BuiltNBoosted wrote:Bill Hahn Jr. wrote:Vince, I on the other hand know of hundreds of instances (all our customers, and all our own engines, including the most powerful J's in existence) where no such contact has occurred. The fact is, the plug is still many millimeters away from the piston dome...what you propose is impossible with SRT plugs, save for perhaps ultra-high compression pistons, which are not part of today's conversation in any case.
http://www.ecotecforum.com/forums/showthread.php?11160-Spark-Plugs-%28Boosted-n2o-MUST-READ!!!%29
im just saying id never run them... ill stick with same length as stock and 2 steps colder. they work for me and thats what I will stick to. If it aint broke, dont fix it.
I think he's wrong, Vince. While his theories are not without merit, I contend that he rattled (detonated) an engine, and then went on a witch hunt to place blame. Whatever he's managed to convince himself of, there is an overwhelmingly large body of evidence to the contrary regarding the successful use of these plugs.
Bill Hahn Jr.
Hahn RaceCraft
World's Quickest and Fastest Street J-Bodies
Turbocharging GM FWD's since 1988
www.turbosystem.com
Bill Hahn Jr. wrote:BuiltNBoosted wrote:Bill Hahn Jr. wrote:Vince, I on the other hand know of hundreds of instances (all our customers, and all our own engines, including the most powerful J's in existence) where no such contact has occurred. The fact is, the plug is still many millimeters away from the piston dome...what you propose is impossible with SRT plugs, save for perhaps ultra-high compression pistons, which are not part of today's conversation in any case.
http://www.ecotecforum.com/forums/showthread.php?11160-Spark-Plugs-%28Boosted-n2o-MUST-READ!!!%29
im just saying id never run them... ill stick with same length as stock and 2 steps colder. they work for me and thats what I will stick to. If it aint broke, dont fix it.
I think he's wrong, Vince. While his theories are not without merit, I contend that he rattled (detonated) an engine, and then went on a witch hunt to place blame. Whatever he's managed to convince himself of, there is an overwhelmingly large body of evidence to the contrary regarding the successful use of these plugs.
Yeah as i recall he did infact detonate with his set up and he blamed the srt 4 plugs for a "hot spot" in the chamber and that is what caused it. But i think he did detonate i remember his pictures of his plugs they looked like a melted electrode not a mashed one like being hit with a piston...
you guy's realize the srt4 plugs dip down in the chamber a mere 1.5mm more then factory? I measured them in a spare head.
LE61T PTE6262 Powered 
Are there full threads showing in the head?
1994 Saturn SL2 Home Coming Edition: backup car
2002 Chevy Cavalier LS Sport Coupe: In a Junk Yard
1995 Mazda Miata R-package Class=STR
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It would just make more worry about melting something to that one thread with some detonation and then stripping the hell out of the head as I took the plug out. Heck even carbon buildup could do that.
1994 Saturn SL2 Home Coming Edition: backup car
2002 Chevy Cavalier LS Sport Coupe: In a Junk Yard
1995 Mazda Miata R-package Class=STR
Sponsored by:
Kronos Performance
WPI Class of '12 Mechanical Engineering
WPI SAE Risk and Sustainability Management Officer
So far, so good.
Bill Hahn Jr.
Hahn RaceCraft
World's Quickest and Fastest Street J-Bodies
Turbocharging GM FWD's since 1988
www.turbosystem.com
Well, actually no, there's not. Here's the NGK plug I use, shown in an L61 head:
No threads showing, plug body flush with combustion chamber.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edited Monday, January 31, 2011 9:27 AM
Bill Hahn Jr.
Hahn RaceCraft
World's Quickest and Fastest Street J-Bodies
Turbocharging GM FWD's since 1988
www.turbosystem.com
hey i was just going off what phil said...
Qwibby {T3H Old QBE} wrote:i ra srt4 plugs fo 3 years.. they are 2 threads longer
but i guess i shouldnt because he also says he runs the ltr7IX-11
John H wrote: checked sun cavis profile..
NGK LTR7IX-11 2 step colder plugs
QBE (The Boosted One) wrote:i ran the ones suncavi has too
my theory of it all. Pick your own plug. You have 2 options here, pick which ever you feel comfortable with. Me, i feel comfortable with an exact replica of stock but 2 steps colder. Its all personal preference. I personally will choose NGK's every time. and spending $32 on plugs every year is minute to the rest of the car.
To each his own, for sure.
Nonetheless, I'm glad we dragged this subject out into the open and had the chance to dispel some misconceptions and rumors.
Bill Hahn Jr.
Hahn RaceCraft
World's Quickest and Fastest Street J-Bodies
Turbocharging GM FWD's since 1988
www.turbosystem.com
Those of you who run the copper plugs, how often do you change them? I have no problem running $36 worth of spark plugs and only having to re-gap them 3 times a year. I just worried with copper plugs that I'd go through $12 worth of spark plugs every 2-3 months. And do note that I run leaner than most people on here in boost because I like to live life on the edge.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edited Monday, January 31, 2011 11:53 AM
1994 Saturn SL2 Home Coming Edition: backup car
2002 Chevy Cavalier LS Sport Coupe: In a Junk Yard
1995 Mazda Miata R-package Class=STR
Sponsored by:
Kronos Performance
WPI Class of '12 Mechanical Engineering
WPI SAE Risk and Sustainability Management Officer
i change my iridiums once a year and never have re gapped them unless i had an issue. i check them when i pull them out and they are exactly the same as when i put them in gap wise.
BuiltNBoosted wrote:i change my iridiums once a year and never have re gapped them unless i had an issue. i check them when i pull them out and they are exactly the same as when i put them in gap wise.
Good to know. I'm going to be pulling mine read them and the check the gap after I fix my tune in the coming week. It'll be nice to know they take even less maintenance than I assumed.
1994 Saturn SL2 Home Coming Edition: backup car
2002 Chevy Cavalier LS Sport Coupe: In a Junk Yard
1995 Mazda Miata R-package Class=STR
Sponsored by:
Kronos Performance
WPI Class of '12 Mechanical Engineering
WPI SAE Risk and Sustainability Management Officer
just check the electrodes for buildup... if there is build up obviously its going to read a smaller gap.
Leafy wrote:Those of you who run the copper plugs, how often do you change them? I have no problem running $36 worth of spark plugs and only having to re-gap them 3 times a year. I just worried with copper plugs that I'd go through $12 worth of spark plugs every 2-3 months. And do note that I run leaner than most people on here in boost because I like to live life on the edge.
Don't know why you'd have to replace copper more than once a year...I sure don't, save for pure racing applications. What leads you to believe that copper would be that short-lived?
Bill Hahn Jr.
Hahn RaceCraft
World's Quickest and Fastest Street J-Bodies
Turbocharging GM FWD's since 1988
www.turbosystem.com
Bill Hahn Jr. wrote:Leafy wrote:Those of you who run the copper plugs, how often do you change them? I have no problem running $36 worth of spark plugs and only having to re-gap them 3 times a year. I just worried with copper plugs that I'd go through $12 worth of spark plugs every 2-3 months. And do note that I run leaner than most people on here in boost because I like to live life on the edge.
Don't know why you'd have to replace copper more than once a year...I sure don't, save for pure racing applications. What leads you to believe that copper would be that short-lived?
Every copper plug I've run into has had noticeable electrode erosion in a year and needed to be regapped at least once a year. Of course that is was wasted spark so the wear rate is higher (but we're wasted spark too). I cant imagine how much worse it would be in a boosted setup. Now all this aside if I was making a race only vehicle I would run copper plugs and change them at an interval of events determined by how serious I was about being competitive. Like the E-stock miata guys who run over long plugs that practically touch the pistons to gain that extra 0.1 hp they get from the tiny compression bump and change their plugs after every auto-x event.
1994 Saturn SL2 Home Coming Edition: backup car
2002 Chevy Cavalier LS Sport Coupe: In a Junk Yard
1995 Mazda Miata R-package Class=STR
Sponsored by:
Kronos Performance
WPI Class of '12 Mechanical Engineering
WPI SAE Risk and Sustainability Management Officer
I'd like to back up your experience, but I can't. For us and our customers, copper plugs do not erode significantly in one year...they are designed for a useful service life of up to 30,000 miles. We typically will replace them once a year, and if a car is showing any signs of misbehaving (perhaps some tuning woes have loaded them up, etc), then out they go for a fresh set, for it's cheap and easy trouble shooting.
As I've mentioned earlier, we just don't enjoy the results we've seen with the precious metal plugs on boosted cars. As we don't run plugs for the extended service life that the precious metal plugs enable, that capability siimply becomes a moot point. They don't perform any better than (and we firmly believe that in many cases, they don't even perform as well as) copper. Perhaps we've just seen it too many times, but I can't even tell you how many of our customers who we've put a smile on their face as they ditch the iridiums, platinums, etc. for a good old set of copper, and in doing so cure a plethora of high-RPM misfires, P0300 codes, and just generally snotty running, especially on cars that have had boost added. However, even the factory boosted cars improve when we swap out the precious metal for copper.
The actual lower cost? Simply an additional benefit. I'm not saying you are all fools for spending the extra money, but I do know that the spark plug companies have gotten really good at finding ways to encourage you to part with more dollars than you have to.
Bill Hahn Jr.
Hahn RaceCraft
World's Quickest and Fastest Street J-Bodies
Turbocharging GM FWD's since 1988
www.turbosystem.com
iridium $840/troy oz
copper $4.40/lb
id bet thats where a lot of the pricing comes from.
After reading what I posted, I'd like to make a clarification:
In most instances for our customers where we've suggested copper plugs to replace platinum plugs, the platinum plugs in question are the factory OEM items, either the original ones with the car, or a replacement set. That comprises the bulk of our experience, and I will readily admit that, primarily due to our preference for copper plugs, we don't have as much experience with the higher-end aftermarket replacements like Iridium. I do not wish to cast doubt on anyone's positive experience with Iridium product, or infer that they are a "bad" choice.
As for me, I tend to view spark plugs as a consumable item, much like tires, brake pads, oil etc. Some of my more ambitious racing projects eat them like candy, for I am known for being a conservative tuner who likes to sneak up on power from the "safe" side, and this can be hard on spark plugs...not via erosion, but via simple carbon fouling, which affects all plugs, be they copper or precious metal. I also have a penchant for having one super-clean set for racing, and another for warming the machine up. Like most racers, I have spark plugs in various states all over the place, lol!
As for street cars, since I do not expect to use a set for more than a year or so, I don't see much need to use ones that are capable of going for many years. So, back to personal preference. Freedom of choice is what drives a consumer market, so buy what you like!
Edited 3 time(s). Last edited Monday, January 31, 2011 2:31 PM
Bill Hahn Jr.
Hahn RaceCraft
World's Quickest and Fastest Street J-Bodies
Turbocharging GM FWD's since 1988
www.turbosystem.com
GM uses:
LNF: 41-108 -Ac Delco [Iridium]
LSJ: 41-106 -Ac Delco [Iridium]
Saab 9-3 41-835 -Ac Delco [Platinum]
Saab 9-5 (European Ecotec/Ecopower) Ac-Delco 41-602 [Copper] or Ac-Delco 41-801 [Platinum]
It is safe to say you can use all three materials on boosted applications, it is a matter of preference and what works for you.
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-----The orginal Mr.Goodwrench on the JBO since 11/99-----
Does that saab 9-5 copper plug directly match ours?
1994 Saturn SL2 Home Coming Edition: backup car
2002 Chevy Cavalier LS Sport Coupe: In a Junk Yard
1995 Mazda Miata R-package Class=STR
Sponsored by:
Kronos Performance
WPI Class of '12 Mechanical Engineering
WPI SAE Risk and Sustainability Management Officer
Bill Hahn Jr. wrote:After reading what I posted, I'd like to make a clarification:
In most instances for our customers where we've suggested copper plugs to replace platinum plugs, the platinum plugs in question are the factory OEM items, either the original ones with the car, or a replacement set. That comprises the bulk of our experience, and I will readily admit that, primarily due to our preference for copper plugs, we don't have as much experience with the higher-end aftermarket replacements like Iridium. I do not wish to cast doubt on anyone's positive experience with Iridium product, or infer that they are a "bad" choice.
As for me, I tend to view spark plugs as a consumable item, much like tires, brake pads, oil etc. Some of my more ambitious racing projects eat them like candy, for I am known for being a conservative tuner who likes to sneak up on power from the "safe" side, and this can be hard on spark plugs...not via erosion, but via simple carbon fouling, which affects all plugs, be they copper or precious metal. I also have a penchant for having one super-clean set for racing, and another for warming the machine up. Like most racers, I have spark plugs in various states all over the place, lol!
As for street cars, since I do not expect to use a set for more than a year or so, I don't see much need to use ones that are capable of going for many years. So, back to personal preference. Freedom of choice is what drives a consumer market, so buy what you like!
exactly, your experence is based on high boost or racing applications. slocav is towards a dd or everyday driver with playing at the track secondary. i bought and sold back to him the turbo setup that he us using. based off my experence of that exact kit the car seem to run smoother and more responsive with the long life irriduim ngk on step colder plugs compared to the champion copper srt-4 plugs he sent with the kit. to me smoother running means better performance. so thats what i suggested with it. i can understand that he has dropped a lot of money into the car so, yeah $9 a plug would be on the expensive side. when i bought them they were only $7 a plug. kinda wish i would have bought him a set when he stopped by. but i guess builtnboosted and hahn will always but heads.
MRThompson (jrthompson) wrote:but i guess builtnboosted and hahn will always but heads.
Yes, but now we do it in a gentlemanly fashion, just to confuse people
To all: Careful on the Saab stuff, be sure it is the correct taper seat and long reach, not like the plug posted earlier in this thread that was a washer-seal and short reach. LSJ and certain Saabs use this style plug, and it is NOT compatible with L61 or LE5.
Bill Hahn Jr.
Hahn RaceCraft
World's Quickest and Fastest Street J-Bodies
Turbocharging GM FWD's since 1988
www.turbosystem.com
