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Re: Boost MINI-FAQ (please read before posting)
Saturday, November 22, 2003 6:14 PM
alright, alright- try not to get off topic on this thread. Remember that it is a permanent fixture. If we post too much on it, it may throw people off. Relevant points like Evil Gt's last post are all good. <br>


<img src="http://www.j-body.org/registry/tyranthraxus/thumbnail_bluehood2.jpg"> <img src="http://www.j-body.org/registry/tyranthraxus/yy.gif">
<a href="http://www.cardomain.com/id/aasyranth">96 Sunfire GT Turbo</a>

Re: Boost MINI-FAQ (please read before posting)
Sunday, November 23, 2003 10:18 AM
I would like to add some to the FAQ here is the first thing:

The Turbocharger and manifold off a sunbird turbo, be it the 1.8 OHC OR the 2.0 OHC

WILL NOT

Bolt up to ANY other engine. Period. The 2.0/2.2/2200 OHV IS NOT the same engine is the 2.0 OHC

I get asked this almost weekly via e-mail. The manifold is compleatly specific to the Sunbird OHC motors. <br>


Re: Boost MINI-FAQ (please read before posting)
Sunday, November 23, 2003 10:28 AM
oh yeah. the BIG one I want to see in this FAQ

All the T3, T4, T61, T25, etc reffers to is a series of compressor housings, and it's used to refer to which compressor housings are compatible with what center housings and exhaust housings.

THAT IS ALL

While most T4's are larger then T3's and most are larger then T25's, this is the GENERAL understanding. IT is often, not true at all.

You need to compare SPECIFIC models of turbo's based on impeller inducer/exducer sizes, and the A/R ratio's of the housings before ANY comparison can be made.

T3, T4, T25, THEY ARE NOT SIZES OF TURBOS. THEY ARE STYLES OF TURBOS. <br>


Re: Boost MINI-FAQ (please read before posting)
Tuesday, November 25, 2003 3:44 PM
Some VERY useful General info for ppl interesting in boosting their cars... though it is from a civic forum.

ClubSi Turbo/Boost Fundamentals

Hope that helps.

- jinxedZ <br>

Disclaimer: All GM corporate employees, GM dealerships, GM service personnel or employees, family, friends, or acquaintances thereof: This in no way constitutes an admission or acknowledgement of tampering, modification, usage, or alteration of any vehicle in my possession or component thereof in such a fashion as to void, cancel, deny or otherwise refuse service on any service contracts, warrantees, or recall notices covering said vehicles. This and other posts submitted on this, or any Internet forum, under the screen name jinxedZ simply represent an attempt to gain acceptance from a peer group espousing cars of a high performance nature - especially those that have been altered to improve, enhance, or otherwise modify the automobile's natural characteristics. Any statements, claims, or graphical representations made that would constitute a violation of any contractual agreement are to be considered fictitious and not to be accepted in any court of law, or similar environment mediated for the purpose of dispute resolution
</a><br></font>
<b>Toronto Street Racing</b> | <b>J-Body club of Ontario</b> | <b>J-Body Tech Library</b>
Re: Boost MINI-FAQ (please read before posting)
Thursday, November 27, 2003 9:39 PM
I dont know if this has already been said, but can I recomend that someone makes a "Key" for boosted abreviations?
EX

BOV-Blow Off Valve

Since this is to help the new poeple to boost, I think that if they know all of the abreviations it will help them learn.

just a suggestion.

Chris <br>


Check Out More Pics Of My Car!
Re: Boost MINI-FAQ (please read before posting)
Friday, November 28, 2003 12:16 AM
BOV= Blow off valve
BPV = Bypass valve
W/G = WasteGate
MBC = Manual Boost Controller
EBC = Electronic Boost Controller
I/C = Intercooler
MAP = Manifold Air Pressure sensor
MAF = Mass AirFlow sensor (note, our cars don't use these, yay!)
IAT = intake (or incoming) air temperature
E/M = Exhaust Manifold
T/M = Turbo manifold
I/M = Intake manifold
T/B = Throttle body
D/P = DownPipe
Cat = Catalytic Converter
Vac = Vacuum
DIS = Distributorless ignition system
Tach = Tachometer
WBO2 = Wide Band Oxygen sensor
NBO2 = Normal Band O2
EGR = Exhaust Gas recirculation system
PFI = Port Fuel injection
MPFI = Multiport fuel injection
SFI = Sequential fuel injection
TBI = Throttle body injection
Adv. = Advance (timing)
Ret. = Retard (timing)
FPR = Fuel Pressure Regulator
AFPR = Adjustable FPR
FMU = Fuel Management unit
ECM = Electronic control module
ECU = Emmisions control unit (same thing as an ECM, or a PCM)
PCM = Powertrain control module
F/P = Fuel Pressure
P&P = Port and Polish
LSD = Limited Slip Differential
T/C = Torque Converter
BAR = Unit of pressure 1 bar = 1 atmosphere, 2 bars about 15 PSI of boost
PSI = Unit of pressure (american)
Kpa = Unit of pressure (metric)
FOD = Fawk Off and Die

Ok I think that about covers it, lol... Anyone care to add to my list? Chris aren't you glad the man lives in NY <br>


Re: Boost MINI-FAQ (please read before posting)
Friday, November 28, 2003 12:36 AM
I'm feeling generous. lol. and bored. here they all are.. DEFINED

BOV = Blow off valve
Mounts between the turbo and the throttle body, allows excess boost pressure to be released when the throttle plate closes when you let off to shift or slow down.. makes that nice sound, and prevents compressor damage from a sudden wave of high pressure smacking into the turbo trying to force it backwards.

BPV = Bypass valve
Same thing as a BOV, only the air isn'pt vented to the engine bay, it's vented to PAST the throttle body. Not only does it not make a noise, but it's needed for cars using a MAF sensor, so that all "air in the system can be explained" Cars that use MAF and BOV's stutter/stall when the BOV goes off.

W/G = WasteGate
Limits maximum boost by allowing some exhaust gas to bypass the turbo, can either be external to the turbo (looks like a BOV) or internal (is a flapper door). Externals generally allow for higher boost levels without "creep" where maximum boost slowly get's higher.

MBC = Manual Boost Controller
A simple twist valve normally, that changes the amount of boost pressure required before pressure is sent to the wastegate, thus opening it. this is used to actually SET maximum boost.

EBC = Electronic Boost Controller
Just like a MBC, but computer controlled. All stock turbo cars after the mid eighties have these.

I/C = Intercooler
A "radiator for air" that absorbs intake air heat to cool down the hot air charge from the turbo. There are several types of I/C's but this isn't the pace to discuss them.

MAP = Manifold Air Pressure sensor
Measures the pressure OR vaccuum of the intake air. These are used as the primary means of measuring air in "Speed density" style fuel injected cars, like j-bodies.

MAF = Mass AirFlow sensor (note, our cars don't use these, yay!)
the "modern alternitive for MAP's, this actually measures the amount of ACTUAL air entering an engine via weird technical voodoo you dont' want me to explain. you don't have this, forget you heard of it.

IAT = intake (or incoming) air temperature
Measures the temperature of the intake air, is used in fueling calcs by the ECM

E/M = Exhaust Manifold
Bolts to the head, directs exhaust air out. duh.

T/M = Turbo manifold
Bolts to the head, directs exhaust air into the turbo. duh.

I/M = Intake manifold
Bolts to the head, directs air from the T/B to the head. derrr duh.

T/B = Throttle body
Do I have to explain this?

D/P = DownPipe
Bolts to the turbo, then to the exhaust. it's the "intermediate" ussualy it's cast iron.

Cat = Catalytic Converter
Scrubs excess emmisions causing chemicals from you're exhaust and excess fuel via more voodoo you don't need to know.

Vac = Vacuum
What you're engine is under, when it isn't boosted

DIS = Distributorless ignition system
A ignition system without a distributor, a fully computerized ignition system. Digital if you will. all j-bodies after like 90ish are DIS

Tach = Tachometer
Measure engine RPM.

WBO2 = Wide Band Oxygen sensor
0-5 volts range, linear scale, for measure A/F ratios very accuratly, Dynos and serious tuners and smart people use these can be found stock on some uber-low emmisions cars (read honda's toyotas, etc). Costs about 100 bucks per sensor :-O

NBO2 = Normal Band O2
What j-bodies normally have. these measure a/f on 0-1 volt scale, and it's very UNLINEAR, that is to say it gets very unaccurate when measuring anything other then perfect A/F

EGR = Exhaust Gas recirculation system
Takes a small amount of exhaust gas from combustion, at high throttle, and feeds it back into the intake, to "cool" the combustion temp off so that NoX (nitrosomething of Oxygen aka Greenhouse Gas) cant' form. J-bodies after 2K don't have these (thank god). It also reduces detonation when the engine is stock (there are better ways to fight it).

PFI = Port Fuel injection
Generic name for MPFI. All j-bodies after 90ish have some form of MPFI.

MPFI = Multiport fuel injection
Generic name for PFI, lol. I don't want to cover injection types sorry.

SFI = Sequential fuel injection
Another type of MPFI, again, blah about this.

TBI = Throttle body injection
You don't have this Only pre 90ish j-bodies do. It's like a carb with a single fuel injector.

Adv. = Advance (timing)
Someone else handle timing I'm getting sleepy. bah

Ret. = Retard (timing)
see above


FPR = Fuel Pressure Regulator
Regulates fuel pressure to a constant level to maintain fuel rail pressure for the injectors. it's the little can on your fuel rail.

AFPR = Adjustable FPR
A FPR you can change the pressure setting of. Also, some factory boosted cars (like mine) have a vacuum line running to their FPR that raises fuel pressure based on Boost pressure. Also called a "rising rate" FPR then.

FMU = Fuel Management unit
A piggy back FPR or sorts that raises fuel pressure based on boost. It's a handicap for turbo cars with improper fuel systems for running happy amounts of boost.

ECM = Electronic control module
THE BRAIN! This baby does it all! and I refuse to call it anything other then a ECM. That's what my fuse box says for it

ECU = Emmisions control unit (same thing as an ECM, or a PCM)
If you call an ECM this you are gay.

PCM = Powertrain control module
if you call a ECM this you are gay AND a ford lover! that's like 2x the gay.

F/P = Fuel Pressure
Um, the pressure of fuel in the rail.

P&P = Port and Polish
To smooth the ports in a cylinder head, to enlarge them slightly, to make the air enter the combustion chamber smoother, and to put a mirror polish on the exhaust ports and a rougher one on the intake ports. WHy? That's a nother lesson.

LSD = Limited Slip Differential
Locks both tires when accelerating in a straight line, so that not just one tire is gripping the road. Better ones even lock in turns at lower speeds. These give you better traction.

T/C = Torque Converter
The automatic tranny equivilent of a clutch (damn I'm oversimplifying)

BAR = Unit of pressure 1 bar = 1 atmosphere, 2 bars about 15 PSI of boost
^^

PSI = Unit of pressure (american)
If you don't know this you can't even fill your tires. Get out of here.

Kpa = Unit of pressure (metric)
Canadian eh?

FOD = Fawk Off and Die
What I say to people when I'm sick of lame questions. Hopefully all this will help.


Ok argue, bewittle what I said, and turn this poor FAQ into a flame fest. good night. <br>


Re: Boost MINI-FAQ (please read before posting)
Friday, November 28, 2003 12:47 AM
Protonus wrote:

The Turbocharger and manifold off a sunbird turbo, be it the 1.8 OHC OR the 2.0 OHC

WILL NOT

Bolt up to ANY other engine. Period. The 2.0/2.2/2200 OHV IS NOT the same engine is the 2.0 OHC


On that note... the closest that you're gonna get for a 2.0/2.2 OHV motor is to use the exhaust manifold for something like an 89 2.0L engine. This is pretty much a log type manifold, but you'll have to have it modified with something like a T3 flange.

KPa = KiloPascal
Nobody measures with it anyways, so it dont matter.

Please note that PSI means Pounds Per Square Inch.

MSD - MULTIPLE SPARK DISCHARGE
MSD is commonly used to describe a brand of ignition that does just as it says. It fires multiple sparks in a cylinder for 20 degrees of crankshaft roatation. This gets a better burn, more mileage, maybe a bit more power and makes the engine feel smoother. It also allows you to retard your timing so you can use it with boost or nitrous.

<br>

<img src ="http://www.j-body.org/registry/shooff/personal_pic.jpg">
- Nitrous Express Kit..... 500 some odd dollars
- Goal = Custom turbo kit for 600 dollars or less
- Creating a thread 19 pages long about spitting or swallowing.....Priceless!
Re: Boost MINI-FAQ (please read before posting)
Friday, November 28, 2003 7:22 AM
Protonus you know the Roc is boring if you have the time to write all of that stuff out, lol

Right now I am in Florida and can't wait to get home to snow <-----Sarcasm

Good job though on the definitions and abreviations. <br>


Check Out More Pics Of My Car!
Re: Boost MINI-FAQ (please read before posting)
Saturday, November 29, 2003 9:00 PM
Dont forget eh 2.0 Turbo Grand Am.. its the same as te Sunfire
Re: Boost MINI-FAQ (please read before posting)
Saturday, November 29, 2003 9:58 PM
Thank you Aasyranth for this posting and Thank you Protonus for all the definitions and abreviations. I have a 2001 and I want to boost it but I WELL wait until the warranty is up before doing so.. I have a question ... I'm thinking about gone with the supercharger kit,, and I looked at all the sites you've posted my questions is after I buy the supercharge kit and I see all the parts you get but do I have to do anything else to the engine??? Like bigger fuel injections, bigger TB and/or spark plugs and wires?!?!


Thx
Nimrod

Re: Boost MINI-FAQ (please read before posting)
Saturday, November 29, 2003 10:48 PM
Please stay on topic this is meant to be a FAQ not a question/answer session, nimrod, please ask your questions in a new post, dont' clutter this up with stuff.

that goes for everyone I want to keep this being an FAQ...



Re: Boost MINI-FAQ (please read before posting)
Sunday, November 30, 2003 5:51 PM
Sorry Dude did not mean to riffle your shorts... Please had a glass of crown!!!
Re: Boost MINI-FAQ (please read before posting)
Tuesday, December 02, 2003 11:41 AM
I think now would be a good time to lock this forum cause this isnt going in a good direction
Re: Boost MINI-FAQ (please read before posting)
Tuesday, December 09, 2003 8:07 PM
How much boost can I run on a stock engine? And of course I mean daily, not just a one time deal.


Well, from what I've read on the org, a bone stock 2.4 will take up to 5 psi with an FMU and plugs. Some take it to 7psi, but it gets foggy here, with some saying that the fuel system maxed out, while others say it's not. Best to have bigger injectors no matter what when going over 5 psi. 9-10 psi is generally when the ignition needs to be retarded. People typically use an MSD DIS 2, and then go two degrees of retard. A larger fuel pump is also needed for more flow. Then, from what I have gathered from some of the big guns around here, 13 psi is the end limit for the 2.4. Any more, and the head gasket blows. With the head gasket changed, 15psi is possble, but the rods are right on their max, and must be very fine tuned.

If you blow your engine following these GENERAL guidelines, for a 2.4 only, don't blame me! YOU TURNED THE BOOST KNOB, NOT ME. It is your responsibilty to properly tune a turbo car. If you're unsure of what you're doing, don't do it. <br>

O noes!
Re: Boost MINI-FAQ (please read before posting)
Tuesday, December 09, 2003 11:04 PM
^^^ The above question, and answer is *BS.

And for the sake of this FAQ I will state why, and hopefully stop some of these bloody questions people ask.

There is NO WAY you can say "how much "boost" will my "blah blah" engine will take?

Why? Because the AIR PRESSURE is only one of MANY factors!

13 PSI out of a small T-2 non intercooled is COMPLEATLY different from 13 PSI out of a T61 intercooled!

Both have their ups and downs, here is why you can't say "how much boost can I run":

1. The first turbo will spool at a lower RPM then the second, which means you are under boost more often in daily driving. This means more power off the line and a better 1/4 mile if tuned correctly, however, it also means more wear on parts due to more power constantly

2. The first turbo will also produce way more heat, especially non-intercooled because of it's limited FLOW. This will cause the onset of detonation and the need for retarded timing to be more apparent. With a larger turbo, the air is cooler, but the trade off is lag and less boost down low.

3. The Second turbo setup will produce more peak power at high RPMs, this means much more stress on parts, when it matters most. This can cause to high RPM damage that you normally wouldn't see on the street, but only racing.



So to sum it all up, "how much boost can I run" is WAY to vauge of a question to even BOTHER answering. You have to have exact same engine setups with exact same turbo setups to even compare, 1 turbo will produce different results then another, or one intercooler over another, it's all way too variable. You have to lock down those variables before the question can be answered. People that ask such questions should not be trying to modify they're engines! They have a lot more reading and learning to do first! Same thing for people trying to answer such questions with definitive answers! <br>


Re: Boost MINI-FAQ (please read before posting)
Friday, December 19, 2003 11:00 PM
Just want to add that this is a great post.

Protonus, I agree with you and probably cannot have said it better myself.

If you are asking these type of questions, you really need to do some hard searching and find out how exactly a turbo/supercharger setup works.

Once you get a good understanding of what a boosted motor needs to operate properly and the different components and you still have a SPECIFIC question, we can better help you.

I researched for over 5 months before I even bought a single part or started asking questions here on the org.

Please, do your homework and find out what you want to accomplish and then build your forced induction setup from there.

Asking questions like how much boost will it take to get my car to 250 hp?

Like Protonus said, there are way to many variables to even begin to help with a question like that.

I am willing to help anyone with specific questions, but some of the emails I have been getting are rediculous. I have gotten many with people wanting to know every thing that they need to turbocharge a car. I am sorry I did not respond to those people, but there is no way I can plan a turbo setup for you. If you are asking those kind of questions, you should NOT be even thinking about boost yet...

Just take your time and make sure everything is covered before you start slapping stuff on your car.

And I cannot tell you how many times I have heard this:

DO IT RIGHT THE FIRST TIME!

Know what you are working with, know your goals, then go from there...

Just thought I would add my $.02.

Thanks,
Jeff <br>

--------------------------------
'99 Z24 Turbo
Mmmmm... booost...

CarDomain Site: http://www.cardomain.com/id/kane5576
Re: Boost MINI-FAQ (please read before posting)
Tuesday, January 13, 2004 8:31 AM
I plan on getting boosted soon but first need to build up my engine. Any recommendations on parts would be appreciated.
Re: Boost MINI-FAQ (please read before posting)
Friday, January 30, 2004 10:26 AM
Ok, just to add something else to this FAQ.

There are WAY too many post being brought up about using the GM S/C Reflash on pre '00, or using this on a turbo setup instead of a S/C setup.

1) This reflash is ONLY available for the '00+ 2.4L Cav/Sunfire's

2) If you have a '00+ you can use the program to run either a S/C OR Turbo. Both have been proven to work.

3) This reflash will NOT work on any car '99 or below because the wiring has changed between late '99 to '00. They added a BCM, which controls a lot of different things.

4) Look at my post for more information or do a search for information. No new posts need to be made asking if it will work on your car. Read point #1.

5) Here is a link to my long post about the reflash.

Later,
Jeff
<br>

--------------------------------
CarDomain Site: http://www.cardomain.com/id/kane5576
Re: Boost MINI-FAQ (please read before posting)
Thursday, February 19, 2004 8:45 AM
not to be annoying, but do you guys know of any sites where i can piece togather my own supercharge/turbo kit instead of paying extra to buy the already assembled kit?
Re: Boost MINI-FAQ (please read before posting)
Thursday, February 19, 2004 11:17 AM
Jeremy Musial wrote:

not to be annoying, but do you guys know of any sites where i can piece togather my own supercharge/turbo kit instead of paying extra to buy the already assembled kit?


Well you know what it is annoying. We've said like 10x in this thread it is not a place for question, nor is there ANY reason that you should think you should ask a question here. Make a new thread and for the love of god stop asking questions here.

If you are even asking this question you don't know enough to actualy peice together a "kit" so please do some more reading like um, how about this thread for starters. <br>



Re: Boost MINI-FAQ (please read before posting)
Monday, February 23, 2004 10:45 PM
Everything you wanted to know about injectors but were afraid to ask.

or

Everything you don't want to know about injectors but realized they are an essential element to a properly tuned/running turbocharged/supercharged engine and eventually will one day need to know.

This was apparently written up by Russ Collins from RC Engineering. If you don't know, they engineer and service just about every type/make/model of fuel injector on the planet. No doubt some of you techies will have read this. It is, IMHO, definitely worth a reread though. Enjoy.



INJECTORS FROM - Russ Collins of R.C. Engineering
Please let me shed some light on the injector subject also, or should I say, let me turn on the lights for you. Injectors do in fact come with different internal resistance. (Impedance). High resistance, called "Saturated", and low resistance, called "Peak and Hold", are the two types commonly used today. At this time, - 90% - of all automobiles, including the Japanese, are using Saturated - 12 to 16 Ohm Injectors. Toyota uses Sat. injectors in all but the Turbo Models. Earlier models used a mix of the two. The, electro-magnetic solenoid, fuel injectors used in all automobiles today are all grandchildren of the Bendix company. Bendix is a subsidiary of the Chrysler Corp. and was the founder of the electronic fuel injection system that we use today. It was called "The Electrojector" System and it was vacuum tube operated. Patent rights were reportedly sold to Bosch in the late fifties. An interesting bit of trivia.
Injectors come in many different shapes and sizes also, -hose end, top/rail feed with both, American and Japanese size "o" rings, galley/side feed -and dual hose feed. Injectors are also manufactured with many different wire clip configurations, Type C,D(2types),E,F, 10 and an ever increasing number of Specialty Types. Toyota uses (c, d,e,f) to differentiate between P&H and Sat. Units. This is to prevent mix-ups in the service dept. Type C & E are P&H and Type D&F are Sat. Many of these injectors look exactly alike except for part #s. Three types of top "O" rings are used and a multitude of lower cushions are in use. When changing injectors all of these problems must be addressed. Injectors should always be tested with a volt/ohm meter before using to determine type. Be careful, Injector types should never be mixed. Sat. Injectors can be used in P&H systems, but not the other way around. More on this later.

Tomco does not make injectors, they sell Rochester, Lucas and Nippon-Denso brand, to name a few. The only injectors that they sell with plastic caps are Nippon -Denso - Many early Toyotas used plastic pintle caps, along with most of the other Japanese cars in existence today. Bosch also uses plastic on 95% of its models. Lucas, no plastic pintle caps at all. NOTE: all injectors use a molded plastic top. The Tomco part # for the 7M-GTE Injector is 15530 and guess what, -- its a Toyota/ OEM Nippon Denso, Made in Japan, injector. Retail cost is $161.92 each. We have them in stock and sell them for $121.24 to club members-- We have 550cc & 560cc Lucas Upgrades for this engine also for $92.42 and $108.75 respectively. For racing use only of course.

R.C. Engineering sells new Lucas and Bosch, replacement and up-grade, injectors for almost every automobile made. We also supply customized injectors of all makes and models to provide any flow rate and spray pattern you may desire. Late model 300ZX, RX-7s and Supra side feed injectors are a specialty, as well as our most popular Hi-Flow Bosch, Nippon-Denso and Siemens units, that range in size from 550cc to 1000cc+/Min. We sell and service injectors, all day, every day. We are not a hobby shop or a part time business, we take pride in what we do, and stand behind our service. Guaranteed. After dissembling every make of injector that there is, We have found that the stainless steel Lucas is, by far, the finest in construction and finish. The stainless steel innards, exclusive to Lucas, are a work of art. The unique metering disc assembly is years ahead of the, 40 year old, pintle design. Bosch, Siemens and Nippon-Denso are also excellent injectors that are used worldwide. (See Patterns later)

SIZE / RATINGS ---- ALL INJECTOR MANUFACTURES USE CC PER./MIN. OR LBS. PER/HR. TO RATE AND CATALOGUE THEIR PARTS. ---{CC /MIN. DIVIDED BY 10.50 = LBS. PER/HR.} This is the commonly used formula for pump gasoline, using a specific gravity of .73-. 74 and differs when temperature change and viscosity of the medium is altered. Let me repeat, ALL manufacturers use the same basic method of sizing, regardless of Country of Origin, cc/Min. or Lbs./Hr. --- R.C. Eng. Uses this same World Wide Standard to rate Injectors--- This is just a Rating, not a sole testing procedure. We supply injectors to a large majority of the most successful Professional Racers and engine builders in the world, including Vinny Ten, owner of the Worlds Fastest Supra. In 35 years of Professional Racing we have never had a request for injectors stipulating what they should flow at "2400 RPM @ 6 Ms". This is a fine test, I'm sure, for smog stations and general trade repair shops, that specialize in emission testing but not for a Performance Manufacturer or a serious Race Team operation.

Professional Racers always order injectors by the Static flow rate, (wide open) and will state System Pressure used.- (720cc @ 51 PSI) -- They calculate Brake Specific Fuel Consumption first and then use this formula. (HP req. Per cylinder - X - B.S.F.C.) / Duty Cycle = Static injector flow rate required. ----- (100 HP per. cyl.) X (B.S.F.C. of .55 lbs. fuel/HP /Hr) = (55 lbs./Hr or 577cc /Min) -divided by -.80 - (Duty Cycle) = 721cc /Min. This will be the required flow rate if running at @ 80% Duty Cycle. This formula provides you with the required amount of fuel that each injector, at wide open, (100% Duty Cycle) will have to supply in order to support the target horsepower. System pressure used will determine the actual injector needed. This number only indicates the amount of fuel required, not the injector size. Some Drag Race cars, do in fact, run at 100% Duty Cycle. We do not encourage this practice. A larger than necessary injector run at 70% duty cycle, will provide more controllable performance than an injector that is being pushed to 90%-95% limits.

TEST EQUIPMENT The available Injector testing equipment, on the market today consists of The New Age and the ASNU machines. Both of these machines are fine products and they perform as advertised. These units are designed with a capacity (Measuring device) of 100-cc per-tube, and only 90% of this is usable for testing. What this means is that these machines will only measure 90 cc /Min at full flow. At 80% Duty Cycle they are limited to 112 cc/Min. If you test a 550-cc injector in this machine it can only run for 9.8 Seconds without overflowing the test tube. As you can see testing at 60 Sec. will be 6 times more accurate than a 10-Sec. Test. The Margin of error increases dramatically with a decrease in test time. If you use one of these machines you must test at very low speeds and for a very short period of time, you don't have any choice. In a test at 8000 rpm @ 80% Duty Cycle you would be limited to only 12 Sec. of test time, with a 550 cc Inj. I'm sure that these machines are quite adequate for most tune up applications and repair stations but they have their limits. That limit is a, 6Ms at Fast Idle, test result. We don't feel that this is a very conclusive evaluation when testing high performance injectors. Time is money, but "In the Race for quality and perfection, there is no Finish Line," or Time Slip waiting for you.

R.C. Engineering has built the most sophisticated array of injector testing equipment, commercially, available in the world today. We analyze, calibrate, evaluate, disassemble, modify and customize fuel injectors 8 to 9 hourís day -5 days a week. We have three different Calibration Test Machines, two of which are virtually unlimited in pressure and flow rates. The spray pattern- testing machine is a single injector test stand, with a clear chamber, 8 inches in diameter and 18 inches tall. It allows us to make an unimpaired and exacting visual analysis of patterns and droplet size. It is also equipped with a Strobe light and Laser Beam to greatly enhance droplet size and highlight any targeting distortions or coalescence. (See Patterns later) Our newest Calibration Machine was built at a cost of over $32,000.00 and will provide a computer generated print out over varying RPM, pressures, and pulse widths, in color, similar to a dyno test graphic report. This will provide a graphic depiction of min/max Duty Cycle failures and pulse to pulse variances. The 2200X4 calibration machine will handle 2200 cc per/Min, that's 209 Lbs. per/Hr. and also has Strobe and Laser accessories

TESTING - RATING At R.C. Engineering we rate all injectors at 43.5 PS.I. / 3 BAR. The injectors are run for a least 60 Seconds in each test. This is becoming a universal standard and allows us to accurately compare differently rated

units. All currently used injectors are designed to operate between 2.5 Bar/36.25 P.S.I. and 3 Bar/43.5 P.S.I. Chrysler some times uses 3.7 Bar/55 P.S.I. as does Porsche. There are some rare exceptions to these standards, but they are rare. By using 3 Bar as a standard, we can easily compare an injector, rated at 252cc @ 2.5 Bar (36.25 P.S.I.), to an injector that is rated at 2.7 Bar, 3 Bar or 4 Bar. (See Pressure later)

We test injectors in 8 different procedures and at varying pulse widths with pressures ranging from 43.5 PSI for the standard test, up to 100 PSI for leakage and electronic evaluation. If an injector leaks or gets weak at the higher pressures we see this on the oscilloscope and the digital flow meter. If the pattern format starts to defuse, and produce out of range coalescence, the injector is of course discarded. We analyze this with a strobe light and laser beam to measure width and droplet size. If the injector passes the leak test we return to 43.5 P.S.I. and check for minimum response pulse width. (How low will it go test.)? Minimum cycle time for most pintle types is 2.0 Ms. for P&H and 2.5 for Saturated units. The Disc will cycle as low as 1.0 Ms., pulse width, in P&H and .2.0 Ms. for the Sat. Unit. (The Lucas Disc weighs only .4 Grams. and the Bosch / Nippon -Denso pintle is at 3.9 to 4 Grams. --- Ten times heavier) The reduced inertial loading of the disc, allows the Disc to overcome the hydro- static load at excitation quicker and return to it's seat faster, providing quicker response times and more consistent cycle-to-cycle values.

Next we test each injector at varying pulse widths, over the entire rpm range, from idle to 12,000 RPM. Starting the test at minimum Duty Cycle and increasing to 80% Duty Cycle, including the fast idle test at 2400 RPM. (80% is considered maximum usable Duty Cycle and is commonly used to calculate Brake Specific Fuel Consumption). We use the strobe light and the laser beam through out the testing cycle. It's a wonderful way to visually freeze the patterns, in mid air, and actually measure the results with the laser. No one else has this capability, and it's a real interesting light show. The last test that we run is the Tell All Test. We run each unit up in duty cycle, at 12,000 RPM, until it fails electronically. (Seen on the oscilloscope) This is prominently displayed with the laser and strobe. Most pintle type injectors fail at 86%/88% and the Disc will usually go to 92% +, depending on system pressure. All must cycle smoothly up to 85% to Pass. Bad injectors will sometimes go "static" at 70% or so and are discarded. NOTE: Most pintle injectors will increase flow rates up to 88%, 92% with Disc injectors, and then go "semi-static", half open-half closed, just before going full static. This time-out event occurs at different time/pulse width durations, in different injectors, but always produces a 50% or so Duty Cycle flow rate. This extremely dangerous situation will usually occur at the worst of times, full throttle-max boost-high RPM- just when you need 100% fuel delivery you get 50% and go dead lean. BANG!!! This problem seems to amplify a bit at higher pressures.

PRESSURE AND FLOW CHANGES Fuel pressure changes will alter flow rates as follows - To find a new Flow Rate from a PSI change, Divide the new Pressure by the rated or old pressure. Find the square root of this number and multiply it by the old or rated flow rate. Example: Injector rated at 430 cc/Min at 43.5 PSI. If you raise the pressure to 49 PSI - Divide (49 / 43.5) = 1.1264 --- The Sq.Root of 1.1264 = 1.0613 --- Multiply 430cc X 1.0613 and you get 456.37cc/Min. This will be your new flow rate. The injector size will still be listed at 430cc/Min @ 43 PSI.

To find the Pressure required, to produce a Desired Flow Rate, use this Formula. Divide desired flow rate by test flow rate, Square this number, and multiply it by the test PSI. The answer is the PSI required to produce the desired flow rate. To increase a 720cc/Min. injector rated @ 43.5 PSI to 800 cc/Min. --(800cc per/Min) / (720cc per/Min.)= 1.111 X 1.111 = 1.234 (1.234 X 43.5 PSI)= 53.7 PSI. New pressure of 53.7 PSI will yield 800cc/Min. from a 720cc/Min. rated injector. Caution: Up-graded fuel pumps will be required in many cases when significant injectors or pressure changes are made.

PATTERNS Of the 6 Basic metering devices used today -- Pintle (Bosch / Nippon -Denso type), Ball and socket (Rochester), Radius Rod (Siemens), Swirl plate (some Mitsubishi), Diffuser/Pintle Type (Toyota - and some models of all makes) Air feed Atomizers (many makes for emissions reasons) and the Disc Type used exclusively by Lucas. The atomization and pattern width will increase on single discharge pintle type injectors at, higher pressures. The Lucas Disc type does not deviate as severely. Dual discharge, diffuser type, pintle injectors don't change atomization quality, at higher pressures, like the single pintle discharge injectors. Dual discharge injectors target the fuel toward the valve stem and reduce wall wetting, (puddling) behind the valve. These injectors are not high atomizers but targeted delivery types.

The Lucas injector maintains its pattern, cycle to cycle, the best under varying pressures and pulse widths. Diffuser/Pintle injectors have a rather tight, wetter pattern (more coalescence) than single discharge injectors. This is evidently caused by the impact of fuel on the diffuser surface causing the fuel to partially recollect. This provides a more concentrated liquid volume flux at the center of the cone, a tighter pattern angle, and a more accurate targeting capability. Cross sectional area of the port and distance to the valve is crucial with this type of injector.

At 8000 RPM the intake valve is opening and closing at 66 times a sec. and is only open for an average of 9 Mil/Sec. At this cyclic rate the transient time to complete the delivery of fuel, from injector to valve, is critical. This is why; Indy car injectors are very precisely targeted and timed to provide a solid stream of fuel with non-existent atomization, LBDS, "Laser Beam Delivery System". In these engines the injectors can discharge fuel, at a "just prior to valve -open position", and get it all down the hole. As the fuel impinges the hot intake valve it virtually vaporizes and mixes quite well with the incoming air forming a very homogenous charge. This is one of the most extreme situations but it's a real interesting one. As an added benefit, the latent heat of fuel vaporized in the chamber also provides charge cooling that makes the mixture denser. A denser, heavier mixture (cold and thick) will produce more power then a thin (hot and light) charge. This is why Turbo intercoolers are so effective. Injector timing, phase angle, is altered by the ECU according to RPM in these systems and can control the delivery impact time precisely. In a, Steady State pressure, Fuel System the injector pulse is always moving at the same speed, regardless of engine speed changes. The velocity of discharged fuel is relevant to the area of the discharge port and the net operating pressure. Pressure changes activated by boost, at a 1:1 ratio, only compensate for port pressure and don't change the static pressure, flow rate or velocity. RPM adjusted fuel timing is utilized for this reason, it advances the injector timing based on engine speed, and maintains perfect impingement timing at all speeds.

ATOMIZATION High atomizing injectors are usually used in Throttle body applications only, and have a rather wide spray pattern. A wide, finely atomized pattern is wonderful for emissions and economy but can cause problems in higher performance engines. At low RPMs, with a low air flow rate, the slow moving finely atomized fuel has enough time to get past the valve and create a close to stoichiometric mixture. (Air/Fuel mixture of 14.70 - Chemically ideal) As RPMs increase this mass can't keep up, with valve open time, and many of the fuel droplets impinge the port wall and condense. Atomized fuel can only travel at port "air speed" and in large quantities it can actually displace air in the port. With a highly atomized mix in the port, at intake valve opening, the lighter droplets of fuel will be partly blown back up the port. This is caused by the residual exhaust pressure still resident in the combustion chamber. Some of this reverted mixture will adhere to port walls and condense. This puddling fuel may find its way home, on the next intake cycle, but it will cause cycle-to-cycle air/fuel ratio variances. The higher inertia of the more condensed fuel will carry it to its target. "The liquid film that wets the walls represents a capacitance that greatly reduces the transient response of the engine." (SAE 950506) This problem is compounded in Gang fire and Semi-gang fire systems, but is not as troublesome in sequential fire systems. Gang fire systems fire all injectors, every rotation, at the same time, discharging half of the required fuel at each event. Semi-gang fire systems fire groups of injectors in the same fashion, half-and-half, each rotation. Sequential systems fire each injector at a pre-determined time and discharge all required fuel in one event, prior to intake valve opening. In either of the gang fire systems there is no timing-of-event technology in operation, and as you can see it's a rather simple system. NOTE: 7M-GTE fuel systems are semi-gang fire, as is the ignition system, and the injectors are fired in the same order, 1&6-5&2-3&4, as the spark plugs. 2JZ/GTE systems are true sequential operations, 6 coils, 6 injectors, and 12 separate events---- A state of the art well formatted system.

It's a known fact that you can't burn fuel until it's atomized. It's also known that you can't burn fuel without air. The most important, of all known facts is that you can't burn anything, if it's not in the combustion chamber. The secret is to provide adequately atomized fuel with as much air as possible. Adequately atomized is the Secret Word of the day. Fuel does not have to be completely atomized at the injector tip (SMD of 10um - 20um) but it does have to get past the valve to do us any good. The more condensed the fuel delivery is the faster it will travel, (regulated by discharge area and pressure) and the more accurately it can be targeted. Resent (S.A.E.) "Injector Atomizing and Targeting" studies have provided us with one of the most prominent advances in High Performance Engine Management. These test programs have concluded that "accurate impingement onto the center of the valve head is vital for good vaporization" and "The targeting orientation of the injected fuel spray is a critical parameter in fuel evaporation" also that " Fuel injected directly onto the intake valve yields a significantly better engine response" (SAE950506) What all this means is, different engine designs require a different type of injector to operate efficiently and that 100% atomization is not always required or desired. In racing situations we usually have to do the best we can with what we have, or what's available. The goal, is of course, is to do the best in all cases, and in all situations. The best injector for your engine is the one that will yield an optimal fuel-air mixture and provide the required power output consistent with smooth and reliable operation. This is our goal, and all things considered, we feel that we provide an excellent service in this very specialized field.

INJECTOR TYPES:
Peak and hold injectors are fired at 4 to 6 Amps, through a ballast resistor, and then fold back to 1 - 2 Amps for the duration of the injection event. They are also known as "fold back" Injectors. Peak and hold injectors are faster responding than Saturated injectors by as much as 1 to 1.5 Ms. They are activated with more power at opening than the saturated types (4-6 Amps vs. .75 -1 Amp.). Peak and hold injectors will maintain injection delivery, cycle to cycle, continuity more accurately than the saturated type. This is particularly true and even more important in high-pressure (75 - 100+ PSI) systems. The higher Hydrostatic loading at excitation requires more amperage to initially activate the injector solenoid and properly maintain complete opening. Peak and hold systems are more expensive to manufacture because they require one computer "injector driver" per injector in most applications. This is a design requirement in Sequential Fire Systems where each injector is fired at a very precise, pre determined, time in the 720 degree 4 stroke processes. P&H injectors are also wound with copper wire instead of brass wire. Early 7M-GTE used Type E - P&H rail feed style up through 1992 and then changed to Type E, galley Feed units for the 2JZ/GTE Toyota lists and rates all of their injectors in cc/Per Minute at different pressures, 36.4 PSI. & 41.2. PSI.---- 7M-GTE injectors are listed at 430 cc Per/Min. at 42.1 PSI. and the 2JZ/GTE are rated at 540 cc/Min.

Saturated injectors are used in almost all-standard production, 1998, engines because of the system cost and simplicity. Saturated based systems usually fire all injectors at the same time, once every rotation discharging half of the required fuel per cycle at each event. Some systems fire half of the injectors at one time and the other half at a different time. These systems are called "Batch Fire" and "Semi-Batch Fire " respectively. This system is used in 90 % of all general production engines (cost and simplicity). In almost every case Manufactures will only use Peak and hold injectors in High Performance applications or in Turbo applications. This is true in the Ford/Mazda family, Chrysler/Mitsubishi family, Nissan Group and the Honda/Acura folks as of 1997. General Motors/Toyota cars are also in this same family. OEM APPLICATIONS GM uses Saturated Rochester injectors in everything but some of the High performance cars, hear they use Lucas Injectors, and in the turbo trucks they use Bosch. Toyota uses saturated injectors in everything but its turbo models - all Nippon-Denso. Honda, last year changed all but the NSX to saturated, most all of Keihin make with some IPT. Nissan uses saturated units only, as of this year, Jecs or Hitachi manufactures. Chrysler/Mitsubishi - same deal - all but the turbos are saturated, Siemens or Bendix make. Ford uses Bosch or Nippon-Denso depending on the Model. All are Sat. except Turbo Models. Bosch and Lucas injectors are used in VWs.. BMW , Bosch up until this year, now Lucas --- European cars use an assortment of injectors including Weber, Bosch and Lucas.

RC <br>

<br>
<img src="http://home.nycap.rr.com/xenox/jbody/jbody_shocker.jpg">
Re: Boost MINI-FAQ (please read before posting)
Thursday, April 15, 2004 6:10 AM
[URL=Knock Knock]Knock Knock[/URL]

If you want to keep your new found power you better read this. <br>


Re: Boost MINI-FAQ (please read before posting)
Saturday, April 17, 2004 12:14 AM
...and what happens when you don't add extra fuel to the extra air created from 'boost'...

maintaining the proper air/fuel ratio is, in my opinion, the most important factor in a turbo setup. <br>

<img src=http://hometown.aol.com/dynamicsnail/images/rachael_eye_sm.jpg>
Wastegate? I don't need no stickin' wastegate!
Re: Boost MINI-FAQ (please read before posting)
Monday, April 19, 2004 8:24 PM
lalala... ignore me, just fixing things...


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