m62 ld9 build!! - Page 4 - Boost Forum

Forum Post / Reply
You must log in before you can post or reply to messages.
Re: m62 ld9 build!!
Friday, September 06, 2013 3:02 PM
-Z Yaaaa- wrote:

and what is this safety aspect you keep chewing on? are you worried the blower is going to spit its guts out or something? show me an m45 that has done it on a j-body being overspun and ill believe its dangerous. irresponsible to advise others to over spin? how exactly? are there any proven results that overspinning it decreases its liftspan? are there any proven results that show any negative effects by over spinning the m45? i certainly havent seen a one, but i could wrong. if you simply show me why its dangerous and irresponsible i could begin the path to recovery. just show me the proof and ill be on my way.


One aspect for me it's simply bearing life... and tolerances over age. It's kind of like knowing that I can run a stock LD9 to 7000 rpm but the risk of valve float and / or oil cavitation with the pump is pretty high, especially as the parts age. I sure could run it to that line for a long time until something fails catastrophically but I may be shortening the overall life of the engine doing this. Also you'll be shortening the intervals for changing the oil in the unit - or at least I'd want to change it a lot more often if I did this to the S/C.

The other aspect of "safety" lies in the heat created when efficiency drops very low. Obviously since you're the prime heat-fighting hero on the .org you know all about this but should a meth kit fail the heat from the air coming out of that unit at 19,000 would cause a catastrophic failure in the engine itself - either due to combustion heat melting parts such as pistons/rings or pre-ignition itself.

Going back to my T25 turbo reference I could run the thing to 25 psi, spin the living crap out of it and fight all the heat it makes with meth and intercooling and liquid nitrogen and prayers... or I could simply do the easier alternative and take it off the engine, accept that it's beyond its limit for my needs and put a bigger unit on. Like a GT35r.

The crazy thing is that the human eye cannot see 19,000 rpm... that's damn bloody fast for something to be spinning, especially when the manufacturer didn't really intend for it. They'll obviously over-build their units and 8 out of 10 superchargers might be able to handle that for a long period of time but my luck is I got the Friday at 4:45 pm supercharger that had a tiny issue with it that 19,000 rpm turns into a big issue. Who knows - right?

Remember I've imploded a 100% custom fully built engine. I'm a cautious guy now... haha.


Regarding your IAT's Brad - where in the charger are you getting that reading? (Exactly)... any chance you can spot me a picture?


Regarding porting - I've never really had the opportunity to play with a GMSC M45 with nobody around and really give it a good look-see... how smooth are the runners? You definitely want to smooth the openings on the supercharger and match everything up... Steigmiers porting HAS to do something because I've seen a unit make 9 PSI and be sent away for porting and come back making 6 psi and clearly more power (cfm) at that level. Perhaps they are being cautious since it's a 1 piece nightmare unit for porting?


And for the record I don't think your entire concept is find out what will kill the supercharger in RPM's and dial it back .01% and go for broke... I just didn't love the "people have been doing it for a long time" comment. People have been doing stupid things for a very very long time but that doesn't mean they're the right things to do. I watched my neighbour hand his 3 year old a firecracker a month ago so he could hold it while it lit off into the sky... lots of people have done it with no repercussion. Lots of people have lost fingers and hands, too.

If I sat down and looked at the flow chart on an M45 and saw that there was still air to be had and efficiency to spare at the 19000 rpm mark I'd be the first to say "Wow GM went real cautious with that setup - we need smaller pullies!"... but thats not what the data shows. Looking at the map for that TVS I'd feel REAL safe taking it to 19000 rpm if I had a honda capable of a very high RPM redline because while the map stops the efficiency is STILL there and it shows - all the data is there.

When I viewed the data on the G-Lader, read the compressor map and saw that it's very very detrimental to take the unit too far past its 14,000 rpm redline I settled on the pulley size I needed to keep it safe. Unlike with the Eaton Blowers the displacer on the G-lader is made of magnesium and it cracks under the heat generated at that RPM... after just a little while these cracks turn catastrophic and the unit literally implodes. That's not worth 2 extra PSI to me... esp with the rarity and cost of these damn units.

I actually toyed with slapping it on Sweetness and Twin Charging the car but again all the data I looked at showed it cannot flow enough CFM once the turbocharger takes over and it will actually hinder me badly. Pity, it would have been a lot of fun to do.


I believe in the data of an engineer giving me a solid foundation and guideline to make informed choices regarding modding. A Flowbenched head will cost less and be more accurate in letting me know what cam(s) to go with in a given engine than buying and installing different cams to "see how they do". The proper data will quickly show me the limitations of my hardware and let me choose a cam or cam combination that will compliment it properly rather than hold it back or be too aggressive for it. Why guess when I can work it out ahead of time?

This hobby is expensive enough without "trying stuff out"... if I had a pile of parts stocked up and time to burn the sure maybe I'd do that but when it comes to buying parts or putting an engine/compressor combination together I'd rather do it the smart way and save my money at the cost of a bit of brain pain and some time.

(p.s - why dick around anymore with that M45? I thought you had a prototype M62 setup from GM with separate manfiold?)

-Chris-



-Sweetness-
-Turbocharged-
Slowly but surely may some day win this race...

Re: m62 ld9 build!!
Friday, September 06, 2013 9:59 PM
because the m45 is the underdog and i will not stop until im the king of the hill with it lol plus i absolutely love how loud it screams. you could hear mine from a long ass ways away. got many compliments on that alone. plus i like how the m45 kit has an oem flare to it and uses o-rings on the intake flange as well as tb flange. the m45 kit is something more suited to my style, OEM fit and finish if you will. the m62 setup is a raw, completely custom setup that definitely has the look of such. not that its a bad thing, and after i do my touches to it im sure ill be happy but its just, idk.. hard to explain. im just weird like that, well.. you know.

a tvs 1320 is cool yes but very expensive and by the time you fab up a kit to make it work you might as well just go turbo. i "MAY" be able to work one onto the technic manifold for a future endeavor but we'll see.

as far as the m45 iat i dont quite understand how you... after all these years dont know where the sensor goes on the m45 lol. it goes down into the lower part of the manifold, directly INTO the path of boosted air. gm did this so their new "conservative" (pussy) iat table could pull timing if it got too hot. i toyed with the idea of moving it out of there so it wouldnt kill timing but in the end i decided against it and just adjusted the table with hp tuners. didnt really need to though as on meth/water it never even got to the part of the table temp wise to even pull any timing under wot.

it definitely reads the boosted air. i watched the IAT's on my interceptor obd-2 gauge rise and fall. i was always watching that thing.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edited Friday, September 06, 2013 10:14 PM


RIP silver car. You will be missed.
Re: m62 ld9 build!!
Saturday, September 07, 2013 7:51 AM
Those maps do have a place but after that there pointless in my opion due to veribals of modifications but your right there a very good starting point but im also alot like brad i love to push @!#$ to its limit and i love the under dog factor big time thats why i love the idea of a built stockish looking j body because NOBODY expects to get there ass raped by a "girls car" not saying i think its a girls car but thats what others tend to say cuz there not as cool as we all are !!!! And btw i just picked up a 96 camaro ima lsx swap so now i got teo toys =D


I Love My J ♡
Re: m62 ld9 build!!
Saturday, September 07, 2013 9:57 AM
I can see some serious time has been wasted here.

Good luck with the rest of your build.

-Chris-



-Sweetness-
-Turbocharged-
Slowly but surely may some day win this race...
Re: m62 ld9 build!!
Saturday, September 07, 2013 12:06 PM
Hahaha Chris.



Re: m62 ld9 build!!
Sunday, September 08, 2013 10:56 AM
Chris.





Re: m62 ld9 build!!
Sunday, September 08, 2013 11:26 AM
foIm sorry you feel that way chris but they have provided me with alot of useful info u didnt have before but a chart of factory blower cfm and delta t etc only tells me a starting point so i can assume a spot i feel i wanna start at and then go from there it doesnt tell me how a ported and polished blower with lightend rotors better coating and cooling mods will flow so thats all im saying but thsnks for all the info it did help even tho you might think i ignored it i didnt i just only see it useful for a starting point and then i can go from there


I Love My J ♡
Re: m62 ld9 build!!
Sunday, September 08, 2013 12:45 PM
so today i found myself thinking about this venom cooler and how it works. i can only deduct that it is some type of pipe with a heat sink or something around it that goes inside the snout. the oil then circulates around it and this pipe has coolant running through it and the heat transfers from the oil to the coolant. they say to route the venom cooler lines in with your heat exchanger lines. well, i dont see how that would work. wouldnt you want a SECOND and more importantly SEPARATE heat exchanger for maximum benefits? one (snout oil) or the other (boosted air) would certainly heat it up if combined.... thoughts?

now... why cant we just make some type of actual supercharger oil cooler instead of this venom cooler? seems to me it would work the same if not even better. just run a regular engine oil type cooler and fab up some type of sump inside the snout area. then obviously you would need an electric pump to circulate it all. thoughts?

it would be best to have a gauge set-up tapped into the snout so you could see real world changes on the sc oil during testing phases. this way you could adjust the electric pump to either speed up or slow down the flow so it reaches maximum heat transfer. otherwise who knows how much you'd be giving up, it could be going too fast and not absorbing jack @!#$, or it could be flowing to slowly and heat soaking it too quickly. thoughts?


Edited 1 time(s). Last edited Sunday, September 08, 2013 12:48 PM


RIP silver car. You will be missed.
Re: m62 ld9 build!!
Sunday, September 08, 2013 1:37 PM
Didnt think of that but i agree brad i think it wojld work way better to have two different coolers cut a part of snout out on bottom and build a sump like a oil pan with a feed line off bottom of it with a small electric pump running threw a oil cooler and then back into the snout via a threaded port up higher on the side of snout not only would just that help cool it down vastly but the sump would make more area for oil witch would take longer to get heat soaked as well thats a very good idea my friend and way cheaper than the venom cooler!


I Love My J ♡
Re: m62 ld9 build!!
Sunday, September 08, 2013 1:45 PM
this is all the data im able to find on the venom cooler as pertaining to its actual form and function:

Steigemeier wrote:

"The coolant from the heat exchanger on the cold side is directed through the front drive casting - not associated to the oil reservoir - then said cool water moves front to rear contained by a made cavity heli-arced into position. Water then exits on the return side of your aftercooler to be re-cooled and recirculated.
Blowers with shorter drives use a second patent pending design that circulates water in a 360 degree arrangement.
Thank you"


how the hell does this "made cavity" get past the snout bearings? the snout drive and bearings are all pressed into the casting. i have absolutely no idea how they do this. it is quite perplexing to say the least.



RIP silver car. You will be missed.
Re: m62 ld9 build!!
Sunday, September 08, 2013 1:55 PM
next thing ive been reading about is this thing called the "super chiller". what it does it use the factory ac system to chill down the heat exchanger. but, its very spendy at $900 dollars AND i do not know if they make a universal kit. ive seen kits for the new ZL1 and caddy cts'v so they use the same gm connections and such as we do. but, for an m45 it wont work as there is no heat exchanger lol. for my m62 however... it would work very nicely. im on the hunt for 20 degree iat's under boost lol. the zl1 and cts-v crowds have been reporting very cold iats without the use of meth injection. 25-35* in fact. not during boost pulls though, as the compressor shuts off at WOT. however, there is an electric pump upgrade you can get that will stay on all the time.



RIP silver car. You will be missed.

Re: m62 ld9 build!!
Sunday, September 08, 2013 2:00 PM
Wtf? I would love to see pictures of that i cant visulize what they are getting at there?? I think your idea is way better to actuly cool the oil it self seems it would be most efficient other than building some sort of passage threw the snout casting. Seems like thats just alot of work when cooling the oil it self seems like the better option


I Love My J ♡
Re: m62 ld9 build!!
Sunday, September 08, 2013 2:12 PM
cody nobbs wrote:

foIm sorry you feel that way chris but they have provided me with alot of useful info u didnt have before but a chart of factory blower cfm and delta t etc only tells me a starting point so i can assume a spot i feel i wanna start at and then go from there it doesnt tell me how a ported and polished blower with lightend rotors better coating and cooling mods will flow so thats all im saying but thsnks for all the info it did help even tho you might think i ignored it i didnt i just only see it useful for a starting point and then i can go from there


Im going to be blunt here for a minute and please dont take this the wrong way. All of that stuff is a bull@!#$ waste of money. Id rather run a proper sized blower and a heat exchanger than spend the same amount of money on meth and gimmicky coatings and porting.

Look up the Law of Dimishing returns. IMO you should run a properly sized blower and should only use all of the extra stuff (meth, lightening) should only be used once you have absolutely maxed out your blower capabilities, which is where Brad has taken the M45 (and why I wont argue with his methods and theories to a point).

If youre looking to build a completely custom manifold and do all of the work, then why not just pick a properly sized blower from the start.



Re: m62 ld9 build!!
Sunday, September 08, 2013 2:25 PM
lol in the end why not just turbo?

brian i know your post was aimmed towards nobby but i feel as though (since im bored as sin here at work) that i need to chime in.

law of diminishing return? i lol @ that. were modding cavaliers here.

meth/water injection is NOT just for cooling. i dont know of any other way to say this. ive said it 45 ways and it just never gets through. its not a waste of money. in fact, it can produce results on any boosted car. people just need to stop being closed minded and use their imagination. better fuel. cooler air. more power. how is that not worth it? meth should be used on a STOCK m45 for crist sakes LOL it has no heat exchanger option.

gimmicky coatings? lol these coatings are on the rotors in STOCK form. steigemeier stripped my coating off my rotors for god knows what reason. id like it back, it does help with heat and it DOES produce tighter tolerances resulting in more boost.

with superchargers if there is one thing i have learned it is this... a bunch of little things add up to one big thing. and unfortunately, with these blowers you fall in love with them and want them to be better lol. even if i had a harrop blower id be doing all these "gimmicky" things to it. it makes no nevermind to me.



RIP silver car. You will be missed.
Re: m62 ld9 build!!
Sunday, September 08, 2013 2:49 PM
The Law of Dimishing Returns has nothing to do with what youre working on.

Wikipedia wrote:

The law of diminishing returns (also law of diminishing marginal returns or law of increasing relative cost) states that in all productive processes, adding more of one factor of production, while holding all others constant ("ceteris paribus"), will at some point yield lower per-unit returns.[1]


It really should determine EVERYTHING you do if you want to make your goals as efficiently as possible.

I know meth is just not for cooling and I know how it works. I dont spout my mouth off for no reason. I understand the benefits and negatives and that is why I would rather not use it.

A bunch of little things does add up to one big thing but when all of those small things cost more than just buying a different big thing, whats the point? Cool you spent $2000 to make an older M62 run efficiently with all of this extra bull@!#$, but you could have just bought a properly engineering TVS for less. The TVS will last longer because no matter how much you try to you will NEVER have the time and money that TVS and Eaton has put into R&D to make the blower operate safely and reliably in an certain operating window. But whatever they just designed the damn thing. What do they know.

At the end of the day everyone will do what they want, but when someone comes back with chipped pistons and a toasted motor, I'm not going to be sympathetic.





Re: m62 ld9 build!!
Sunday, September 08, 2013 3:00 PM
Brian wrote:

The Law of Dimishing Returns has nothing to do with what youre working on.

Wikipedia wrote:

The law of diminishing returns (also law of diminishing marginal returns or law of increasing relative cost) states that in all productive processes, adding more of one factor of production, while holding all others constant ("ceteris paribus"), will at some point yield lower per-unit returns.[1]


It really should determine EVERYTHING you do if you want to make your goals as efficiently as possible.

I know meth is just not for cooling and I know how it works. I dont spout my mouth off for no reason. I understand the benefits and negatives and that is why I would rather not use it.

A bunch of little things does add up to one big thing but when all of those small things cost more than just buying a different big thing, whats the point? Cool you spent $2000 to make an older M62 run efficiently with all of this extra bull@!#$, but you could have just bought a properly engineering TVS for less. The TVS will last longer because no matter how much you try to you will NEVER have the time and money that TVS and Eaton has put into R&D to make the blower operate safely and reliably in an certain operating window. But whatever they just designed the damn thing. What do they know.

At the end of the day everyone will do what they want, but when someone comes back with chipped pistons and a toasted motor, I'm not going to be sympathetic.


actually it does, because we are working on cars that have diminishing return. by your standards we should not even be working on these things, period. merely because the returns on modding them are so low and hard. and in some peoples eyes that is certainly the case. for all the money i have spent on my cavaliers i could have EASILY had an 8 second v8 car. EASILY. hell maybe even two LOL

just out of curiosity.. for meth... to which "negatives" do your referr?

you dont much understand the idea of the underdog, do you? again, if your gonna do a tvs why not just go turbo? if its all about getting the best horsepower and maximum gains a turbo is the logical route, is it not? id be much more impressed with a car that did XXX with something everybody shunned and said its worthless than one that 45 people have done without much effort at all. thats the way i have ALWAYS been. obviously that just is not the case for you, which is fine, i am not saying your methods are wrong in any way, just trying to explain why some would rather not just "buy a V8 and be done with it" or just "buy a harrop and be done with it". some people like to earn things, some people like to try harder and feel more acomplished for their goals. its just the way some are.



RIP silver car. You will be missed.
Re: m62 ld9 build!!
Sunday, September 08, 2013 3:26 PM
I dont understand being an underdog? We are on the same forum here hombre. Lets talk about the 6822 posts I have in the general forums. This is literally the only forum I post on. I love the Jbody platform more than I'd like to admit and thats part of the reason why I stay around here evern though I sold me car over a year ago.

I cant stand watching people try something and fail because they obviously dont understand the mechanics of what they're trying to do. I like to teach people and try and help them understand why what theyre doing works and doesnt work. There's nothing more frustrating that trying to help someone and then getting shut down because what youre telling them doesnt work for them.

I understand what youre trying to do and I respect it but not everyone wants to be the underdog or to do something different or wants to have a bunch of money tied up in a volatile setup (which an overspun 20 year old M62 is.)

Nobody here is working with unlimited funds. So why burn money in piles over things that don't work towards your goals? Its nothing to do with working on car A or car B and it never has been and never will be with me. Being different is all fine and dandy but in the end if you never get your project done because you ran out of money what is the point of being different?

I'm sick of getting in pissing matches here. You all have fun. Im out.



Re: m62 ld9 build!!
Sunday, September 08, 2013 3:54 PM
Nobodys trying to piss brain trust me and some ppl just like to do things differently than others. Now does that mean me and brad dont undrrstand that a tvs would be the best option out of the gate for what we want? No we both understand that but anybody can go blow 1500 or more on a tvs and be done but brad LOVES his m45 and likes it because its known to not yeild huge results witch is the underdog factor @!#$ having a j is underdog enough and me i got a m62 for basicly free so if i blow 1000$ on it then well to me thats fine but i have fun doing new things and trying to make a 20 year old m62 do things people say it shouldnt is fun to me espally if i pull it off then what? Ima be happy thats what and brads happy with his m45 but that doesnt mean we dont know there are better options this is just what we wanna do because we like it and think its cool plus when brad gets his dialed in the way he wants and is faster than somebody elses tvs or turbo car then he gets to be proud just like i will be when i milk every inch outta my m62 and run 12s ppl like to do different things and find joy in different stuff we dont find joy in the simple option judt like brad said some ppl like to work harder and actuly achive things others dont by taking the easy road


I Love My J ♡
Re: m62 ld9 build!!
Sunday, September 08, 2013 5:52 PM
So I have clearly taken the easy road with my TVS that j paid "$1500" or more dollars for..? This is news to me.. I have far less into it then my m45 cost. (Around $700.). And I can use the money I'm saving by not dumping into a limited blower.. And use it on other parts of the build. But hey no harm In trying something different.. And I didn't pay close to "$1,500".. They can be had for a fair price.. Why not go with a ford modular blower?
Re: m62 ld9 build!!
Sunday, September 08, 2013 6:29 PM
I thought about a ford m90 but i got what i got lol and i didnt mean nothing bad tword ppl who do do go the easy route @!#$ if i blow all that into my m62 and dont run 12s then ill end up with a tvs but i like playing with stuff so ima play with this m62


I Love My J ♡
Re: m62 ld9 build!!
Sunday, September 08, 2013 8:20 PM
wow



FU Tuning




Re: m62 ld9 build!!
Monday, September 09, 2013 10:54 AM
Wow what?


I Love My J ♡
Forum Post / Reply
You must log in before you can post or reply to messages.

 

Start New Topic Advanced Search