Let's talk about Corn - Boost Forum

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Let's talk about Corn
Friday, October 24, 2014 8:56 AM
I was bored and decided to look into e85 and research it more. I read a few posts on here a while back where everyone seemed to reject the idea of e85 and was afraid of it. Here in MN I\'ve seen more than a few cars on e85 mostly skittles. So e85 flows ~34% more than gasoline. So if we take the stock ecotec injectors (24lb) I think, and drop in 34% larger ones around 32lb (maybe more). Add a bigger fuel pump or inline. And possibly smooth things out with hpt. Shouldn\'t the car run exactly as it did before? correct me if I\'m wrong which I probably am. I\'m just throwin out ideas. Also I don\'t see any part of the stock fuel system that would be a problem except for maybe the intank pump and e85 not playing nicely because e85 is more electrically conductive.

Re: Let's talk about Corn
Friday, October 24, 2014 10:16 AM
bigger injectors and a tune
If the car has high miles youll want to change the fuel filter often for a while (e85 cleans the hell out of the tank).

You\'ll need a tune for the injectors and for PE and closed loop. The oxygen sensor will figure out how to get to lambda 1 at idle and cruise in open loop.

Stock fuel pump will work fine unless its worn out; it\'ll be working harder cause there is more demand (especially with performance builds). Id replace it with something bigger (and something made for e85 just for peace of mind since you\'re doing it ).


I think that covers the basics. I ran 12.8 at 120 on 27psi with it; and the car went like 40k miles on it and no issues from the fuel. The motor was always clean like brand new inside too.





\"A car just isn\'t a car without a little blood, sweat, and beers.\" -- Shadowfire
Re: Let's talk about Corn
Friday, October 24, 2014 10:59 AM
The only reason I was even entertaining the idea is because I have the hahn stage 2 kit but I will be purchasing the portfueler here in a month or two. I would be able to just keep the injectors that come with the stage 2 kit in the primary fuel rail (330cc). Then have the whole thing tuned. With the portfueler I would be able to tune way beyond what\'s needed for me. But would I gain anything extra by going to e85? I mean if you took the same setup and one was on premium and one was on e85, would the e85 produce more power or safer tune?
Re: Let's talk about Corn
Friday, October 24, 2014 1:10 PM
With a proper tune e85 will outperform 93.

Burns cooler and compresses easier. You can run superior timing to 93. However if there is a situation where you could max timing with 93; there isnt really anything to gain with e85 IMO.

Id run it regardless because its safer due to its properties.




\"A car just isn\'t a car without a little blood, sweat, and beers.\" -- Shadowfire
Re: Let's talk about Corn
Friday, October 24, 2014 1:44 PM
My first thought was to up the boost and run 93. But now I\'m thinking with e85 and a good tune at the same boost im running now might satisfy me. the only thing I\'m not sure is that the blends change with the seasons and that would make it kind of difficult on a daily driver. Also I don\'t see why the portfueler couldn\'t be tuned to use e85. But it\'s the stock computer I\'m worried that would have problems. is it just a matter of changing injector pulse width? Or do all the fueling tables need to be changed?
Re: Let's talk about Corn
Saturday, October 25, 2014 11:40 AM
I ran the stock PCM and never had blend issues. Only issue i ever faced was wot in the cold but that was because i was using an MBC. It would go way over the target boost on days where it was 50 or below (it was initially set in 75+ weather). All i needed to do was dial it back to get back to target boost and afr\'s would fall in place. With an EBC i imagine this issue is less of an issue.

Concerning the portfueler I have no input; but i assume it can be tuned to work.

Tuning for e85 for me was basically the same process outlined in the sticky for HPT. Force open loop and then make VE adjustments. You *might* be able to change the constant and get good results without making VE adjustments but that I would call a bad idea. If youre tuning it anyway you might as well tune it properly.

Its a lot less of an ordeal than people think it is. If you close your eyes and pretend its 93; and tune the car the same youll be fine. the stoich afr for e85 is different from 93 BUT the value for both in lambda is 1. if your wideband is calibrated for gas; and its reading 11.6 at WOT under boost for both gas and e85 youre safe. because 11.6 on e85 is still .79 lambda. \"AFR\" is a calculation based on lambda for all fuel. You *can* go a little leaner with e85 because it burns cooler and has a higher octane rating but thats going to differ per application. I was as high as \"12.0\" afr at like 32-34psi and it didnt knock at all with 25* timing.

Its actually quite easy if you just pretend its 93. You just need more fuel to get the same afr.


\"A car just isn\'t a car without a little blood, sweat, and beers.\" -- Shadowfire
Re: Let's talk about Corn
Saturday, October 25, 2014 12:48 PM
E85 has never appealed to me. If I ever need the extra octane I would just run 110. I see that alot of people like it because it is a \"cheap\" high octane fuel, but when you have to fill your car up 2 more times a month is it really \"cheaper\" than 93?




Re: Let's talk about Corn
Saturday, October 25, 2014 1:18 PM
Cooler egt; the cleaning properties of ethanol and the octane are the reasons I used it.

If I drove nice I got upper 20s mpg. And it\'s over $1/gal cheaper than 93 here.

Very very worth it.

110 here is like $8/gal which is backwards if you\'re throwing cost effectiveness around as a factor.

Also its only worth it to use if you\'re looking to use the high octane property of it vs 93; making it really a 110oct vs e85 comparison as both have dramatically more potential than 93.

Plus is smells amazing.




\"A car just isn\'t a car without a little blood, sweat, and beers.\" -- Shadowfire
Re: Let's talk about Corn
Saturday, October 25, 2014 6:26 PM
Thinking about it since it needs 30% more flow. In theory couldn\'t you literally just drop in the bigger injectors and run it? The whole thing with the portfueler is that you don\'t touch the tuning on the stock ecu at all. The PF eic is supposed to take care of the boost side of things while out of boost the motor acts as if it is just stock. So with that being said, maybe I\'m thinking wrong but if you drop in the bigger injectors the only tuning that would need to be done to the ecu would be timing, correct? If lambda applies then the car shouldn\'t care what fuel is in the car as long as the flow is increased to compensate. The rest of the tuning is done through the portfuelers EIC controller which comes with its own software. It seems too simple! And I know it might be unnecessary to run it but that\'s what I like, getting away from the norm.
Re: Let's talk about Corn
Monday, October 27, 2014 12:32 AM
Sorry to double post but I thought it was worth mentioning that researching e85 everyone says it will corrode your fuel system and make rubber fuel lines brittle. So in 2000 the Chevy s-10 had the 2200sfi that was a flex fuel vehicle. So if that thing was a flex fuel vehicle that shared the same engine as the cavalier then wouldn\'t you think that the engine and the fuel system were made of the same materials? I\'m sure they didn\'t make anything special just for the s-10. This leads me to believe that our engine and fuel systems are capable of handing fuel higher than 10%. Just a thought anyway.
Re: Let's talk about Corn
Wednesday, October 29, 2014 10:52 AM
Technically you could probably get close with just 30% larger injectors. I dont recommend doing anything without a tune though. If you plan to tune timing anyway; you would be a fool not to tune the fuel also.

Regarding corrosion: I may not have run it long enough to see any but I ran it for a year on the stock fuel system (re: stock fuel lines. I had larger injectors and pump because my demand was higher). I know a few people who run it in stock fuel system cars that arent \"flex fuel\" and there are no issues (these cars have larger injectors and are tuned though).

Being flex fuel the main differences are going to be in the pump/lines/injectors and the PCM. The PCM has a sensor that it uses to determine what the fuel is that is in the tank and how to adjust for it automaticallly. The engine Itself should be no different at all. If you\'re worried then run some new lines; I wouldnt have but I think I exceeded what the stock system could deliver for the power level so I went to -8 and -6 ptfe stainless.







\"A car just isn\'t a car without a little blood, sweat, and beers.\" -- Shadowfire

Re: Let's talk about Corn
Sunday, November 16, 2014 10:37 AM
Chemically alcohol based fuels (E85 included) contain oxygen molecules. Gasoline regardless of octane doesn't. So even in a stock engine there is a benefit to E85 assuming you tune for it because you're essentially increasing the VE of the engine due to the oxygen contained in the fuel.



Re: Let's talk about Corn
Sunday, November 16, 2014 11:30 AM
Bingo^^^


"A car just isn't a car without a little blood, sweat, and beers." -- Shadowfire
Re: Let's talk about Corn
Sunday, November 16, 2014 2:51 PM
Matt Linke wrote:


Regarding corrosion: I may not have run it long enough to see any but I ran it for a year on the stock fuel system (re: stock fuel lines. I had larger injectors and pump because my demand was higher). I know a few people who run it in stock fuel system cars that arent \"flex fuel\" and there are no issues (these cars have larger injectors and are tuned though).
.


All cars sold in the USA since 1980s were required to have fuel lines, orings, and seals that can handle high ethanol fuels so there is no issues running them on stock fuel set ups. The only issue people have is in high horsepower cars burning up fuel pumps. Racetronics and aeromotive both sell pumps now designed just for e85. This is only in really high horsepower cars that it becomes an issue.




On the inside my car looks like a fighter jet.
Re: Let's talk about Corn
Wednesday, November 19, 2014 7:16 PM
Brian wrote:

Chemically alcohol based fuels (E85 included) contain oxygen molecules. Gasoline regardless of octane doesn't. So even in a stock engine there is a benefit to E85 assuming you tune for it because you're essentially increasing the VE of the engine due to the oxygen contained in the fuel.


DING DING DING! finally!!!! someone else gets it! LOL

same goes for meth...



RIP silver car. You will be missed.
Re: Let's talk about Corn
Wednesday, November 19, 2014 8:33 PM
I'm gonna agree with the others and say not to do it. E85 will erode plastic and rubber components. ie. Tank (if plastic), fuel lines and anything else. Which in turn will cause a black sludge build up which can do a lot of damage to your engine and sometimes cannot be fixed.

Just with knowing that I wouldn't do it. Not to mention 8-9% less mpg.




Re: Let's talk about Corn
Thursday, November 20, 2014 2:05 PM
^^ only issue i ever had was it cleaned the gunk out of the fuel tank and caused me to replace fuel filters every so often. Once that went away; no issues.

Hell i even run it in my mower with 0 problems. Dont ask, I ran out of fuel and had a can of e85 sitting there and NEEDED to cut the grass lol.

Ive seen it used in stock applications with no issues at all. The corrosive property of it is far overexaggerated IMO


"A car just isn't a car without a little blood, sweat, and beers." -- Shadowfire
Re: Let's talk about Corn
Thursday, November 20, 2014 4:19 PM
shanez24 wrote:

I'm gonna agree with the others and say not to do it. E85 will erode plastic and rubber components. ie. Tank (if plastic), fuel lines and anything else. Which in turn will cause a black sludge build up which can do a lot of damage to your engine and sometimes cannot be fixed.

Just with knowing that I wouldn't do it. Not to mention 8-9% less mpg.



Did you even read my most? There is no issue as all cars are designed for it since the 80s. Now the tune will cause issues but everything besides that is capable of it with no issues.




On the inside my car looks like a fighter jet.
Re: Let's talk about Corn
Friday, November 21, 2014 8:57 AM
Quote:

Did you even read my most? There is no issue as all cars are designed for it since the 80s. Now the tune will cause issues but everything besides that is capable of it with no issues.


I think some people choose to be ignorant for the sake of ignorance. I will never get how enthusiasts of any genre are this way. How can you learn when you refuse to accept knowledge/fact that goes against the grain?

I think people who think its a bad fuel for whatever fallacy they were told by someone who told them something from someone that heard it once will never be able to see past that. In this case; more ethanol for me! lol

Close your eyes; pretend its gasoline, tune it the same way to the same "AFR" and you're good to go. Just add more timing and be happy that your power gains are further extended using this fuel than they will be on any form of gasoline (this is excluding racing fuel because I'm not familiar with its properties; cause i never plan to run it).




"A car just isn't a car without a little blood, sweat, and beers." -- Shadowfire
Re: Let's talk about Corn
Saturday, November 29, 2014 4:18 AM
E85 is yummy. I am running it in the Sunflower and expect great results when I get the final tune. I will say that fuel mileage is less with E85 than gas, but even without tuning, my PCM compensates pretty well when it comes to adjusting AFR's. Running around 15% E85 vs around 80% concentration, my idle and part throttle AFR's are VERY close, within a couple tenths of a point. Under boost it does lean out significantly with a higher ethanol concentration, but that is to be expected and will be taken care of with my next tune.

I know some people are jumpy and have an aversion to running E85 due to our PCMs limitations, but if one were to run a consistent concentration percentage that the car is properly tuned for, and given that ethanol burns cooler and has a higher octane rating than 93, I feel it is a very good and viable fuel to use for more power.

As far as tuning, as said above it can be tuned the same as running regular gas, it just requires MORE fuel at any given time, roughly 30% more. As long as the oxygen sensor is reading your desired AFR, whether it is E85 or regular gas is irrelevant. The actual measurement is "lambda". The digits displayed on an AFR gauge are just a calculation based on the conditions of the exhaust reading compared to a Lambda value of 1. Lambda is basically a value for "perfect" stoichiometric AFR, which is 14.7:1 for regular gas and in the 8's for E85. So if a car were to be tuned, for example, to run a 12.5:1 AFR in boost on gasoline, everything else being equal except for running E85, the gauge would read leaner, and the car would run badly, even though the same amount of fuel was being burned. To achieve the same desired gauge reading of 12.5:1, the added fuel would actually make the "true" AFR roughly 9.3:1, since gas and E85 are chemically different.




Currently #4 in Ecotec Forced Induction horsepower ratings. 505.8 WHP 414WTQ!!!
Currently 6th quickest Ecotec on the .org -12.453 @ 116.45 MPH!!!

Re: Let's talk about Corn
Saturday, November 29, 2014 4:36 AM
Continuing on, those who say E85 will dissolve the plastics or rubbers in our fuel systems are foolish. Simply put, the alcohol in E85 will not damage any part in the fuel system of any 3rd gen J body. The water that E85 tends to absorb could though. Along with cleaning up dirt, fuel, and other residues that may be in the fuel system, the fact that ethanol is hygroscopic and absorbs water means that filters should be replaced often, every couple of oil changes or so. Even regular gas nowadays has a roughly 10-15% ethanol blend concentration.




Currently #4 in Ecotec Forced Induction horsepower ratings. 505.8 WHP 414WTQ!!!
Currently 6th quickest Ecotec on the .org -12.453 @ 116.45 MPH!!!


Re: Let's talk about Corn
Saturday, November 29, 2014 9:34 AM
^^^ Roofy is also 100% correct on all things stated.

I found that even with the "winter" and "summer" blends in my setup that the car ran just fine and the AFR's didnt change. The air being cooler with a lower % of ethanol (usually around 60-70% in my area for winter) even the boost afr's were very close. It would lean out a *tad* up top so I just backed the boost off to be safe and ran it rich (it did this on 93 also before i switched, so i think its just a dense air charge because of cold air and alpha-n thing)

Cruise and idle were always perfectly stoich no matter the blend (as long as it was from an e85 pump i mean, i never mixed fuels manually) and regardless of temperature.







"A car just isn't a car without a little blood, sweat, and beers." -- Shadowfire
Re: Let's talk about Corn
Sunday, November 30, 2014 6:03 PM
God, I am so pleased to see more people of our scene willing to run Ethanol.

Roofy, you forgot to mention the most badass portion of your setup... YOUR ETHANOL CONTENT GAUGE!

With a content gauge you can EASILY monitor (in real time) the exact concentration of ethanol running through your lines. What does this help? Well, a lot of the argument surrounding why sooooo many on here are apprehensive towards running it is the fact that the content seems to bounce around and you never truly get the same mix you would. Well, I KNOW that has been greatly exaggerated and is not as big of a deal as most claim. People are constantly testing the mix around here and it does not vary that much. These are people running 600-900hp LSX setups, mind you. Stuff that demands a great tune since a lot are running on the ragged edge, etc. You can check the content easily right at the pump using measurement devices of sorts but damn, a content gauge is so much more badass, lol.

And remember, if you set your original tune to run on EXACTLY E85, your mixture can only go rich thereafter if you get a lower content mix at your local fuel station. Moral of the story, if you're that worried about it, watch the gauge and monitor the content. It really is that simple.

I cannot wait to run it. I was nearly on the verge right before my car burnt. I had the larger injectors, just needed to install them and fill up with E85 but alas, didn't get around to it. I will be on the next car, though.



RIP silver car. You will be missed.
Re: Let's talk about Corn
Tuesday, December 02, 2014 12:17 AM
Yeah Brad I guess I failed to mention that a real time Ethanol gauge helps a lot too.

I know that a lot of the "big name" J body guys are apprehensive about running E85, and some even refuse to, but I don't go strictly by what others say either. If i were to have listened to other's opinions on our platform, I would have believed that over 300+ horsepower is unachievable on our cars with the PCM limitations (Rodimus), our cars will never run right even tuned with HPT (many people years ago), running an intermediate shaft on a Getrag is impossible and pointless (certain people who doubt determination and fabrication skills).

The point is, if we keep trying different things and testing the limits of what is said to be possible with our platform, then we can and will move forward with our "dead" platform. Look at any of the "big name" builds from the past 5 years or so. A decade ago these cars were almost unthinkable and would have blown our minds!






Currently #4 in Ecotec Forced Induction horsepower ratings. 505.8 WHP 414WTQ!!!
Currently 6th quickest Ecotec on the .org -12.453 @ 116.45 MPH!!!

Re: Let's talk about Corn
Wednesday, December 10, 2014 8:49 AM
Exactly! The things I have been working on lately I certainly wasn't even fathoming years ago. I have surprised myself in just about every way, from self teaching myself how to work a Dremel tool to port things I never in a million years would have thought I held the skill to do, to simply coming up with new ideas to help improve what we already have, it just goes to show, with a little ingenuity and drive, we really can accomplish anything. I still have lots to learn... but someday, it will finally all pay off for me and I'll actually get to enjoy these damn things. I keep at it because quite frankly, I refuse to give up. I have had visions for my cars for years and I'll be damned if I cannot see them come to fruition.



RIP silver car. You will be missed.
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