Fst Cavy wrote:Doesnt mean taht they didnt unplug it........trust me...dealership mechanics arent dumb as you portray them to be.....Not to start a fight here, but, the install of the gm charger is simple, like some1 up there said, like changing an intake manifold. Im pretty sure anyone with half a brain let alone an ASE certified tech would know if something was idling high like that, they would check all vac. lines, think a little before you blame someone for your/your friends screw up. I would also like to know how the hell you pull wires out of a connector? Really, there arent any wiring connectors on the 2.4 that are that hard to get at or get apart for that matter. But anyway, I would look at those things they mentioned ^ there.
Yes, dealership mechanics are generally pretty dumb in my experience with them calling for advice on the phone.
Worse, most never want to spent more than a minute or 2 deciding to change parts. The system is setup so that they make the bulk of their money replacing parts, not diagnosing them. ---- = bad system for most customers.
I have serious doubts about the PCM failing.
sig not found
Seriously, I just re installed my charger last night, and it was harder to install the ho mani than the charger. Took me about an hour. Granted, I didn't have to take off an intake mani this time.
Definately check vacuum, even the one under the charger. Also check to make sure that tb isn't getting stuck open by dirt and grime. That happened to NJHK when he came to stay with me for the bristol dyno weekend. He was idling at 3K and all it was, was a lil dirt keeping the tb butterfly open.
Keep us updated.
Scott
When I boost, you boost, we boost
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You have been banned from NEJBODY.
You've displayed wayyy too many acts of pushing people to their limits.
It's never cool to tear people down for what they want to do.
NEJBODY is a team. We're not the same as JBO where everyone bashes on eachother.
I'm surprised you show up to our meets after half of the things you say on here.
The dealer has had my car for about 8 business days now. They got the new computer in friday afternoon and worked on it. I have no information to see if it got any better. Ill find out monday afternoon. Thanks for the replies.
[quote=protomec
Yes, dealership mechanics are generally pretty dumb in my experience with them calling for advice on the phone.
Worse, most never want to spent more than a minute or 2 deciding to change parts. The system is setup so that they make the bulk of their money replacing parts, not diagnosing them. ---- = bad system for most customers.
I have serious doubts about the PCM failing.
You sir, are a idiot. You obviously have NO IDEA how a dealership works. We dont make our money on replacing parts. We make money completing a full diagnosis and then replacing what needs to be replaced or fixing what needs to be fixed.
As for us being "pretty dumb", you just made yourself look even more stupid than you have in the past, which is pretty hard to do, but you somehow managed to pull it off. You do realize that GM sends ALL THEIR TECHS for training on not only the new cars/motors/trannies/electronics that come out each year, but also for other general classes so we can properly diagnose and repair anything that comes through the door.
Your ignorance is really shining through right here, you are the kind of person that would never be happy with anything a dealer did. I am definately thankful that you do stay away from dealers, because I for one would not want to deal with you.
More .org drama from Promotec. Where is Lenko to back him up this time and blame it on me?
-Chris-
-Sweetness-
-Turbocharged-
Slowly but surely may some day win this race...
guys, stfu, lets not jack this thread.
the good news is, i got a call from the dealership this morning, the comp has been changed, and the car seems to be running fine. the comp needs to be programmed in a few areas apparently, and if all is well, ill have my car out this afternoon or early tomorrow morning.
thanks for all the good replies, you definitely helped solve the situation, unfortunately had we found out the comp was the bad part earlier on, my bill wouldnt be as high.
the only confusing part for me is, why all of a sudden, does the comp go bad, after 4 years of the car running fine. I do not want to put the blame on anyone here, but it seems pretty evident to me that something wrong happend when they flashed the comp for the gm s/c, and they changed the comp because of it.
if the new pcm was installed and they have it running , then unless they didnt do the proper program with the s/c coding that would be the only other programing the pcm would need
but why they wouldnt go straight from the new pcm to the s/c program , ive got no idea , other than A they got no clue what is going on , B they just want to charge you more money
and honestly , when i worked at the dealer , you wouldnt have been charged 12 hours , from the way i see it , i wouldnt have charged more than 5 , and that would have included pulling the s/c , just to double check things
just hope they program the pcm with the s/c reflash , and i hope it runs good after you get it back
glad there is somewhat on a postive update (you havent driven it yet).
keep us updated, and welcome to the club
(i dont think 95% of the people on here know todd(protomec). or who he knows, what he knows and seen the work he has done)
going to pick it up now, apparently they didnt change the pcm at all, they just re-wired some things,
im interested to see why my bill is 1900$ (-300 for the new map sensor, and a few hours for oil change and wire connector fixes) there is about 1200+ in labour for just finding the solution.
update in about 30 minutes...
gtpsunfire wrote:
You sir, are a idiot. You obviously have NO IDEA how a dealership works. We dont make our money on replacing parts. We make money completing a full diagnosis and then replacing what needs to be replaced or fixing what needs to be fixed.
As for us being "pretty dumb", you just made yourself look even more stupid than you have in the past, which is pretty hard to do, but you somehow managed to pull it off. You do realize that GM sends ALL THEIR TECHS for training on not only the new cars/motors/trannies/electronics that come out each year, but also for other general classes so we can properly diagnose and repair anything that comes through the door.
Your ignorance is really shining through right here, you are the kind of person that would never be happy with anything a dealer did. I am definately thankful that you do stay away from dealers, because I for one would not want to deal with you.
I was a GM Tech at a Chevy/Pontiac dealership for 3 years, and I can attest to Protomec's claims. As a Tech, on numerous occasions I was forced by the powers at be to either replace a part, or send it out the door. 99% of the GM shops are Flat rate shops, and the only way you make money is by having a high turn over rate. 2+2= you do what you have to, to get the car out the door as fast as you can. Doesnt take a ton of brain power for that.
I have also been taken numerous GM Distance Learning Classes....... you sit at a table, and watch satellite video feeds, and take some tests in a work book. I was also the key body that had to take all the new classes so that we had a 'trained Tech' so we could receive the new vehicles. Its not as 'great' as you make it out to be.
Now dont get me wrong, there are a few smart tech's out there........ out of the 8 techs at my former place of employment, I'd only trust 2 or 3 to do any work on any of my or my family's vehicles...... even for warranty work.
....... and you know as well as I do, alot of Techs are brainless wrench turners....... pull car in, put cust. complaint into computer, look to see if anyone else has done the leg work of diagnosing the problem, if they have, do what they did to fix it...... if not, bitch and complain about having to diagnose some stupid customer problem, prolly not fix anything, or just tighten a bolt or two to say you did something, run it out. Move onto the next vehicle.
SPD RCR Z -
'02 Z24 420whp
SLO GOAT -
'04 GTO 305whp
W41 BOI -
'78 Buick Opel Isuzu W41 Swap
SpeedRacerZ wrote:gtpsunfire wrote:
You sir, are a idiot. You obviously have NO IDEA how a dealership works. We dont make our money on replacing parts. We make money completing a full diagnosis and then replacing what needs to be replaced or fixing what needs to be fixed.
As for us being "pretty dumb", you just made yourself look even more stupid than you have in the past, which is pretty hard to do, but you somehow managed to pull it off. You do realize that GM sends ALL THEIR TECHS for training on not only the new cars/motors/trannies/electronics that come out each year, but also for other general classes so we can properly diagnose and repair anything that comes through the door.
Your ignorance is really shining through right here, you are the kind of person that would never be happy with anything a dealer did. I am definately thankful that you do stay away from dealers, because I for one would not want to deal with you.
I was a GM Tech at a Chevy/Pontiac dealership for 3 years, and I can attest to Protomec's claims. As a Tech, on numerous occasions I was forced by the powers at be to either replace a part, or send it out the door. 99% of the GM shops are Flat rate shops, and the only way you make money is by having a high turn over rate. 2+2= you do what you have to, to get the car out the door as fast as you can. Doesnt take a ton of brain power for that.
I have also been taken numerous GM Distance Learning Classes....... you sit at a table, and watch satellite video feeds, and take some tests in a work book. I was also the key body that had to take all the new classes so that we had a 'trained Tech' so we could receive the new vehicles. Its not as 'great' as you make it out to be.
Now dont get me wrong, there are a few smart tech's out there........ out of the 8 techs at my former place of employment, I'd only trust 2 or 3 to do any work on any of my or my family's vehicles...... even for warranty work.
....... and you know as well as I do, alot of Techs are brainless wrench turners....... pull car in, put cust. complaint into computer, look to see if anyone else has done the leg work of diagnosing the problem, if they have, do what they did to fix it...... if not, bitch and complain about having to diagnose some stupid customer problem, prolly not fix anything, or just tighten a bolt or two to say you did something, run it out. Move onto the next vehicle.
Needless to say, I would never bring my vehicle to that dealer. The classes I spoke of are hardly long distance learning. Maybe it is done differently here in Canada, because we have actuall GM training facilities that we go to and we do not recieve the badge for that course unless we obtain atleast an 80 on the test at the end. Some courses are as long as 3-4 full days long. Yes, most GM dealers are flat rate, but it hardly works like you describe. I know that when I and most of the other techs in my shop and the other shops i have worked in get a problem car, we spend as much time as needed to find and remedy the issue. If its a warranty job, we punch on straight time so we get paid for diag, if it is CP, then unfortunately, the customer has to pay for the time we spend on it. Its just the way it works, nothing comes for free.
Anyways, you can think whatever you like, but the way Protomec put it, all techs are mindless monkeys, which is far from the truth.
several dealers ive either worked at , or were at on a regular bassis , 2/3's were mindless wrenches
give them something outside the box , and they wouldnt be able to find their ass on the toilet , if they were already sitting on it
and i used to go up to burbank for gm tech classes , but alot of the test we had to do were either CD based or a 70's style still film with cassette sound track
dealer i worked here in az didnt care about any testing
unfortunatly , there is alot of mindless people working on cars , but people that realize that either do their own , or know some place that can do it right the first time
i find it odd they said they do the pcm then didnt , they musta tried it and that didnt fix it , as far as electrical goes there is no set flat rate time for electrical work , its 1 of the very areas that is left wide open
i even got paid over 30 hours for electrical work on a suburban that kept setting knock codes , because it was under warrenty and i had to follow GM's stated procedures to find , eliminate , and zero in on the problem , and it came down to making the knock sensor wires their own harness from the blcok to the pcm , and wraping them in aluminum tape to keep out electrical interference
had tech line told me to do what i wanted to do , it woulda cost them 2/3's of that , my boss didnt care either way as long as we got paid for the fix , and he loved olh time and had no problem signing for it
Well the car runs, idles well, and sounds absolutely amazing. The S/C is definitely sweet and makes the car fun to drive. I just need to install my boost gauge now for more fun.
Only problem right now, and I will associate it with the fact that I have about 1/4 tank of regular gas, my car is stalling about 70% of the time when I come to a complete stop. I'm going to assume that it is the regular octane gas causing this, I filled up with premium, and put some octane booster in there. Hopefully after a few hours of driving all is well.
Ill need to get myself a large TB now for sure.
Here is how it is laid out on my bill..
tech comments: called techline support for vci number, reprogrammed pcm with new calibrations, engine runs rough, stalls & idles high, recalled techline to verify number, all ok, vci# 516146, check all vacuum hose routing, all ok, check pcv system, repaired 4 broken connectors on engine (the wires my buddy was smart enough to pull out), still runs rough, found cylinder #2 is misfiring, replaced spark plug #2 as per diag, called tac line case #8962051, check for vaccum leak, inspected & found lower throttle body bolt is loose, secured bolt, all ok, started engine, revs at 4000rpm, cannot drive iac with scanner, tried new pcm, still revs, compared scan tool data list to a similar vehicle, measured wiring, found wires are only holding by 1 strand, replaced all wires from pcm to iac, tested operation, all ok, engine runs at proper speed, rerouted new harness, cleared all codes, test drove car, all ok
My guess is something went wrong when extending the wires from the loom. Hence the wire problem.
Parts - 313.35$
Labour - 1311.18$
Misc - 52.45$
Oil - 2.43$
Oil Change - 29.95$
Enviro free - 1$
Total: 1707.93
Me being a dumbass = priceless.
Car running fine and supercharged = the shiat.
The octane rating shouldn't have anything to do with your car stalling, it'll burn just like regular gas unless you're honking on it and making boost which heats up the charge too much hence the reason for the higher octane rating gas. We go back to possible vacuum leaks or a MAP sensor/connection problem causing that, among other possibilities.
You shouldn't have had to extend any wires for the IAC, the only wires you really touch during the install are the IAT wires because you're totally relocating the sensor.
It's a @!#$ buzz that it cost you so much to find the problem but good to know you're back rolling again.
14.330 @ 96.37mph
i think the tps and iac you also have to pull out of the stock loom so that it will reach the tb , i had to mine
but that was all simple
since yours is a 5spd , im not sure about the stalling , my auto stalls alot , unless the a/c is on , and ive heard of auto's have issues with stalling
i know mine ran like crap for a day after the reflash , tell the pcm relearned the system , so that might have a little to do with it , but since it had a 4000 rpm idle issue , you might want to take it back , if you still have a idle problem
its possble the iac isnt working correctly still
Yeah, the stalling stopped all of a sudden. I drove about 80km on it this afternoon, filled up with premium, put that octane booster in, and now shes doing fine. And I now know why everyone says, once you have boost, you want more. I definitely want more, cuz this is f'ing sweet!
im glad its working for you now
sucks about the big HOLE in your pocket now
but im sure that sweet sound-o-s/c whine , helps cure that feeling
We can officially welcome you to the club now, Kris. Congrats!
14.330 @ 96.37mph
Viral (Kris) wrote:Here is how it is laid out on my bill..
tech comments: called techline support for vci number, reprogrammed pcm with new calibrations, engine runs rough, stalls & idles high, recalled techline to verify number, all ok, vci# 516146, check all vacuum hose routing, all ok, check pcv system, repaired 4 broken connectors on engine (the wires my buddy was smart enough to pull out), still runs rough, found cylinder #2 is misfiring, replaced spark plug #2 as per diag, called tac line case #8962051, check for vaccum leak, inspected & found lower throttle body bolt is loose, secured bolt, all ok, started engine, revs at 4000rpm, cannot drive iac with scanner, tried new pcm, still revs, compared scan tool data list to a similar vehicle, measured wiring, found wires are only holding by 1 strand, replaced all wires from pcm to iac, tested operation, all ok, engine runs at proper speed, rerouted new harness, cleared all codes, test drove car, all ok
My guess is something went wrong when extending the wires from the loom. Hence the wire problem.
Oh man! don't I totally look like the idiot now.
A whole sheet of wiring and vacuum leak repairs... no mention of a PCM replacement.
I guess that why I get paid to have the dealer techs call me instead of simply working at the dealers. If every phone on the planet suddenly quit working tomorrow, 90% of the dealers could never fix a drivability concern from that point on. Dealer techs are idiots. You can train a monkey to type, its still a monkey.
I think you had called me Kris and asked if I could help with the install. I'm sorry I was too busy repairing my new house to help. If I knew it was going to turn out this way, I would have preferred to have chosen to help. Again, sorry.
Hypothetical situation-- if a car comes into the dealer with no spark, does the tech make more money if he: A- takes the time to diagnose which exact component failed and replaces only that component. or B- does no diagnosis and replaces the coils, crank sensor, and ignition module at one time.
(Hint A= 1hr diag + .5 hr replace, B= 1hr diag + .5 + .5 + .5 replace and the car is out of the stall in under an hour.)
sig not found
Yes Todd, that was me. Ian and I were in a bind, since the J-bom BBQ was cancelled due to crappy weather. We were suppose to yank a bunch of you guys to help out at Ians afterwards to watch the Pistons game and work on the car, and have food on me (although I expected people to be full from the BBQ, meaning less food for supper, but thats besides the point). Unfortunately mother nature didnt agree and I had to smuggle her accross the border, and attempt this myself, easy install, but having a big gorilla of a friend help, didnt help my siutation and we obviously had to break every thing.
At least shes all good and running now. I went through quite a bit of gas today givin it on the highways.
protomec wrote:Viral (Kris) wrote:Here is how it is laid out on my bill..
tech comments: called techline support for vci number, reprogrammed pcm with new calibrations, engine runs rough, stalls & idles high, recalled techline to verify number, all ok, vci# 516146, check all vacuum hose routing, all ok, check pcv system, repaired 4 broken connectors on engine (the wires my buddy was smart enough to pull out), still runs rough, found cylinder #2 is misfiring, replaced spark plug #2 as per diag, called tac line case #8962051, check for vaccum leak, inspected & found lower throttle body bolt is loose, secured bolt, all ok, started engine, revs at 4000rpm, cannot drive iac with scanner, tried new pcm, still revs, compared scan tool data list to a similar vehicle, measured wiring, found wires are only holding by 1 strand, replaced all wires from pcm to iac, tested operation, all ok, engine runs at proper speed, rerouted new harness, cleared all codes, test drove car, all ok
My guess is something went wrong when extending the wires from the loom. Hence the wire problem.
Oh man! don't I totally look like the idiot now.
A whole sheet of wiring and vacuum leak repairs... no mention of a PCM replacement.
I guess that why I get paid to have the dealer techs call me instead of simply working at the dealers. If every phone on the planet suddenly quit working tomorrow, 90% of the dealers could never fix a drivability concern from that point on. Dealer techs are idiots. You can train a monkey to type, its still a monkey.
I think you had called me Kris and asked if I could help with the install. I'm sorry I was too busy repairing my new house to help. If I knew it was going to turn out this way, I would have preferred to have chosen to help. Again, sorry.
Hypothetical situation-- if a car comes into the dealer with no spark, does the tech make more money if he: A- takes the time to diagnose which exact component failed and replaces only that component. or B- does no diagnosis and replaces the coils, crank sensor, and ignition module at one time.
(Hint A= 1hr diag + .5 hr replace, B= 1hr diag + .5 + .5 + .5 replace and the car is out of the stall in under an hour.)
Ya know I highly respect your opinion, hence why the comment about dealer techs being idiots I take offense to, you might be more knowledgeable in one area or all areas but to generally say that all dealer techs are idiots is absurd.
Regardless, glad you got it fixed, sucky price to pay though.
protomec wrote:
Hypothetical situation-- if a car comes into the dealer with no spark, does the tech make more money if he: A- takes the time to diagnose which exact component failed and replaces only that component. or B- does no diagnosis and replaces the coils, crank sensor, and ignition module at one time.
(Hint A= 1hr diag + .5 hr replace, B= 1hr diag + .5 + .5 + .5 replace and the car is out of the stall in under an hour.)
I'm going to go out on a limb and go with B....... and dont the questions usually go "Tech A says diagnose and replace failed component, Tech B says save time and replace everything, and Tech C says send it out the door 'Could Not Duplicate'"?
ahhh.... Jay, your not an idiot.....
SPD RCR Z -
'02 Z24 420whp
SLO GOAT -
'04 GTO 305whp
W41 BOI -
'78 Buick Opel Isuzu W41 Swap
gtpsunfire wrote:
Needless to say, I would never bring my vehicle to that dealer. The classes I spoke of are hardly long distance learning. Maybe it is done differently here in Canada, because we have actuall GM training facilities that we go to and we do not recieve the badge for that course unless we obtain atleast an 80 on the test at the end. Some courses are as long as 3-4 full days long. Yes, most GM dealers are flat rate, but it hardly works like you describe. I know that when I and most of the other techs in my shop and the other shops i have worked in get a problem car, we spend as much time as needed to find and remedy the issue. If its a warranty job, we punch on straight time so we get paid for diag, if it is CP, then unfortunately, the customer has to pay for the time we spend on it. Its just the way it works, nothing comes for free.
Anyways, you can think whatever you like, but the way Protomec put it, all techs are mindless monkeys, which is far from the truth.
They used to send the techs to classes in Chicago....... but GM got cheap, and didnt want to pay hotel costs anymore or something..... they stopped it back in 98 I think..... the distance learning cources where the same classes, and you had to take a touch pad test, and get 80% or better....... I did 80+% of the drivability and electrical cases just because none of the other techs wanted to take the time to do them. Why? Because they dont pay.
SPD RCR Z -
'02 Z24 420whp
SLO GOAT -
'04 GTO 305whp
W41 BOI -
'78 Buick Opel Isuzu W41 Swap
