HavBoost - round 2 - Boost Forum

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HavBoost - round 2
Sunday, September 22, 2013 2:20 AM
well, after very careful planning, mocking up, measuring, etc
I couldn't get my damn turbo to fit worth a S###

too many issues, too many compromises, too many items to relocate, loss of air conditioning...

I cut all the turbo stuff loose. I tried using an air/water intercooler from an LSJ and adpating a throttle body straight to it... but in the end, it wouldn't have worked out.

so since I had most of the sc kit already, I just completed it.

LSJ block (no balance shafts)
LSJ head
LSJ blower setup
dual pass endplate
60# injectors
ZZP stage 3 heat exchanger
2.8" pulley

car runs decent, but my wideband crapped on me so I'm picking up a new one this week.

M62 blower courtesy of Tinkles:


CBM M62 adapter to vortec style throttle body (LSx but backwards..)


while mocking things up, I didn't like the nipple on the s/c or on the intake manifold..


so I drilled this one out, and tapped for 1/4" NPT. I also ground off the nub on the M62 housing so it would clear the 03+ fuel rail.


the manifold I drilled out for 1/8" NPT (no pictures, sorry. I threaded a brass D.O.T. pushlok fitting into it, so all my vacuum lines are pushlok now.

more mock up... cleaning up the wiring


the skwirl's carcass looks on while I work on HavBlue


another mock up shot. getting there...


fabbed up the throttle cable adapter


mmm satin black


took off the rad support and decided to weld a battery tray to it. that way, if I ever want to move the battery to the trunk, I can easily grind off the old tray and not damage the body.


I didn't take many pictures of the process... the basic square frame to support the battery I already made a few weeks earlier. I used a 2x2 piece of angle and welded that directly to the rad support to give me extra support and a little stand-off from the body of the car.


looking at it from underneath. some extra bracing


when I put it on the car, I wanted to make extra supports so I made one for the rear that bolts on


I then made another support for the front that doubles as the body ground. I then bent up a battery hold-down that bolts in.
the ground wire I'm using here is 100% ecotec stock. the other end goes to the bottom bolt on the a/c compressor and fits perfectly.


close up detail. I have yet to finish the positive side wiring. this is temporary.


a look at the setup




one of my trick modifications... I drilled out the center cone of my air filter to mount the factory IAT sensor




I'm tuning the car using HPT.

I have a racepak IQ3 display dash in the car with an OBD2 module. For some stupid reason, it will not display the stock IAT, knock, and a few other stupid things so I almost sold it.
but what I did instead is I have the factory IAT in the filter.. that is the only IAT the PCM sees.

I have the other IAT sensor (a threaded open-element) in the manifold where the TMAP usually goes. I drilled it out and tapped it for 3/8 NPT.
that IAT (IAT2) goes to my dash so I can see it.

when the IAT2 gets too hot, I'll back off on the throttle and let the post blower temps cool down.

I'm also using the factory 1 bar MAP sensor for timing.
I'm using my 100 and 105 kpa columns in the ignition timing as my "boost timing".

I have a GM 3 bar map sensor as my 'boost sensor' that again, runs directly to my racepak gauges and is displayed on my dash.

the car has been running great. my innovate wideband took a dump AGAIN, so I'm getting a racepak wideband this week.
I threw a lot of extra fuel at the car based on TPS. turned off PE delay and increased my VE offset to 70%

it was running like a monster. I had 19 degrees total timing up top.
I installed the ZZP phenolic spacer the other day, and now I'm seeing all kinds of issues with knock and just general lack of power.

i pulled the timing back some and am taking it easy until I can get some actual AFR numbers.
I'm on one step colder copper NGKs gapped to 0.032"

the car is still a work in progress. I've been massaging the wiring harness to better fit the new layout.
wiring is simple, but it takes a lot of time.

pre phenolic spacer
boost was hitting 19psi/ 20psi at 7000rpm
cruising IAT2 was 120F-125F
after a short pull, would often spike to 140F-160F and take a very long time to recover
when I practiced launching the car from a stand still with 115F IAT2, and staying on it until half way thru 4th, the IAT2 spiked to 180F.

after phenolic spacer
boost is about 16psi now
cruising IAT2 is around 100F
after a short pull, IAT2 spikes to around 130 but recovers much better
I have not drag launched yet because now the car is running like ka-ka.

but, my IAT2 temps are much better. still hot, but better.






Re: HavBoost - round 2
Sunday, September 22, 2013 6:38 AM
Our iats seem way to hot for this setup.

I do not understand why you don't have iat1 in the same location as iat2 so the ECU sees real airs, and let iat2 be in the filter (that was retry smart idea).

Also why 70% ve offset?

You can user he injector pulse. Width multiplier to add fuel I. Boost and keep the offset stock. I have found if the fuel system is up to the task no offset or multiplier is needed.



FU Tuning



Re: HavBoost - round 2
Sunday, September 22, 2013 7:08 AM
Would you be willing to replicate that tb cable bracket?

Also good to know about the tuning Meth...

Must feel nice to have some boost hey!?

Edited 1 time(s). Last edited Sunday, September 22, 2013 7:09 AM
Re: HavBoost - round 2
Sunday, September 22, 2013 3:48 PM
so as far as part set ups, we're almost identical. Except Ill have a ported M62 and you have larger injectors.
I had the phenolic spacers but they were more of a pain than they were worth...trouble getting a proper belt to fit as the stg 2 was too small and the stg 1 was too big. Though that was pre-ZZP adjustable tensioner bracket and over sized pulley, so maybe it'd all fit properly now...? I had both too, manifold to head, blower to manifold.

That battery setup is neat, but I think I might still just go ahead and put it in the trunk with the meth. "hey can you jump my car?" "yeah man no problem, let me remove my bumper really quick" haha

and for the LS1 throttle cable bracket, I ended up using the stock one but cut 90% of it away...then I think I used the lower tb adapter bolt hole to hold it on.

looking great though, I love seeing anything you do because its basically '@!#$ it, im doing it' and you get it done!


04 Cav. 2dr. 5spd. My DD. 'Nuff said.
Re: HavBoost - round 2
Sunday, September 22, 2013 9:56 PM
Addicted to meth wrote:

Our iats seem way to hot for this setup.

I do not understand why you don't have iat1 in the same location as iat2 so the ECU sees real airs, and let iat2 be in the filter (that was retry smart idea).

Also why 70% ve offset?

You can user he injector pulse. Width multiplier to add fuel I. Boost and keep the offset stock. I have found if the fuel system is up to the task no offset or multiplier is needed.


because for whatever reason, the racepak OBD2 interface will not display the IAT value monitored by the PCM. I don't feel comfortable not knowing that number.
also, I don't want the PCM pulling ignition timing all the time. As long as I can visually see the number, then I can consciously go easy on the car until they come back down.

also, why the hell would both IATs in the same spot make any sense? you want to see how efficient the intercooling is, you need one pre and another post blower. again, I need to consciously keep track of my IAT2 temps, but if I give that value to the PCM, i cannot see it on the dash, and it will be pulling timing pretty much all the time. It's an unfortunate side effect of the racepak OBD2 module

maybe you could better explain to me how the Injector Pulsewidth multiplier works for boost when it references vaccuum? I'm not using a 2.5 bar fake, and I will not be switching to one as it causes other errors not tunable with the tables I can see via HPT.

70% VE offset because I threw fuel at the car in order to get it stable until I can get a replacement wideband. My innovate took a dump on me.

pretty sure I explained all of this already tho in my first post.




Re: HavBoost - round 2
Monday, September 23, 2013 5:17 AM
Quote:

also, why the hell would both IATs in the same spot make any sense?


I never meant to have both in the same spot, but switch them. Sucks the RACEPAK wont display the ECU sensor.

Quote:

maybe you could better explain to me how the Injector Pulsewidth multiplier works for boost when it references vaccuum? I'm not using a 2.5 bar fake, and I will not be switching to one as it causes other errors not tunable with the tables I can see via HPT


I'm with you on not using a 2.5 map sensor, it is not worth it on the factory OS.

As for the pulse width multiplier. It reads in KPA, left side starts at 95 and goes all the way down to 0. 0 would be the same as WOT on a N?A car meaning zero vacuum.

Most of the time we put this whole table at 1.000 which would can still do. but in the 0 table increase this to 1.400, or whatever you need to get the bulk of your fuel. You can even start at the 10, and 5 ramping it up some as boost would already be building at this time.

You will still use your VE tables for fine tuning.

I have used this table on a few M62 cars setup like yours and it works well. Your basically increasing the pulse width



FU Tuning



Re: HavBoost - round 2
Monday, September 23, 2013 9:14 AM
For whatever reason I'm unable to upload the video but I can tell you that when I went to the track (before meth injection) my IAT's were hovering around 150 the whole time; even at night when it was cool. Not running a dual pass endplate but everything else is the same cooling wise. I was running a 3.1 pulley too.



"In Oldskool we trust"
Re: HavBoost - round 2
Tuesday, September 24, 2013 12:20 AM
Addicted to meth wrote:

As for the pulse width multiplier. It reads in KPA, left side starts at 95 and goes all the way down to 0. 0 would be the same as WOT on a N?A car meaning zero vacuum.

Most of the time we put this whole table at 1.000 which would can still do. but in the 0 table increase this to 1.400, or whatever you need to get the bulk of your fuel. You can even start at the 10, and 5 ramping it up some as boost would already be building at this time.

You will still use your VE tables for fine tuning.

I have used this table on a few M62 cars setup like yours and it works well. Your basically increasing the pulse width


that's actually not a bad idea. I'd just be a bit worried about the transition from atmospheric to boost since I can get partial throttle to hover at zero. I have that table set to all 1.00 like you mentioned. I may mess with the multiplier when I get the wideband on the car (picking one up tomorrow)

Y3llowCav wrote:

For whatever reason I'm unable to upload the video but I can tell you that when I went to the track (before meth injection) my IAT's were hovering around 150 the whole time; even at night when it was cool. Not running a dual pass endplate but everything else is the same cooling wise. I was running a 3.1 pulley too.


with the phenolic spacer, my cruising IATs have gone way down. it was around 70 degrees out today, and my IAT2 temps hang out around 100-115F. After a pull, it'll peak around 160 but recovers pretty well.
at night, when ambient is down in the 50s, IAT2 was actually 85-90F. After a pull, spike to around 135 then come back down fairly quick. I'm happy with my temps for now.

this car in the summer would be a nightmare though.... meth injection is going to be absolutely necessary in the summer months.


I'm already looking at upgraded supercharger options... the TVS being one of them, and a custom whipple setup is also floating around in my head now... it'd be slightly larger than the TVS, and hopefully make 350whp easiliy (putting me at the original WHP goal I intended with a turbo)

whipples are expensive, but twin screw superchargers are superior to twin vortices.





Re: HavBoost - round 2
Tuesday, September 24, 2013 4:11 AM
Indeed, manguson makes a nice piece too it does really blow in the summer but man on these cool nights she runs like a champ. I'm still confused on which spacer you have since zzp makes both. you're using the manifold to blower spacer? My cruising temps are the same but tthe difference is a lack of actual "cruising" in Boston. It does take me a while to recover from a hard pull too.



"In Oldskool we trust"
Re: HavBoost - round 2
Tuesday, September 24, 2013 4:19 AM
ZZP only makes the head to intake manifold spacer I believe
Re: HavBoost - round 2
Tuesday, September 24, 2013 8:48 AM
I used the IPW multipliers when my FPR @!#$ and wouldn't modulate. I re-tuned and ran with it at a static pressure but without the IPW multipliers being adjusted my VE table numbers would out stretch the natural range it will allow. The IPW multipliers let me set my offset so I could hit the minimum demand of the table, then I just bumped up the multiplier near WOT to drop my numbers on the high end of the table. Beyond having to adjust for the table range, the multiplier is just another way to do the same thing. You're going to end up with the same IPW's, but your table wont appear so extreme.




Re: HavBoost - round 2
Tuesday, September 24, 2013 9:03 AM
Philly D wrote:

ZZP only makes the head to intake manifold spacer I believe

http://shop.zzperformance.com/store/p/471-LSJ-M62-Spacer-Plate.aspx



"In Oldskool we trust"
Re: HavBoost - round 2
Tuesday, September 24, 2013 2:46 PM
Yes that's a spacer, but it's not a phenolic spacer like what OEM sold.



Re: HavBoost - round 2
Tuesday, September 24, 2013 7:51 PM
i still cant believe the phenolic spacer dropped the IAT2's down THAT much. that is beyond incredible. i always wanted to try one on my m45 but it would have required some port matching etc and idk, the idea of losing the o-ring seal to the head did not bode well for my tastes.

how the hell did you LOSE boost with the spacer, though? and i dont understand why all of a sudden it would be knocking after the installation of the spacer...

off meth i would see over 200* IAT2's under wot and recovery sucked balls. on meth, all the way down to mid 80* wot IAT2's and recovery was excellent. i never even got to try out my cry02 stuff, either.... lol





RIP silver car. You will be missed.
Re: HavBoost - round 2
Tuesday, September 24, 2013 9:47 PM
Brad, you lose boost because the air is compressed in the intake manifold, not the blower. The blower can only move a fixed amount of which whatever pulley you have on it and that fixed amount of air is going into a larger space than before so psi will drop. But CFM will not change.




Re: HavBoost - round 2
Wednesday, September 25, 2013 12:59 PM
maybe Ill put both of my phenolic ones back on...lol


04 Cav. 2dr. 5spd. My DD. 'Nuff said.
Re: HavBoost - round 2
Thursday, September 26, 2013 2:35 AM
yea, just to clarify I only have the phenolic spacer between the head and the intake manifold


it made a HUGE difference.

I also installed the racepak wideband the other day, so I've finally started getting some actual tuning done on the car.

thank god for this cold weather... I've said it before, this car would be a rolling nuclear disaster in the summer.

some shots




hitting the track saturday morning with a friend of mine. results to follow.




Re: HavBoost - round 2
Thursday, September 26, 2013 8:24 AM
I like this whipple charger Idea. I have always wanted to run one of those on my LD9, but turbo in my case was a cheaper route to the power.



Re: HavBoost - round 2
Thursday, September 26, 2013 5:33 PM
Turbo sounds WAY easier at this point! lol

I agree with John though, I'd rather have the PCM see real time IAT temps for tuning (can't you adjust that map?), instead of relying on me to watch it while driving.

I do love the battery relocation. I'm looking at doing something similar to the Chevette.

Poor Squirrel not getting any love!


SPD RCR Z - '02 Z24 420whp
SLO GOAT - '04 GTO 305whp
RACER X - '78 Opel Kadett W41 Swap

Re: HavBoost - round 2
Thursday, September 26, 2013 5:43 PM
Tinkles(KGM) wrote:

Brad, you lose boost because the air is compressed in the intake manifold, not the blower. The blower can only move a fixed amount of which whatever pulley you have on it and that fixed amount of air is going into a larger space than before so psi will drop. But CFM will not change.


how can a 1/4" thick spacer cause that much of a larger space for the boost to fill? thats a big pressure drop for such a teeny spacer.

also, roots blowers do not "compress" the air, they just push more air into the engine than the it can take in on its own, naturally.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edited Thursday, September 26, 2013 5:47 PM


RIP silver car. You will be missed.
Re: HavBoost - round 2
Thursday, September 26, 2013 6:18 PM
-Z Yaaaa- wrote:

Tinkles(KGM) wrote:

Brad, you lose boost because the air is compressed in the intake manifold, not the blower. The blower can only move a fixed amount of which whatever pulley you have on it and that fixed amount of air is going into a larger space than before so psi will drop. But CFM will not change.


how can a 1/4" thick spacer cause that much of a larger space for the boost to fill? thats a big pressure drop for such a teeny spacer.

also, roots blowers do not "compress" the air, they just push more air into the engine than the it can take in on its own, naturally.


Everything you do will lower your boost with a supercharger. I lost 2psi from just intercooling my car and another 2 psi from the exhaust.

Re: HavBoost - round 2
Thursday, September 26, 2013 7:44 PM
but those are major changes in flow. this is a 1/4" spacer.



RIP silver car. You will be missed.
Re: HavBoost - round 2
Thursday, September 26, 2013 7:58 PM
I'm guessing part of it is lower iat temps also. If boost goes down with a heat exchanger then with the phenolic lowering temps from less heat soak the boost will come down as well.



Re: HavBoost - round 2
Thursday, September 26, 2013 8:41 PM
Did you mount any terminals under the hood so you can jump the car or charge the battery if for some reason it dies without having to pull the bumper?




On the inside my car looks like a fighter jet.
Re: HavBoost - round 2
Thursday, September 26, 2013 10:37 PM
-Z Yaaaa- wrote:

also, roots blowers do not "compress" the air, they just push more air into the engine than the it can take in on its own, naturally.


What? The instant your pressure is above ambient air pressure (~100kpa) you have compressed the air. If a roots blower builds 7 PSIG in a 1 cubic foot space, you have ~1.5 cubic feet of air in a 1 cubic foot space. Is that not compressed?



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