, is if the donor car(wiring and computer parts) is a year 2002(only) Cavalier or Sunfire that had the two coupled from the factory. 2002 was the only year the 2 were used together. in 2003 they got the 4T45E.

bleh. anyways. if the 4T45E is stronger, and the same overall dimensions it would be dumb to not use it so I see what you guys mean when you say use the cobalt one. But it can be done... lol and holy @!#$! the 4T45E has a dipstick!
Re: Which Ecotec should I pick to swap?
Sunday, July 17, 2011 7:03 AM
ecotec one*
Re: Which Ecotec should I pick to swap?
Sunday, July 17, 2011 11:05 AM
4t40e was used in all 3rd gen 4 spd autos. the 2.4 twin cam and 2.2 eco have different bell housings i believe, which is why you need the eco 4t40e. i can't remember if anyone had issues putting the 4t45e in a cav, i don't think so...someone did it..can't remember who. but i think just for ease of installation and whatnot, they suggested using the 4t45 gearing in the 4t40e case, and the performance clutch pack for the 4t40e is only like 500 bucks, and then it'll be as strong as you would ever need.
Re: Which Ecotec should I pick to swap?
Sunday, July 17, 2011 11:43 AM
i think the 45E will work because the 3400 guys are using the 45E from a grand am with there swap the only issue they have is using a 45 E and using the PCM from a 65E which causes issues you wont have that problem

the 45E was put in the N body its a little stronger not for power wise nessessarly its more for weight of vehical
J bodys had a 40E
N bodys had a 45E
both had the same 4 cyclinder engine and same power just ones heavier
W bodys had a 65E
some W and all C bodys had 65HD



JBO since July 30, 2001
Re: Which Ecotec should I pick to swap?
Tuesday, July 19, 2011 4:46 AM
lol and holy @!#$! the 4T45E has a dipstick!


that makes it worth it right there.

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Re: Which Ecotec should I pick to swap?
Sunday, December 18, 2011 2:30 PM
I have a 1997 z24 iam looking to swap ecotec into, but i think i might have read something bout not being 2000 up makes it harder? or? im not sure

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