Nitrous Time - Nitrous Oxide Forum

Forum Post / Reply
You must log in before you can post or reply to messages.
Nitrous Time
Sunday, February 06, 2011 6:45 PM
I'm currently running an 04 Eco with the GMPP S/C kit with stock pulley with a ZZP along with full exhaust including a pacesetter. I've got 101,000 miles on my motor and I run Mobil 1 synthetic every 3,000. I'm ordering the walbro 255 soon along with a nitrous kit. I'm thinking between a 35-50 shot and no more for track use only. I'm thinking of a wet dynotune kit with purge and bottle warmer. My question is should I have my car tuned after the install to ensure a proper air/fuel ratio or will I be safe to run a small shot like that? I won't be spraying until I shift into third also to ensure no damage to my engine.

Any recommendations?

Thanks in advance.

Re: Nitrous Time
Sunday, February 06, 2011 7:17 PM
when your'e planning on spraying it would be best (for safety and for power) to tune the car to handle it. however it is not required and as long as your'e spraying a wet shot, with that extra fuel pump you should have no problems or worries about running lean or detonation or anything.

you could even bump it up to a 75 shot if you really wanted, though at that point you may want to start thinking about retarding your timing, also i don't know what's done to your engine but with already having boost a 75 shot may put you up over the limits of what your engine will handle.

just remember you want higher octane fuel, and if your'e not already running colder plugs for your charger you'll want to with the nitrous.

also you could, and probly should be spraying before 3rd. unless your'e worried about traction. but if your'e not hooking till third gear nitrous isn't your answer as it is lolz.


Edited 1 time(s). Last edited Sunday, February 06, 2011 7:20 PM


Re: Nitrous Time
Sunday, February 06, 2011 7:27 PM
well my motor(internally) is completely stock. I did upgrade the plugs with the S/C kit. NGK 6IX-11's. I'm running 93 octane currently. Not sure about how to retard the timing. I assume that has to do with the cam gears? My goal is to be in the mid 13's. I need to run a drag radial setup also. I gain good traction as soon as I hit second gear also. This car is also my daily driver and I have poor credit. lol
Re: Nitrous Time
Sunday, February 06, 2011 7:37 PM
have you dynoe'd? any idea what kind of power the car is making currently?

http://www.jegs.com/i/MSD-Ignition/121/8676/10002/-1?parentProductId=747846

you may want to research it yourself as there is no set in stone number but everything i've ever read is that a basic rule of thumb is per 25 hp with nitrous timing should be retarted 1degree. now for a 25 or 50 shot you really wouldn't even need to do that. coming up on a 75 shot, if it were me i'd be retarding the timing. i've heard too many horror stories about guys not doing anything with the timing and destroying a perfectly good engine.

the reason i ask about what type of power levels your'e making is the internals of your engine do have a limit. if your'e boosted i'll go ahead and assume your'e somewhere around 200whp. well another 50 hp and your rods are really going to start feeling the stress of all that extra power they were never meant to handle. if it were me i'd be looking into tearing that engine apart and replacing internals coming up to that 250-300whp mark.



Re: Nitrous Time
Sunday, February 06, 2011 7:49 PM
This has "bad idea" written all over it. You can gain another 35-50whp by just improving your S/C system and it will be a safer 35-50whp. It doesnt matter what gear you spray in, the fact is that nitrous is a sudden increase in power and stresses your engine more than boost. And with the 50 shot that you want to run with the blower you will be right at the power level that GM blew their test eco at with just nitrous. It is your daily, S/C + Nitrous is not a smart move.

Driven train mods, proper wheels/tires, and practice will get you into mid 13s with the proper S/C system. A good H/E system, 2.9" pulley, larger fuel injectors, blower cams(with proper valvesprings), and a good tune via HPTuners will have the same results as a 35-50 shot, but with less stress on your engine.




its an old concept. time for something new to take the reigns. - Z yaaaa

Re: Nitrous Time
Sunday, February 06, 2011 8:01 PM
Tinkles wrote:

This has "bad idea" written all over it. You can gain another 35-50whp by just improving your S/C system and it will be a safer 35-50whp. It doesnt matter what gear you spray in, 1.)the fact is that nitrous is a sudden increase in power and stresses your engine more than boost. And with the 50 shot that you want to run with the blower you will be right at the power level that 2.)GM blew their test eco at with just nitrous. 3.) It is your daily, S/C + Nitrous is not a smart move.

4.)Driven train mods, proper wheels/tires, and practice will get you into mid 13s with the proper S/C system. A good H/E system, 2.9" pulley, larger fuel injectors, blower cams(with proper valvesprings), and a good tune via HPTuners will have the same results as a 35-50 shot, but with less stress on your engine.


1.) boost on a stock engine is more power than the engine was meant to handle to begin with. what's the difference? that's like saying no one should ever run nitrous because it's a sudden increase in power. so what? people have been running nitrous safely and effectively (even combined with boost) for years and years and years. which is the big reason i told him IF he's going to run nitrous he should look into upgrading engine internals.

2.) gm was spraying the test eco dry. point moot.

3.) that's just a silly statement and you know it. boosting a daily driver that wasn't boosted stock isn't a smart move either. so what? it's what makes people enthusiast's. in his own words, "nitrous for track use only". he's not gonna spray on the street so what does the fact it's his daily driver have to do with anything? as long as he takes the proper precautions with the nitrous setup there's nothing wrong with spraying a boosted engine.

4.) i won't argue that at all.

finally, i'm not going to argue that there's lots and lots of other things he could do to get his car running in the range he wants to run in. but i don't understand y people are so eager to bash boost and nitrous when used in conjunction. turning up the boost levels way higher is going to put just as much stress on a stock engine as nitrous would. as i said, he's going to need to crack internals if he wants much more power out of the car one way or the other. be it lots more boost or lots more boost+nitrous.



Re: Nitrous Time
Sunday, February 06, 2011 8:17 PM
racetronix> 255 for one.

and spraying and blown without hpt, has bad news all over it

and the stress and spray he is referring to is on a 101,000 mile motor. i wouldnt do it either.



Re: Nitrous Time
Sunday, February 06, 2011 8:47 PM
I thought you were more educated in nitrous than this, pull your head out of your ass and listen.

blucavvy wrote:


1.) boost on a stock engine is more power than the engine was meant to handle to begin with. what's the difference? that's like saying no one should ever run nitrous because it's a sudden increase in power. so what? people have been running nitrous safely and effectively (even combined with boost) for years and years and years. which is the big reason i told him IF he's going to run nitrous he should look into upgrading engine internals.


With boost the increase in power is gradual, kinda like a friend pushing you hard in the arm. Nitrous on the other hand is like the same friend punching you in the arm. The punch hurts more and just like how the punch hurts more, Nitrous and boost stress the engine the same way. It is generally either on or off, unlike boost. Just look at the dyno graphs for each.

Im not saying that nitrous cannot be run safely. In the proper situations, it is perfectly fine, but the OP's situation is not one of them. Hell, i'll be running ~100 shot or more on my built supercharged engine. Yes, forged rods/pistons will make it much safer, but since the OP didnt mention that i consider it.

blucavvy wrote:


2.) gm was spraying the test eco dry. point moot.


Wet or dry doesnt matter. The sudden stress of the sudden power increase is what does the damage, assuming it is tuned correctly and since it was a rod/wrist pin the went i wouldnt say it was the tune.

blucavvy wrote:


3.) that's just a silly statement and you know it. boosting a daily driver that wasn't boosted stock isn't a smart move either. so what? it's what makes people enthusiast's. in his own words, "nitrous for track use only". he's not gonna spray on the street so what does the fact it's his daily driver have to do with anything? as long as he takes the proper precautions with the nitrous setup there's nothing wrong with spraying a boosted engine.


The daily driver fact comes in when the engine fails and he cannot get to work. There isnt a magic force field around the track that negates any damage done while there. If your car brakes at the track, guess what, yep it is still broke when you get home. The OP never mentioned about taking the proper precautions, so i went off what he said. Never assume that someone else knows more than they do. Look at where it got me in this thread...

Hell back to my own plans, im only going to be using the nitrous on the odd track days and dyno visits and im still going to make sure it'll be able to handle it on a daily basis.

blucavvy wrote:


4.) i won't argue that at all.

finally, i'm not going to argue that there's lots and lots of other things he could do to get his car running in the range he wants to run in. but i don't understand y people are so eager to bash boost and nitrous when used in conjunction. turning up the boost levels way higher is going to put just as much stress on a stock engine as nitrous would. as i said, he's going to need to crack internals if he wants much more power out of the car one way or the other. be it lots more boost or lots more boost+nitrous.


As you can see by now that i am not/was not bashing the nitrous and boost combo in general. But for the OP's current situation it is a very very very bad idea and there are safer ways to get the same power. Go back to my answer to #1. Yes there are progressive nitrous controllers that will gradually increase the shot to alleviate some of the stress, but how many nitrous beginners have even heard of them let alone run them? Shock stress(punch) will always break @!#$ faster then constant pressure(push).




its an old concept. time for something new to take the reigns. - Z yaaaa

Re: Nitrous Time
Sunday, February 06, 2011 8:49 PM
BuiltNBoosted wrote:

racetronix> 255 for one.

and spraying and blown without hpt, has bad news all over it

and the stress and spray he is referring to is on a 101,000 mile motor. i wouldnt do it either.


I wouldnt do it on a 0 mile motor, especially if it was my DD.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edited Sunday, February 06, 2011 9:36 PM



its an old concept. time for something new to take the reigns. - Z yaaaa

Re: Nitrous Time
Sunday, February 06, 2011 9:30 PM
The results on this thread so far is awesome. What's so good about this racetronix pump and where do I get it?

Also, I've thought about upgrading the pulley but it's also expensive especially when HP tuners comes into play...
Re: Nitrous Time
Sunday, February 06, 2011 9:40 PM
It is cheaper than missing work and having to replace the engine in your DD. Dont just look at the initial costs. I know John Higgins(Screaming for Mercy!!) is in FL and is a damn good tuner.

All the info for the Racetronix pump is in the Performance and/or Boost forums. They dont specifically make one for J-bodies, but the ones they have for W-bodies and F-bodies are what we use.




its an old concept. time for something new to take the reigns. - Z yaaaa


Re: Nitrous Time
Sunday, February 06, 2011 10:09 PM
Tinkles wrote:

It is cheaper than missing work and having to replace the engine in your DD. Dont just look at the initial costs. I know John Higgins(Screaming for Mercy!!) is in FL and is a damn good tuner.

All the info for the Racetronix pump is in the Performance and/or Boost forums. They dont specifically make one for J-bodies, but the ones they have for W-bodies and F-bodies are what we use.


w body is a DIRECT drop in, has the line for the venturi hose... the walboro 255 does not have that line. some drill and tap for it. id rather get one with it already. plus you can order it with the harness which is TOTALLY worth it.



Re: Nitrous Time
Monday, February 07, 2011 1:20 AM
I was looking into a little shot on my car when it was supercharged but $100 for a 10lb bottle refill can add up in a hurry and if you do other supporting mods you can have the same amount of power all the time and not just "at the track" when you are spraying. Not saying nitrous is bad I would just rather have the power all the time and not just when I was spraying, but thats just my opinion, to each their own though.



Re: Nitrous Time
Monday, February 07, 2011 5:07 AM
Tinkles wrote:

IAs you can see by now that i am not/was not bashing the nitrous and boost combo in general. But for the OP's current situation it is a very very very bad idea and there are safer ways to get the same power. Go back to my answer to #1. Yes there are progressive nitrous controllers that will gradually increase the shot to alleviate some of the stress, but how many nitrous beginners have even heard of them let alone run them? Shock stress(punch) will always break @!#$ faster then constant pressure(push).


all i can really say to all that is obviously you didn't listen to anything i told the kid. i said several times over if he were looking for more power his engine would have to be built. even if it's through the charger. i never assumed he knew what he was doing, i told him several times he should crack internals. if he doesn't follow my advice it's not my problem. it still doesn't make nitrous the enemy.

and don't worry buddy, i can hold my own just fine in a nitrous disussion.


and for the final time. i'm not saying in the least that he couldn't achieve the same thing with just the blower and some drivetrain mods.

simply trying to help him understand what precautions should be taken if he so chooses to take the nitrous path.


Edited 1 time(s). Last edited Monday, February 07, 2011 5:10 AM


Re: Nitrous Time
Monday, February 07, 2011 6:53 AM
My intentions on this thread were not to start a heated debate but so be it. I think with my internal motor being bone stock, I will lay off the nitrous for now and look into upgrading the charger.

So I did some research...Is this the pump which includes everything I need for a direct bolt on swap replacement?
http://www.racetronix.biz/itemdesc.asp?ic=FPA-007&eq=&Tp=

Thanks
Re: Nitrous Time
Monday, February 07, 2011 7:34 AM
Matthew Jollymore wrote:

I was looking into a little shot on my car when it was supercharged but $100 for a 10lb bottle refill can add up in a hurry and if you do other supporting mods you can have the same amount of power all the time and not just "at the track" when you are spraying. Not saying nitrous is bad I would just rather have the power all the time and not just when I was spraying, but thats just my opinion, to each their own though.


Where the fukc are you getting ripped off at it's between $3.25 and $4.00 a pound everywhere I've seen. Damn that is high.

OP, for what your looking to do it is pointless to add a nitrous kit. Use your charger there are many upgrades that will bring you to the numbers you want without needing to add another variable to a blown motor (under YOUR scenario). Can it be done, yes but not with what it seems like you would be interested in doing. My advice from a long time N20 user, stick with the charger and other mods do not add N20.




Re: Nitrous Time
Monday, February 07, 2011 11:20 AM
Copter wrote:

Matthew Jollymore wrote:

I was looking into a little shot on my car when it was supercharged but $100 for a 10lb bottle refill can add up in a hurry and if you do other supporting mods you can have the same amount of power all the time and not just "at the track" when you are spraying. Not saying nitrous is bad I would just rather have the power all the time and not just when I was spraying, but thats just my opinion, to each their own though.


Where the fukc are you getting ripped off at it's between $3.25 and $4.00 a pound everywhere I've seen. Damn that is high.

OP, for what your looking to do it is pointless to add a nitrous kit. Use your charger there are many upgrades that will bring you to the numbers you want without needing to add another variable to a blown motor (under YOUR scenario). Can it be done, yes but not with what it seems like you would be interested in doing. My advice from a long time N20 user, stick with the charger and other mods do not add N20.


Thats how much it runs here in Canada where I am at. I think there may me a new place that offers it for $9/ lb which would be still over $100 with tax. Get a few passes and it would pretty much pay for some other supporting mods. Buddy here gets 8 passes on his 10lb bottle so that would add up if you race a lot.



Re: Nitrous Time
Monday, February 07, 2011 1:36 PM
Yea at that price I would think twice about boost as well, damn. I'm going to get a really long hose send it to you and charge $7.00 no tax.




Re: Nitrous Time
Monday, February 07, 2011 2:25 PM
I would appreciate that haha Its expensive enough that I didn't think it would be worth it in the long run. So boost and supporting mods got me where I wanted to and it was there all the time and didn't have to pay for fun everytime I went to the track (minus fuel).



Re: Nitrous Time
Monday, February 07, 2011 2:35 PM
I didn't think you could run a wet shot through the blower anyway due to fuel eating the teflon from the rotors?



Re: Nitrous Time
Tuesday, February 08, 2011 7:27 AM
yellow cavy (s/c L61) wrote:

I didn't think you could run a wet shot through the blower anyway due to fuel eating the teflon from the rotors?


Correct you can't run fuel pre charger. But that isn't an issue as there are many ways to run N20. He could do dry before the blower, wet tapped in a spacer after the blower or prime time would be direct. As long as fuel doesn't go in first you don't need to worry about the Teflon coating. I was thinking about throwing a charger on my car with direct port for some time, there are tons of simple was to avoid this so that is definitely not an issue, good call none the less!





Re: Nitrous Time
Tuesday, February 08, 2011 7:53 AM
Never thought about a spacer between the blower and the manifold. I knew you could go DP but yea I wouldn't worry with nitrous unless you are building an engine for it. As fun as it sounds and it is cheap power but it makes up for being cheap when it kills your engine. I would go with tinkles advice I plan on going the HPT route and upgrading my injectors and moving to a bigger heat exchanger.



Re: Nitrous Time
Wednesday, February 09, 2011 2:13 PM
yellow cavy (s/c L61) wrote:

Never thought about a spacer between the blower and the manifold. I knew you could go DP but yea I wouldn't worry with nitrous unless you are building an engine for it. As fun as it sounds and it is cheap power but it makes up for being cheap when it kills your engine. I would go with tinkles advice I plan on going the HPT route and upgrading my injectors and moving to a bigger heat exchanger.


god damnit. when are people going to stop listening to all the rumor's about how horrible nitrous is for an engine. there's nothing wrong with using nitrous when you have your engine set up for it properly. it's not like every time someone hooks nitrous up to their car it's guaranteed that their engine is going to blow.



Re: Nitrous Time
Wednesday, February 09, 2011 8:39 PM
I know nitrous can be safe when you are prepped for it. I have a full msd set up and colder plugs plus the blower. If I wanted I could pull timing with msd and spray away. I just don't think my engine would last very long.



Re: Nitrous Time
Thursday, February 10, 2011 7:57 AM
It is not common to blow a motor with spray when people are running the proper shot for the engine and when they are properly prepped for it. Most common is:

- people spraying too much i.e. 100+ shot on a stock eco
- spraying to much N20 with not enough fuel
- driver error
- stupidity and prepping motor

People over boosting a motor also commonly blows a motor, not being properly tuned on a boosted motor can also blow a motor, stupidity can also blow a boosted motor. Nitrous is perfectly safe if you know what your doing and you are spraying a safe shot. The best part is your car is driving N/A 90% of the time with no strain.

Nitrous just has the association with being dangerous and it will never loose that relation. I've gone through hundreds of pounds of N20 with no problem and I know many cars that have sprayed for years and have been perfectly fine including one that was getting built, internally the motor was flawless.





Forum Post / Reply
You must log in before you can post or reply to messages.

 

Start New Topic Advanced Search