or could swap a 3400 v6 in it and then turbo it
This is gonna be good. Make sure you get a fire extinguisher. Or will that blow your $500 budget out the window?
How exactly do I reroute the oil dipstick/filler tube? It gets in the way.
Jim Mitchell wrote:Yes it's one of those ghetto japanese made turbos that go on ebay. No I don't care if people have had problems with them, they have a warranty.
I thought about doing the remote turbo set up, where it's mounted where the muffler would go, but there isn't much room to run the piping, and more chances for an oil line to get knicked by a rock and lose oil pressure and blow everything up, etc.
Being perfectly honest, Jim, I'm all for doing things on the cheap just as much as the next guy. But there's still a right way and a wrong way to do things. Buying a cheap - really cheap - eBay turbo is not the right way. Trust me on this, warranty or not, you'll regret getting one of those things because when the seals blow, sure they might honor the warranty, but the replacement unit will blow the seals too. Nobody has ever had anything good to say about them and replacing one shiny piece of ish with yet another shiny piece of ish is not a warranty. As far as the rear mount turbo goes, it's completely possible to do. I've done the math over and over, and clearance isn't that big of an issue with the proper size piping, which plays a role not only in clearance but efficiency. And in the long run I figure it'd actually save time and headaches, and maybe money, by not needing to get a manifold, reroute coolant lines, etc. And the oil lines would be at no more risk than the fuel and brake lines under the car, especially if thjey're braided lines which you should use anyway.
Well remote mount is sounding tastier by the second.
Is there any oil pressure issues at all with having such long lines?
Plus, the remote mount turbos sound *amazing*
Isn't the oil return line gravity feed though?
I couldn't figure out how to edit my last post... so I'm double posting. Sorry.
If I was to go remote mount, would you reccommend getting a header and a larger exhaust? Or would the stock system suffice for the relatively low boost levels I want to run 5-8PSI.
Well, as far as the oil goes, I'm basically modeling mine after the STS systems. It does require an electric oil pump, which I'm still working out - I found several pumps online, but I need to figure out how much pressure I need.
For the exhaust itself, no, a header isn't necessary, actually it'd be almost useless in terms of increasing flow. The fact that a turbo provides resistance negates the need for a high flow exhaust, and if you go to STS' website you'll find the same answer. The systems they produce are designed for the stock exhaust, as the larger diameter pipes are pointless, again, they're normally meant for flow, and actually could hurt efficiency by slowing down the gases - remember, the exhaust is traveling to the back of the car now rather than a few inches. Now, I already have a header sitting in my garage, and once its installed I wil likely keep it just for a cleaner look under the hood as a benefit, it's stainless like the rest of the exhaust, so it'll hold heat pretty well. Which leads me to another tip. If you do replace the exhaust, use stainless steel. Stainless steel has horrible thermal properties, and actually traps heat. For a turbo setup, especially mounted at the rear, this is a good thing as it will decrease the losses from exhaust cooling. It's not a perfect solution, but with the proper turbo, you'll never know the difference. Remember that among other factors, turbos need exhaust pressure to operate, and pressure is created by heat as well as velocity.
Man I'm longwinded.
Oh, and you can't edit your posts unless you're a premium member.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edited Wednesday, September 20, 2006 1:31 PM
If you're still unclear on the pressures, I'd ask around at a DIY gas turbine forum. They use turbochargers as jet engines, and have to adjust the oil pressure exactly as we would.
Look at eBay item 270028407293 for a pump.
Actually I'll probably just call Squires and ask them what pump they use for their kits, psi, etc. Maybe they'll sell me one separate I dunno.
If Squires = STS, they won't sell the pump seperate...many have tried that one already
fortune cookie say:
better a delay than a disaster.
You know, Josh, I like you. You're an LN2 freak just like me, and we tend to think alike. And if I don't have an answer, you probably do. But do you always have to bring me down? Seriously. Go p!ss in someone else's Cheerios.
Just kiddin'.
So if that won't work, then what do you suggest? I've looked around on the web and found some pumps, but if I knew what kind of pressure I need... I wouldn't think it'd be any higher than the engine's pressure requirements. It's only really needed for the return, right?
The pressure is supplied by the engine oil pressure.
The pump simply carries the fuel BACK to the engine and deposits it in the valve cover / oil pan.
Look at that pump in the ebay auction number I linked to: 270028407293
That ebay pump is mucho overkill...6 AMPS!!!
I'd find someone who's done this before and find out what they used
There's a guy with a remote mount on a 2nd gen V6 J hanging around an F-body forum, but I don't think I've ever seen him here.
fortune cookie say:
better a delay than a disaster.
I did a budget turbo kit. Spent years collecting parts. Things like a T25 and ECM from a Sunbird on a "strip a car for $30 day" and a homemade exhaust manifold made the final cost very low. The engine's been running for a couple of years now and is currently producing a max boost of 8 psi. Here are my thoughts.
1) Better to buy a used but not abused OEM or modified turbo than a new cheapie. Warranty or not, you still have to deal with down time and with doing the same job over and over (replacing the new part...again.). An OEM turbo removed due to a wreck or for an all important "upgrade" might be in good shape and will probably provide many miles of satisfaction.
2) Don't start at 8psi. Start lower and work up to the higher pressure. Not only does it give you a chance to find and correct problems before they become serious enough to kill an engine, but it allows you to keep your newly acquired "more boost" addiction at bay a little longer.
3) The t25 will probably not make much more than about 8 psi without producing excessive amounts of heat. A T28 (T25 exhaust and T3 compressor) might do a little better for the same price. T28s were OEM on the Grand Prix turbo and some Nissan cars (SR20DET??). I bought a used one (ball bearing type) off Ebay for $350 which is in very nice shape.
4) Theoretically, placing a remote turbo as close to the catalytic converter as possible should provide a fun highway car. Converters add bunches of heat to the exhaust when they're working (they stop working after a little time at rich mixture). Producing heat with the catalyst reaction then immediately using it in the turbo would be very efficient and could even allow slightly leaner AFR at the engine with the same power production.
Have fun.
-->Slow
Slow, I can't agree more. With the choice of turbo, I can't really speak for Mr Mitchell, whatever he chooses is up to him. For me, I have every intention of using a used torbo - I still need to get caught up on the maps but if all looks favorable, I'll be using a 16G. Josh sent me some info on reading the maps but I still haven't gotten a chance to look at them. I can't access my personal e-mail from work and my laptop fried so I need t ogo over to a friend's place and print them off. We've got a few of them in the garage. With the VR4 crowd I hang with, they upgrade to a 16G for a while, get bored, upgrade again, toss out the sidemount intercooler for a front mount, upgrade the downpipe and all that - this just leaves spare parts for me.
As far as the boost - the psi I'm aiming for is only 8-10psi, as I already said. For tuning, yes, I will start at lower pressures, just to find leaks, work out any bugs, etc. but 8 or 10psi will be my final number, it is after all a daily driver. I don't worry much about the boost addiction, I feed that with VR4s every weekend.
For the placement, I was thinking about mounting it in place of the muffler and running the intake up behind the bumper with a splash shield, but right begind the cat sounds like a really good idea as it would only add to the inherant stealth factor - nothin under the hood, nothin but a muffler out back - and that would also allow me to run the intake up in the fender or something - and yeah the heat from teh cat would be of great benefit. I'd be willing to be the exhaust is actually hotter after the cat than it is right off the header due to the catalyst light-off.
Jim Mitchell wrote:The pressure is supplied by the engine oil pressure.
The pump simply carries the fuel BACK to the engine and deposits it in the valve cover / oil pan.
Look at that pump in the ebay auction number I linked to: 270028407293
Yes and no. True, the engine oil pressure will supply the turbo, but because the turbo would be lbelow the engine, and farther away, the pump is what actually maintains the pressure to keep the oil moving. Basically the pump is there to defy gravity. Having a pump that moves say 40 or 50psi should work, but also a low current draw would be beneficial - like Josh already said, 6A is overkill.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edited Friday, September 22, 2006 10:55 AM
slowolej wrote:I did a budget turbo kit. Spent years collecting parts...An OEM turbo removed due to a wreck or for an all important "upgrade" might be in good shape and will probably provide many miles of satisfaction.
I agree, I pulled a turbo off a Mustang SVO in the junkyard for next to nothing (actually, it was nothing, but I didn't technically 'steal' it
) with ZERO shaft play (pulled another one in perfect condition off a Grand National motor just this weekend). One thing to remember though is that after sitting out there in the dry heat for so long (I'm in Phoenix) the seals dry out. But, I just rebuilt it with an $80 kit and it should be perfectly fine.
I'm not sure about mounting it by the cat though, as ground clearence would be a BIG issue with these cars (I can't fit a low-profile jack under that part of my car as it is...)
fortune cookie say:
better a delay than a disaster.
Why would you mount it by the cat? You want less heat in the exhaust gasses, so they are denser. Turbos don't run on heat, they run on moving gasses.
Jim Mitchell wrote:Why would you mount it by the cat? You want less heat in the exhaust gasses, so they are denser. Turbos don't run on heat, they run on moving gasses.
I'd love to hear your reasoning behind this because I've had a horrible day and I could use some entertainment. You don't want density per se, but rather volume. Heat creates volume which in turn increases pressure, which in turn creates faster, more efficient spool-up.
That said, a cooler exhaust gas would require a smaller turbine, and the opposite for hotter gases. It's all about efficiency of the turbne. But to say cooler exhaust gases are better is incorrect. Yes, they run on moving gases. But that's only a small part of the equation.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edited Friday, September 22, 2006 12:56 PM
Heat IS energy, energy creates work, WORK turns the wheel.
fortune cookie say:
better a delay than a disaster.
From STS's website
Doesn't heat create the velocity in the exhaust gasses to spool the turbo?
No, heat doesn't create velocity. Heat creates volume. If you look at any of the physics laws for gasses, you will find that pressure and volume and heat are related. PV=NRT is a popular one, The V isn't for velocity, it is for Volume.
The turbine housing is what creates the velocity. The scrolling design that reduces the volume of the exhaust chamber as it scrolls around causes the gasses to have to increase in velocity and pressure to maintain the same flow rate.
Hotter gasses have more volume, thus requiring a higher A/R which in effect means that it starts at say 3" and scrolls down to approximately 1". Lower temperature gasses are denser and have less volume, so they require a lower A/R housing which would start at the same 3" volume, as the turbine housings use standard flanges, and scroll down to say 3/4".
Now if you were to reverse the housings in application, the conventional turbo would spool up extremely quick, at say around 1500 rpm but would cause too much backpressure at higher rpms because the higher volume of gas couldn't squeeze through the 3/4" hole without requiring a lot of pressure to force it through. On the reverse side, the remote mounted turbo with its cooler denser gasses, wouldn't spool up till say around 4000 rpms but once spooled up would make efficient power because it doesn't require hardly any backpressure to push the lower volume of gas through the larger 1" hole.
Jim Mitchell wrote:No, heat doesn't create velocity. Heat creates volume. If you look at any of the physics laws for gasses, you will find that pressure and volume and heat are related. PV=NRT is a popular one, The V isn't for velocity, it is for Volume.
Hotter gasses have more volume
The obvious problem I see here is that they are trying to relate only temperature and volume, when they should be focusing on temperature and pressure (since volume is practically held constant in an inclosed system, like an exhaust pipe). This increase in pressure would literally force the gas into the turbine wheel, causing it to spool more quickly.
Also, it's called the IDEAL gas law for a reason, and unburnt fuel igniting in a cat is hardly an ideal situation (heck, exhaust gas is incredibly far from ideal period).
Don't believe everything you read on companies' websites, many of them actually have no idea what they're talking about, or they'll 'edit' the truth to help their case.
Although, I guess Johnny already said this:
ln2johnny wrote:Heat creates volume which in turn increases pressure, which in turn creates faster, more efficient spool-up.
fortune cookie say:
better a delay than a disaster.
Quote:
Hotter gasses have more volume
This really mis-states the issue. Gases at any temperature have the same volume as the container they are in. When you seal a container of air, the air doesn't sit in one side of the container, or the top, or the bottom. If you heat the container, the gas doesn't "overfill" the container. The gas always fills the container completely.
Simple temperature measurements will show greater temps before the turbo than after. The heat energy is consumed by the turbo. This is because something needs to "power" the turbocharger.
Here's something to think about. If the energy to power the turbo comes only from the exhaust flow, from either the velocity (as some people think) or the volume, as you've quoted, then we could do a very neat thing indeed. Since you can spin a turbo with compressed air, we could connect a turbo so the compressor outlet is hooked to the turbine inlet and the turbine outlet is hooked to the compressor inlet. By blowing into the turbo with an air nozzle, we could start it spinning. If it really only takes flow to make it run then the turbo compressor would increase flow, which would move to the turbine, which would spin it faster, which would create more flow, which would move to the turbine, which would spin it faster... The turbo would power itself!
It is true that you need a volume of gas to make the turbo work. Something has to "carry" heat energy to the turbine. Those somethings are the molecules of the exhaust gas. With no exhaust there's no amount of heating that will power the turbo. At the same time, with no heating, the exhaust gases will be asked to give up more heat than they have. The turbo will not work without both. But heat is the real power source. Look at what happens with a too rich mixture in the combustion chambers. EGT's go down and the turbo is a slug.
It might help to imagine little molecules of exhaust gas bouncing off one another. The more you heat the gas, the faster and harder these molecules collide with each other and the container they are in. This is what makes the pressure readings you are used to seeing. If you can direct most of these molecules so they bounce off a wheel, you can make the wheel turn. The scroll directs the molecules, the turbine wheel is turned as they bounce off it, and the molecules give up energy as they bounce.
Maybe this helps?
-->Slow
No Slow, you're wrong, the people who make the kit are right because they're 'experts'
fortune cookie say:
better a delay than a disaster.
if your sticking with ur budget, go with the fmu and like ln2johnny
said, u need a wideband wether u go fmu or hptuners. by going fmu u will save atleast $250. the supercharger would be your best bet in my opinion for ur budget, get a supercharger(a coupl hundred?) that will fit from a gm vehicle at a junkyard, belt($20?), custom manifold($400?), fmu($250 new), windband($350new), injectors if needed($200?new) = About $1500 w/injectors dude. and that with quality parts. if you go turbo, a custom stage 1 kit will run you atleast $1800-$2000, any cheaper and you get what you pay for.
