Single Nozzle Wet kit on SC - Nitrous Oxide Forum

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Single Nozzle Wet kit on SC
Sunday, October 12, 2008 8:57 AM
I am just curious as to the best placement of a single wet nozzle for use on an SC.
I particularly have a 2.4l LD9 with the GMPP MP45.

I know people have done the direct ports before, and i am sure this is the best method for injection purposes. but seeing as how it is shooting almost directly into the head, it is well beyond the sensors and SC rotors... so the cooling effects of the N2O are not fully utilized. (rotor pack still heat soaks, and IAT sensor still sees air as hot. so engine still adjusts for high IAT's)

I would much rather spray before the rotor pack to take advantage of the cooling propertys of the N2O. This way the rotors get cooled off, eliminating or slowing down heat soak. and the IAT sensor has a chance to detect the lower temps and adjust fuel to compensate for the lower temps.

I know many kits say to install single jets in the intake several inches upstream of the TB... but i would prefer to get my nozzle as close to the rotor pack as possible. So i was thinking about installing it between the TB and the rotor pack, in the actual SC housing. Most of the time the reason for keeping it back from the TB is so that the liquids dont condense and collect on the TB plate and shaft, and too allow time to mix with the air before hitting the TB.

Well with the spinning rotors to churn up the air and charge, i dont think this would be much of an issue with the SC.

Please give me your thoughts.




Re: Single Nozzle Wet kit on SC
Sunday, October 12, 2008 11:22 AM
Alchy tapped in tb spacer, single wet setup about 5-6" from tb.



Re: Single Nozzle Wet kit on SC
Sunday, October 12, 2008 12:21 PM
and why cant you put the wet nozzle right there with the alchy?



Re: Single Nozzle Wet kit on SC
Sunday, October 12, 2008 3:42 PM
DIRECT PORT WITH THE BLOWER

Chris




'02 Z-24 Supercharged
13.7 @102.45 MPH Third Place, 2007 GMSC Bash SOLD AS OF 01MAR08

Re: Single Nozzle Wet kit on SC
Sunday, October 12, 2008 6:57 PM
hey chris,

thanks for the input, but care to give a lil info as to why?

as i mentioned, i would think that you sacrifice the benefits of the cooling effect shooting it in so late.

but perhaps the advantages of direct port somehow outweigh the advantages of cooling.

I am not a huge fan of nitrous, but i do like its ability to super-cool while adding power. Just wanted to do a real small shot, like a 35 or so...

I dont want to drop a ton of cash on N2O. I just found a good deal on a single port setup, and thought it would be worth throwing on. direct ports typically are alot more obvious, and cost a good bit more.

I just thought spraying directly into the SC behind the TB would give the best results for a small shot single port setup. I know most guys put their alchy injection nozzel there, so thought nos would be good there too. My intake bends down at a 90* angle just outside the TB, so lots of room for fuel to condense and run down and collect in the pipes which could be dangerous. I would prefer shoot it into the SC where the rotors would be sure to keep it mixed in and moving.

but if there is a good reason why NOT to do this i would like to hear it. (and why)




Re: Single Nozzle Wet kit on SC
Sunday, October 12, 2008 7:30 PM
I believe the reason to spray after the blower is that the nitrous can chemically @!#$ with the blower. Again, im not sure, but i am watching this thread cuz im thinking about spraying with a M62.



Re: Single Nozzle Wet kit on SC
Sunday, October 12, 2008 7:57 PM
I can see that possibly being an issue on some of the coated rotors, but i dont think the MP45 or the MP62 use coated rotors.
If they can take meth injection, i dont think N2O would hurt them too much. but i am just guessing here.

I would like some real answers on this as well.



Re: Single Nozzle Wet kit on SC
Monday, October 13, 2008 4:54 AM
you already have water injection, yes?

spraying it before the charger, from what i read, can cause problems, as its not going to compress. now i know, " i have water injection!" fuel is a little different....
I would try to get a hold of Protomec. If anyone knows the answer, its him.

A 35 shot, is fine to run dry.

Chris




'02 Z-24 Supercharged
13.7 @102.45 MPH Third Place, 2007 GMSC Bash SOLD AS OF 01MAR08

Re: Single Nozzle Wet kit on SC
Monday, October 13, 2008 6:32 AM
The guy i might buy this kit off of said the same thing.. that a 35 or 50 even can be run dry. but the way he made it sound was that you didnt even need to add any fueling to run those shots. and just the idea of shooting in any extra oxygen, without proper fuel seems like a bad idea.

I think i would rather be safe and go wet, even on a tiny shot. unless of course it was only the fuel that causes issues with spraying in the charger... then i might consider dry, but with some sort of controller for fueling. I dont plan to run nos all the time, so i dont want to build it into my tune permanently (as one guy told me to do).

i would much prefer the ability to flip a switch and have the extra power and cooling when i need it, and not worry about it any other time. (which is what wet gives ya)

chris,

Normally i would heed your every word, but in this case i have to argue. I cant see how it would have anything to do with compression of the fuel. Think about carb blowers... all fuel and nitrous is added up top and fed and compressed (way more than anything we run) and they have no problems with the compression of the nitrous or fuel. I would have to say if anything prevented us from running nitrous or fuel into a blower, it would be something with the design of the blower, not an issue of physics. like coated rotors deteriorating from the solvents in the fuel. or bearings getting washed of lube and failing. There could be many reason why not to shoot wet into a blower, but i dont think compression is one of them.



Re: Single Nozzle Wet kit on SC
Monday, October 13, 2008 11:21 AM
Since you are twin charging, isn't NOS a tad overkill




Jason
99 Z24 Supercharged
157hp/171tq - NA
190hp/170tq @ 6psi

LD9 for Life
Re: Single Nozzle Wet kit on SC
Monday, October 13, 2008 5:03 PM
Carb blowers are NOT TWIN SCREW. there twin Lobe.... T\S 's have alot tighter tolerances...
the Mp45s don't have Teflon coating, so your safe there,.... bearings could get wet yes... but i read it puts a high load on the bearings and can cause early failure.....

If your only going to run a 30-50 shot, with tuning, (11.1-11.6:1 AFR) a 30-50 shot should be fine.

IDN, talk to Mangoson.... see what they say.

Chris




'02 Z-24 Supercharged
13.7 @102.45 MPH Third Place, 2007 GMSC Bash SOLD AS OF 01MAR08


Re: Single Nozzle Wet kit on SC
Tuesday, October 14, 2008 5:04 PM
there is too much to discuss here on this topic.. and I hate typing.

M45 2.4 kit = ok to spray through blower, not perfect but will be ok.

M62 eco kit = can't spray through blower.

I don't know where the twin screw mention came from as none of this is about a twin screw blower. Carb blower can be either type, also.

liquid, especially cold liquid, is bad and will erode the rotors causing loss of efficiency. But nitrous (which counts as liquid) is not used very much and therefore won't do any signicant damage.

Eco can't do it because the intercooler will condense out the fuel and cause it to run lean.


Heat soak and rotors means nothing. the rotors get hot air entering does not carry away that much of that heat. Spraying nitrous will still cool the charge, which is most important no matter where its put. But before the blower uses alot of the cooling potential cooling the rotors which really doesn't help. Cool air is important all around both before and after the blower, rotor temp isn't.



sig not found
Re: Single Nozzle Wet kit on SC
Tuesday, October 14, 2008 5:12 PM
todd,

What about temperature change before and after the IAT sensor? If the sensor doesnt realize the air is 30 degrees colder (direct port in the manifold) wouldnt this also cause a lean condition? colder, denser air with more O2. but engine still thinks it is warmer than it is entering the cylinder?

(where exactly does the IAT sensor read on a MP45?)



Re: Single Nozzle Wet kit on SC
Tuesday, October 14, 2008 5:20 PM
Tod, from what i read, and how GM explained it to me, Eaton Superchargers are " Helical cut Twin screw positive displacement superchargers, each rotor has a 60* twist." Ergo my comparison. By no means did i mean, what everyone else say "twin screw" IE Whipple\TVS\Kenny bell.

If I'm wrong, in any way, please explain, i love to lean something new.

Ken, That's the person to talk to. He has some "incite" on this blower.

Chris








'02 Z-24 Supercharged
13.7 @102.45 MPH Third Place, 2007 GMSC Bash SOLD AS OF 01MAR08

Re: Single Nozzle Wet kit on SC
Thursday, October 16, 2008 6:59 AM
Yes spraying wet pre-blower can cause failure of the bearings. I had a strange bearing noise I'd notice every once in a while, sprayed the other day and it came back lol.



Re: Single Nozzle Wet kit on SC
Thursday, October 16, 2008 8:03 PM
ken soggs wrote:

todd,

What about temperature change before and after the IAT sensor? If the sensor doesnt realize the air is 30 degrees colder (direct port in the manifold) wouldnt this also cause a lean condition? colder, denser air with more O2. but engine still thinks it is warmer than it is entering the cylinder?

(where exactly does the IAT sensor read on a MP45?)


You said "Wet kit", did you not?
This means you are injecting the extra fuel, therefore any changes in fueling due to inaccurate density calculations will be "tuned"out by the fuel jets you install.

Taetsch Z-24 wrote:

Tod, from what i read, and how GM explained it to me, Eaton Superchargers are " Helical cut Twin screw positive displacement superchargers, each rotor has a 60* twist." Ergo my comparison. By no means did i mean, what everyone else say "twin screw" IE Whipple\TVS\Kenny bell.

If I'm wrong, in any way, please explain, i love to lean something new.

Ken, That's the person to talk to. He has some "incite" on this blower.

Chris


Lysholm design SCs are the only ones legitimately described as screws (as in screw compressor). At that, there is no "twin" in that system at all. From a design POV screw applies to this blower. From a function POV screw also applies. Finally one of the 2 rotors looks very much like a big wood screw

The roots design uses 2 rotors with at least 2 lobes and more often 3 and even 4. These lobes, when twisted, are not twins by definition since they are mirror images of each other. While the twisted lobes are twisted somewhat like screw threads, the rotors do not really look like a screw. From a design POV screw does not apply to this blower. From a function POV screw applies twice.
So maybe in some way, twin screw could be accurate.

But in my work experience, no one calls a roots type blower a screw anything, ever.


sig not found
Re: Single Nozzle Wet kit on SC
Thursday, October 16, 2008 8:10 PM
Thank you.

Chris


'02 Z-24 Supercharged
13.7 @102.45 MPH Third Place, 2007 GMSC Bash SOLD AS OF 01MAR08

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