EV14 Injectors > Siemens Deka - Boost Forum

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EV14 Injectors > Siemens Deka
Tuesday, December 03, 2013 6:11 AM
Figured I'd put this in the boost section since I don't think too many people run 60s on an NA motor. This thread is about a different style injector that was brought to my attention by Oldskool. I'll copy what was said on the hptuners forum here for you to read:

Injector Selection.....and reasons why:
The stock injectors are a split pattern dual cone spray injector. There is a huge reason for this, since our motors are a 4 valve design. There is an intake runner splitter right in front of the valves. The proper injector will spray right on the back of both valves for maximum fuel atomization and efficiency....just like the factory injectors does.

Not an LSJ head, but same concept here:


basic spray patterns:


Siemens 60lb Deka specs including spray pattern:


Problem here is most people slap in the Siemens 60 and 80 pound Deka injectors, which are a single pattern cone spray. This intake split is about an inch and a half away from the tip of the injector, so this single 26* cone is spraying right on the split before it is even broader than an inch. This is very very bad, as it causes the fuel to lose its atomization and leads to fuel pooling in the intake as well as very inconsistent transient fueling. This single factor right here is why the idle is so poor with these injectors. Many people tell me they got their car to idle great with these injectors, and I simply have to call bull@!#$. No way you can get this style injector to idle as smooth as stock. You can get them to idle OK with no surging, but not perfect.

The injector I chose is a Bosch EV14 injector, part number 0280158123. You have to use an adapter on the nozzle to make it work, but many injector shops have this adapter. They are slightly longer than 60mm(stock length) at 64.5mm, but I had no trouble since the stock fuel rail is at a 45 degree angle. The spray pattern is a split cone 25* just like the factory injector. They flow 60.5lb/hr @43.5psi, and 72.02@58psi which is close to the stock LSJ fuel pressure. Another good point is the minimum linear pulse width is .711ms, compared to the 1.4 for the Siemens 60's. This is HUGE for our tiny motors, since idle is typically around 1.2, and deaccel is .7ish. My idle is as good if not better than factory right now, and transient fueling is very smooth with these.

More info about the injector I went with:
http://www.bosch-motorsport.de/en-US/literature/en-US/Injection_Valve_EV_14_Datasheet_51_en_2775993867.pdf

Pic of this Bosch injector with the adapter that Fuel Injector Connection makes:


After reading this myself, I decided to give Jon a call at Fuel Injector Connection and grab a set for myself. He knew exactly what I needed and shipped them out to me within a few days. Total cost was 271.60 shipped to my door. I know the Siemens Deka are cheaper but believe me, it's worth the money. The beauty of these injectors is that they are stock length; no cups/spacers necessary to make them fit with the l61 rail. Here is an illustration of that:
(Left, Lucas 42 I was previously running; Middle, GMPP 36 from the l61 SC kit; Left, new EV14 60)




As some of you know, I was running into misfire issues that would throw a random misfire code quite frequently. After countless hours trouble shooting and purchases I had it narrowed down to the 42's I was currently running. I found out that those injectors weren't really rated for a pulse width below 2.0ms. Obviously, that creates idle problems since my car tends to idle more about 1.4ms; not to mention that they have the same cone spray pattern of the Siemens Deka injectors. Here's what I was seeing at idle:


Even at 1.8ms, it was misfiring like crazy. Here's an idle shot I took today on my commute to work:



It should be noted that I run my idle at 1100rpm so those running at 900rpm will likely see the 1.2ms mentioned above. I logged misfire the whole drive today and saw literally 0 misfires. I have to say that these injectors idle as smooth as, if not better than stock. I should also mention that I gained 2 highway mpg after the installation of these injectors despite having more weight in the car than before AND hitting more traffic. I can't wait to see what they can do in the summer.

So,

Pros:
-Stock length
-Stupid low pulse width for very smooth idling (.711ms)
-Correct spray pattern (25* Split Stream)
-Possible increased fuel efficiency
-Large flow rate for boosted applications

Cons:
-Minimeter harness plug requires a custom made harness
-Cost, about 80 bucks more than ZZP's Siemen's Deka for the set (maybe less with shipping)

In my opinion these are the way to go for anyone looking to upgrade to bigger injectors. If you're running the LSJ or GMPP 36lb injectors or even the 42# stage 2 LSJ's, you should be fine. For those looking to buy aftermarket 42's, 60's, 70's, I urge you to stay away from the cheaper old technology and give Jon a call at Fuel Injector Connection for some of these EV14's.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edited Tuesday, December 03, 2013 6:11 AM


"In Oldskool we trust"

Re: EV14 Injectors > Siemens Deka
Tuesday, December 03, 2013 7:30 AM
Good info!





Re: EV14 Injectors > Siemens Deka
Tuesday, December 03, 2013 8:03 AM
Now I gotta ditch my 36s
Re: EV14 Injectors > Siemens Deka
Tuesday, December 03, 2013 8:26 AM
Blue Boosted Penguin wrote:

Now I gotta ditch my 36s

RC's?



"In Oldskool we trust"
Re: EV14 Injectors > Siemens Deka
Tuesday, December 03, 2013 11:22 AM
Y3llowCav wrote:

Blue Boosted Penguin wrote:

Now I gotta ditch my 36s

RC's?


No cobalts, my rc are 72 @ 42lbs that's for when I'm fully built
Re: EV14 Injectors > Siemens Deka
Tuesday, December 03, 2013 11:29 AM
You should be ok with those. They will have the correct spray pattern and I'm assuming that the minimum pulse width is well within spec since they're stock pieces for an ecotec motor.



"In Oldskool we trust"
Re: EV14 Injectors > Siemens Deka
Tuesday, December 03, 2013 5:09 PM
Rc's are a 15 degree spray pattern. So they are not correct.

We just went from rc's to ZZP injectors because of similar issues. I have tuned 3-4 j's with ZZP injectors all with good idle and ran great.

I agree this spray pattern is the correct style for our motors.



FU Tuning



Re: EV14 Injectors > Siemens Deka
Tuesday, December 03, 2013 5:15 PM
Addicted to meth wrote:

Rc's are a 15 degree spray pattern. So they are not correct.

We just went from rc's to ZZP injectors because of similar issues. I have tuned 3-4 j's with ZZP injectors all with good idle and ran great.

I agree this spray pattern is the correct style for our motors.


Isnt ZZP's injectors just the Seimens injectors?

What spray pattern did you have to order Yellow? Or if I tell him what I have he should know what to sell me? ( I am going with the same as yours)

Does that come with the harness or parts to make one? If not where do I get those from?
Re: EV14 Injectors > Siemens Deka
Tuesday, December 03, 2013 6:08 PM
This sounds like it could be part of my issue... Hopefully Ryan can chime in and read this...



Re: EV14 Injectors > Siemens Deka
Wednesday, December 04, 2013 5:36 AM
Philly D wrote:

Addicted to meth wrote:

Rc's are a 15 degree spray pattern. So they are not correct.

We just went from rc's to ZZP injectors because of similar issues. I have tuned 3-4 j's with ZZP injectors all with good idle and ran great.

I agree this spray pattern is the correct style for our motors.


Isnt ZZP's injectors just the Seimens injectors?

What spray pattern did you have to order Yellow? Or if I tell him what I have he should know what to sell me? ( I am going with the same as yours)

Does that come with the harness or parts to make one? If not where do I get those from?

ZZP's are the Siemens style. People have varying results of success with them.

After my conversation with Jon he will know exactly what you need in terms of size and spray pattern if you just tell him what you have. Stock spray pattern for the l61 and lsj is 25* split stream.

You can ask about adapters for the harness, he may have something. IIRC racetronix makes the only plug and play adapter that goes from our multec2 plug to ev1 (minimeter) injectors. The advantage there is no cutting of factory wires but they're costly.

Most people, including me, go this route:
ev1/minimeter pigtails

Obviously you just solder them into the stock harness. I hate cutting factory wires but I haven't had any problems with it. Good news is that the injector harness can be disconnected from the main harness so if you mess up you can just grab another from a yard. If you go this route, the pink wire(usually weathered and appears tan) in each injector plug is the ground. Though, I've been told polarity doesn't matter.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edited Wednesday, December 04, 2013 5:39 AM


"In Oldskool we trust"
Re: EV14 Injectors > Siemens Deka
Wednesday, December 04, 2013 7:13 AM
Here's the one you'll need for a plug and play solution:

Multec 2 to Minimeter Adapter

The only reason I didn't go this route is because I didn't know they existed until after I already purchased minimeter pigtails. They may not be too aesthetically pleasing either. As a side note, minimeter is the same clip used on the bosch LSJ intercooler pump.



"In Oldskool we trust"

Re: EV14 Injectors > Siemens Deka
Wednesday, December 04, 2013 4:01 PM
ZZP is a 25 degree single cone spray. Why it is not like stock, it is much better than the 15 degree that the RC's are.

My friend called the company above and they tried to sale him $600 injectors. I do not know who he spoke to, but he decided to go the ZZP way.



FU Tuning



Re: EV14 Injectors > Siemens Deka
Thursday, December 05, 2013 9:01 AM
Addicted to meth wrote:

ZZP is a 25 degree single cone spray. Why it is not like stock, it is much better than the 15 degree that the RC's are.

My friend called the company above and they tried to sale him $600 injectors. I do not know who he spoke to, but he decided to go the ZZP way.


You think from when talking to Ryan, this could be part of my issue? Running some what I believe to be 750cc lucas style injectors right now...



Re: EV14 Injectors > Siemens Deka
Thursday, December 05, 2013 3:54 PM
BuiltNBoosted wrote:

Addicted to meth wrote:

ZZP is a 25 degree single cone spray. Why it is not like stock, it is much better than the 15 degree that the RC's are.

My friend called the company above and they tried to sale him $600 injectors. I do not know who he spoke to, but he decided to go the ZZP way.


You think from when talking to Ryan, this could be part of my issue? Running some what I believe to be 750cc lucas style injectors right now...


honestly what I remember no. I think your issue is in the fuel system.



FU Tuning



Re: EV14 Injectors > Siemens Deka
Thursday, December 05, 2013 5:47 PM
Addicted to meth wrote:

ZZP is a 25 degree single cone spray. Why it is not like stock, it is much better than the 15 degree that the RC's are.

My friend called the company above and they tried to sale him $600 injectors. I do not know who he spoke to, but he decided to go the ZZP way.

You've got to ask for Jon. It may take some time on hold but he knows exactly what you need. Too bad, hopefully they work out for him.



"In Oldskool we trust"
Re: EV14 Injectors > Siemens Deka
Friday, December 06, 2013 4:32 AM
Addicted to meth wrote:

BuiltNBoosted wrote:

Addicted to meth wrote:

ZZP is a 25 degree single cone spray. Why it is not like stock, it is much better than the 15 degree that the RC's are.

My friend called the company above and they tried to sale him $600 injectors. I do not know who he spoke to, but he decided to go the ZZP way.


You think from when talking to Ryan, this could be part of my issue? Running some what I believe to be 750cc lucas style injectors right now...


honestly what I remember no. I think your issue is in the fuel system.


damn, hoped it was injector related... im sure i still need to look into different ones regardless.



Re: EV14 Injectors > Siemens Deka
Saturday, December 21, 2013 4:33 AM
Hmmm.... while I am intrigued with this thread, I'm gonna have to call BS on your BS. Haha. I have the Siemens Deka 80# injectors and my car idles excellent. Especially considering since I'm running 70 psi base fuel pressure and have Comp Cams Turbo grind camshafts and balance shaft delete. BUT I wouldn't be opposed to trying this style injector if they were available in my current flow rate. Good work.




Currently #4 in Ecotec Forced Induction horsepower ratings. 505.8 WHP 414WTQ!!!
Currently 6th quickest Ecotec on the .org -12.453 @ 116.45 MPH!!!

Re: EV14 Injectors > Siemens Deka
Saturday, December 21, 2013 6:55 AM
Oi......so confused as to which way to go....
Re: EV14 Injectors > Siemens Deka
Saturday, December 21, 2013 12:19 PM
Awesome info




Re: EV14 Injectors > Siemens Deka
Saturday, December 21, 2013 6:04 PM
Roofy wrote:

Hmmm.... while I am intrigued with this thread, I'm gonna have to call BS on your BS. Haha. I have the Siemens Deka 80# injectors and my car idles excellent. Especially considering since I'm running 70 psi base fuel pressure and have Comp Cams Turbo grind camshafts and balance shaft delete. BUT I wouldn't be opposed to trying this style injector if they were available in my current flow rate. Good work.

Thanks, I think? Lol

More power to you man. Some people get lucky, some people dont. It may not be a problem for you, but it most definitely was for me. The logs of misfires at idle didn't lie. These DEFINITELY fixed my issues. I get that I wasn't running Siemens 60s or deka 80s but the Siemens 60s I posted above have similar specs.

Philly, I still strongly suggest you go this direction. You will not be disappointed.



"In Oldskool we trust"
Re: EV14 Injectors > Siemens Deka
Saturday, December 21, 2013 6:12 PM
Are these injectors available in 80#?




Currently #4 in Ecotec Forced Induction horsepower ratings. 505.8 WHP 414WTQ!!!
Currently 6th quickest Ecotec on the .org -12.453 @ 116.45 MPH!!!


Re: EV14 Injectors > Siemens Deka
Saturday, December 21, 2013 6:28 PM
Roofy wrote:

Are these injectors available in 80#?

That I do not know. If you call definitely post up and let us know.



"In Oldskool we trust"
Re: EV14 Injectors > Siemens Deka
Friday, January 03, 2014 1:09 PM
I'm going to give them a call and pick up some of the adapters off racetronix's website also.

I'll let you all know how it goes once its all in.



Re: EV14 Injectors > Siemens Deka
Friday, January 03, 2014 5:43 PM
Patrick Coulter wrote:

I'm going to give them a call and pick up some of the adapters off racetronix's website also.

I'll let you all know how it goes once its all in.


Being you have a LD9, I do not see a need for these. I'm not saying it will not serve the same purpose, just LD9's do not seem to have this issue.



FU Tuning



Re: EV14 Injectors > Siemens Deka
Saturday, January 04, 2014 8:15 AM
Just curious does anyone know what the stock spray pattern is for an ld9/quad4?



"In Oldskool we trust"
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