ATTN Turbo Eco Owners, PLEASE READ AND REPLY - Boost Forum

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ATTN Turbo Eco Owners, PLEASE READ AND REPLY
Friday, December 02, 2005 3:25 PM
Hey guys, for the sake of everyone with an ecotec engine who wants boost I wanted to take a poll of sorts.

Since some people have had issues with the eco pulling back injector pulsewidth to achieve 14.7:1 a/f ratio even at WOT, even while running the afpr/big injector/fmu setup, i would like to help determine exactly what years and models have the problem, and which ones don't. It would appear that the 02-03 do not have the issue at all, while the 04+ do.

Basically what I'm asking is if you own a turbo ecotec and have a wideband O2 sensor, or have done a dyno readout with a/f ratio, to post in this thread the following:

Year of Car

Model (Cavalier, Sunfire, base, 1sv, LS, LS Sport....)

Fuel Management Strategy (fuel pressure, injector size, FMU setting, Emanage setting, etc.)

Turbo Size and Max. PSI used

A/F ratio at 3000/4000/5000/6000 rpms (at least a general idea of the overall fuel curve

Again, please only respond if you have a wideband or have dynoed so that the the results are based in solid facts, not "well, it runs really good so i must not be lean".

Clearly, those with Megasquirt or other standalone need not respond as you've bypassed the ecu entirely. However, if you tried using the stock ecu originally and went with megasquirt as a result of the problem mentioned above, please fill out the info as your car was setup pre-standalone.

This thread's purpose is simply for information gathering please try to keep to the task at hand.




Arrival Blue 04 LS Sport
Eco
Turbo
Megasquirt
'Nuff said

Re: ATTN Turbo Eco Owners, PLEASE READ AND REPLY
Friday, December 02, 2005 4:54 PM
I have a 2002 LS Sport Coupe Ecotec Cavalier 5 speed.

I have an 03 motor with my original 02 fuel rail, ecu, harness.

I am running SAAB 9-3t injectors (370cc I believe) and a vortech FMU with an 8:1 plate.

My turbo is the mitsu TD04 of the saab 9-3t. I run 6psi daily. I wanted to run more but cant get the afr right.

When I set the boost to 10psi I get an afr ranging from 14.5-15.5
I have not yet replaced my stock fuel pump. I got my upgrade in the mail today so that will go on soon.

I have the Innovate LM-1 wideband unit. I have interfaced it with my laptop as well.

Here is a picture of a test run in 2nd gear starting at ~3k rpm to 3rd gear ~5k rpm:






The first 7 seconds are cruising at ~3k rpm before I launched. At ~9.5 seconds I shifted to 3rd and just under 12 seconds let off.

I want to get the rpm adapter for the LM-1 so that I can get a more accurate reading.

I am unsure if the ecu is pulling back my fuel when I run 10psi or if its my stock fuel pump not keeping up.
Re: ATTN Turbo Eco Owners, PLEASE READ AND REPLY
Friday, December 02, 2005 4:59 PM
^^^^^ THAT WAS ME. My brother was logged onto my computer with his name haha. Didnt notice.

so that above post was Brandoson







"Growing old is mandatory. Growing up? Definitely optional."
Re: ATTN Turbo Eco Owners, PLEASE READ AND REPLY
Friday, December 02, 2005 5:38 PM
thanks brando... you're clearly one of the people that doesn't have the issue that i'm referring to, which is good for you you're particular lean issue at 10 psi seems more like you need to go to a higher ratio disk in your fmu, if its 14.5-15 across the board.

To further explain the problem i'm referring to, the afr would start off pretty rich and the gradually creep up to stoich at 6000 or so rpm. So whereas Brandoson has a nice relatively flat afr, this would be a hill sloping up at it went to the right in the graph.

We had this happen to us on 440cc injectors, at 100psi of fuel pressure under only 6 psi boost. It WAS on the stock pump, but now with Megasquirt, 50psi idle fuel pressure, and the same 440cc injectors, it has no problem maintaining a flat a/f curve at 9 psi. So the pump was most likely not the issue at the time as clearly it is capable of supporting the flow. Please keep them coming people I'm interested to get some more results in hopes of getting a clearer picture of who does and doesn't see this issue and hopefully WHY.

Please also include any modifications done to trick factory sensors, such as check valves, resistors, diodes etc, just in case any of those might factor in.




Arrival Blue 04 LS Sport
Eco
Turbo
Megasquirt
'Nuff said
Re: ATTN Turbo Eco Owners, PLEASE READ AND REPLY
Friday, December 02, 2005 5:53 PM
I cannot say how happy I am you made this post. I'm having the same problem. Car runs great, but not safely (Bad A/F ratios and HIGH EGTS). BTW, I have the Hahn Stage II Turbo Kit.

Year of Car: 2004

Cavalier LS SPORT

35psi Base Fuel pressure, BEGI FMU (Fine adjustment turned completely tight)

Injector size: 32lb Accels

Super 16g @ 9-10psi

Overall fuel curved looked like this..... Lean (14.7 or even less) until around 5000 RPMs then extremely rich. Thats what the fuel curve generally looked like, although the air fuel ratios were bouncing around alot! I don't have a graph of the Air/Fuel Ratios, I only have one of my whp/torque.
Re: ATTN Turbo Eco Owners, PLEASE READ AND REPLY
Friday, December 02, 2005 9:02 PM
I'll post a reply after i try another adjustment and give you the info



Re: ATTN Turbo Eco Owners, PLEASE READ AND REPLY
Friday, December 02, 2005 9:07 PM
i already found a POSSIBLE solution to this and have mentioned it to more than a few people. Whether or not they listened is to be seen.

From my experience the 02s have no issues, 03 is a half issue (sometimes is, sometimes isnt) and the 04 have the full out issue. Thats GM and their new programming for you.

Goodbye OL programming. Happening with other brands too BTW.



I used to race cars, now I race myself.
5K PB: 24:50
10K PB: 54:26
Re: ATTN Turbo Eco Owners, PLEASE READ AND REPLY
Friday, December 02, 2005 9:33 PM
Hypsy, Rich already told me the solution that you're using... Since thats a sensitive topic round here i just wasn't going to mention it, especially since its not much help on the open road (or at least inconvenient) and as much as it DOES work its still kind of a hack solution. It is one way to overcome it though, so i guess if anyone wants to know your method they can PM you.

What would appear to be the case here is that for the 04-up ecos, a standalone fuel controller like Megasquirt, or Hahn's upcoming Portfueler (or if its been released already, i haven't been keeping track). In fact even Portfueler might have some issues, as it will add fuel and the stock computer will continue to pull fuel to attain its desired afr. HPTuners would be the best solution, but I don't think anyone here is holding their breath for that anymore.

Isn't it wonderful how this was supposed to be GM's great "tuner" engine, but the most important part of tuning they put under lock and key, chained it to a big rock, and through it off a bridge? Constant closed loop... I mean, VW ecus basically do the same thing, but they've been cracked for years and there's always been huge interest in chipping there.

If it makes the 04-05 guys feel any better, the Cobalt SS guys are having similar issues, although at least their pcm is requesting boost-friendly a/f's to begin with.




Arrival Blue 04 LS Sport
Eco
Turbo
Megasquirt
'Nuff said
Re: ATTN Turbo Eco Owners, PLEASE READ AND REPLY
Saturday, December 03, 2005 12:04 AM
what year is hahns sunfire thats running the mid 11 with the portfueler?



Re: ATTN Turbo Eco Owners, PLEASE READ AND REPLY
Saturday, December 03, 2005 12:33 AM
I am not sure what my issue is but I know its not the disc size. I tried a 10:1 and 12:1 and I get the exact same afr at higher boost.

Could it possibly be the fuel pump cant keep up? So it can only push so much pressure through the injectors?

Maybe my fmu is bad. I have a begi/cartech coming in the mail tomorrow or monday, depending on if DHL delivers on Saturdays. I also have another vortech I can try in there.

BTW I would highly recommend the LM-1 Units for help tuning your car. It is a helpfull tool. I only have the wideband afr and laptop recording options right now. I am planning on purchasing thier unit that allows you to monitor rpm, pressure, temps, throttle, IAT, and a few other things. Mainly I want the rpm signal cable though.



"Growing old is mandatory. Growing up? Definitely optional."
Re: ATTN Turbo Eco Owners, PLEASE READ AND REPLY
Saturday, December 03, 2005 1:56 AM
well this is weird, first I have caught wind of this



LE61T PTE6262 Powered


Re: ATTN Turbo Eco Owners, PLEASE READ AND REPLY
Saturday, December 03, 2005 6:05 AM
John H [Cavalierkid wrote:

]what year is hahns sunfire thats running the mid 11 with the portfueler?


its an 03... which like hypsy said, seems to be the 50/50 year for this problem. Maybe Bill will grace us with his presence, I'd definitely be interested in hearing what he has to say.

Quote:

well this is weird, first I have caught wind of this


Phil, I know that we all talked about this at dyno day... thats the whole reason rich ended up with megasquirt. We tried the fmu afpr and 440s, couldn't get it to maintain anything below 14:1 for more than 1000 rpm or so. Then we tried emanage, and that was just a fiasco in itself.




Arrival Blue 04 LS Sport
Eco
Turbo
Megasquirt
'Nuff said
Re: ATTN Turbo Eco Owners, PLEASE READ AND REPLY
Saturday, December 03, 2005 7:25 AM
From what i've heard what scarab says is true.
I have had some major issues getting my air fuel correct.
I'm about to try another setup soon and then i'll post what i get.
I remember that there was a reflash done to some 03's that
could possibly have something to do with it. Something about
engine idling rough or stalling. Not sure.
I just wish HPTuners would get off their @$$



Re: ATTN Turbo Eco Owners, PLEASE READ AND REPLY
Saturday, December 03, 2005 8:13 AM
-2004
-Cavalier LS
-30lb red tops, Cartech Adj. FMU #2025, walbro intank, accel adj FPR #74566
-T3 turbo 5 PSI non intercooled out of a 86 nissan 300zx, .63 hot, and somewhere around the .50 trim on compressor. (not positive on the cold side)

- I had originally put in gm s/c injectors and took it out on the wideband and notice that i was running lean right away 13.0 ish then climb pass 14.7 + in matter of milli-seconds. So I then installed the walbro, and same results.

- So i took out those injectors just to try a last hope and bought some ford red tops off ebay and installed them. Idel fuel pressure at 32 ish PSI and -3 to ) amto fuel pressure at 45 ish PSI then cartech maxed out on the ratio screw. I ran it with that setup and was able to acheive decent A/F ratios and was quite pleased (this was about a 8 months ago) I would start the runs in second gear and once in boost it would drop to 11.8 a/f and when i got to about 5200 RPMs ish (thats where i stopped and let off the gas) it had climbed to about 12.5 - 12.8 ish which i was very happy!

- However 3rd gear ran a tad leaner which when i was in the 5000+ rpm range in third gear is was in the 13's.

However it was a steady climb and didnt lean out like it was befor..I concluded that maybe the GM s/c injectors didnt like the high fuel pressure and was clipping.

- The way things are looking tho..it seems i wil have to run Ford 42lb's (grren tops) when i intercool it and bump up the boost to 7 PSI. wont be for a while. But i will post results when the time comes.

Ive been running on the above setup for over 10k miles now.
Re: ATTN Turbo Eco Owners, PLEASE READ AND REPLY
Saturday, December 03, 2005 2:42 PM
Scarab (Jersey Jay 1.8T) wrote:

Hahn's upcoming Portfueler (or if its been released already, i haven't been keeping track). In fact even Portfueler might have some issues, as it will add fuel and the stock computer will continue to pull fuel to attain its desired afr.


with the Portfueler the stock ECU doesn't control the added injectors. It doesn't even know they exist. It just knows that there is extra fuel being added at 0in/Mg for some reason. Thats why its imperative to have a WB with a system like that



I used to race cars, now I race myself.
5K PB: 24:50
10K PB: 54:26
Re: ATTN Turbo Eco Owners, PLEASE READ AND REPLY
Saturday, December 03, 2005 3:19 PM
hypsy(the12secondone) wrote:

Scarab (Jersey Jay 1.8T) wrote:

Hahn's upcoming Portfueler (or if its been released already, i haven't been keeping track). In fact even Portfueler might have some issues, as it will add fuel and the stock computer will continue to pull fuel to attain its desired afr.


with the Portfueler the stock ECU doesn't control the added injectors. It doesn't even know they exist. It just knows that there is extra fuel being added at 0in/Mg for some reason. Thats why its imperative to have a WB with a system like that


i was referring to the idea that if the PF is adding fuel, the O2 sensor would be reading an a/f richer than what it wants and it would try and pull fuel from the stock injectors to compensate. The ecu can only pull so much obviously, probably 20-25% adjustment maximum, but still enough where it would make getting a nice flat a/f curve a little difficult. It might not, i'm just discussing the possibility of it causing a little extra hassle. Still can't be nearly as bad as what me and Rich were running into with the AFPR/injector/FMU setup.

Does anyone know of any issues with possibly using an O2 eco ecu in a later model car? If it could work without flashing it to 03-up software, than that could be something of a solution for those not comfortable using megasquirt, and it may still work for emissions testing (although it also may not, just throwing ideas out there).




Arrival Blue 04 LS Sport
Eco
Turbo
Megasquirt
'Nuff said
Re: ATTN Turbo Eco Owners, PLEASE READ AND REPLY
Saturday, December 03, 2005 4:36 PM
I am using an 03 motor in my 02... so doing the opposite and swapping the ecu should also work. I know that the bcm has to match vins tho.



"Growing old is mandatory. Growing up? Definitely optional."
Re: ATTN Turbo Eco Owners, PLEASE READ AND REPLY
Saturday, December 03, 2005 4:48 PM
Brandoson wrote:

I am using an 03 motor in my 02... so doing the opposite and swapping the ecu should also work. I know that the bcm has to match vins tho.


well theres no question it could run the engine but the problem would be if there would be any communication issues with the bcm and if the older ecu would accept a newer VIN. Of course i may be thinking this is more complicated than it is since i'm used to dodges that have a buttload more modules on the bus than the cavs probably do.




Arrival Blue 04 LS Sport
Eco
Turbo
Megasquirt
'Nuff said
Re: ATTN Turbo Eco Owners, PLEASE READ AND REPLY
Saturday, December 03, 2005 7:24 PM
I believe you must swao both the bcm and ecu from the same car. Just go junkyard shopping



"Growing old is mandatory. Growing up? Definitely optional."
Re: ATTN Turbo Eco Owners, PLEASE READ AND REPLY
Monday, December 05, 2005 9:35 AM
I have a 2004 Cavalier, base model with the sport appearance package. (if that matters at all)

I am using a Garrett/Turbonetics t3/t04 hybrid, .60/.63. I am pushing 7psi right now.

For fuel I am using: Accel AFPR(base 39psi), SAFCII pulling 10% up to 2200rpms, then adding 10% at 50% or greater throttle, Ford Greentops(440's), FMU(4:1), Walbro 255lph intank pump and a PLX M-250 wideband sensor for monitoring.

Under load(hard acceleration):
From idle up to about 3300 I am running right between 13.0-15.0.
Then as boost builds my A/F richens to about 11.7-10.5.
As I reach 7psi or about 5800 rpms, I start to lean out to about 12.5-13.0.

Hopefully this will help out a little.




Boosted Eco @7psi for now....GTO come spring.....
Re: ATTN Turbo Eco Owners, PLEASE READ AND REPLY
Monday, December 05, 2005 3:30 PM
2003 cavalier
afpr (22psi), fmu (backed all the way out), (at the time) mopar stage 3 injectors (62lbs dynamic flow), 255lph pump
innovative turbo systems dual ball bearing ceramic coating stage 5 60-1 t3/t4 TO4E .63/.48
boost controller set to 14psi with boost creep to 16psi.
10.0 a/f across whole rpm range.

turned boost up to 20psi; a/f hit 10.3 and flat lined at ~5k due to pulled timing.

i am now running stock srt-4 injectors (54lb dynamic flow); i'll let you know results later.





Re: ATTN Turbo Eco Owners, PLEASE READ AND REPLY
Tuesday, December 06, 2005 2:56 PM
listening...



15.574 @ 89 mph stock
Re: ATTN Turbo Eco Owners, PLEASE READ AND REPLY
Sunday, January 28, 2007 5:26 PM
I'd hate to bring this back from the dead but I recently installed my LM1 Wideband. My car felt like it was running great, but looking at my AFR charts, my numbers are all over the place. They are all over the place regardless if I do the VSS trick. I'm extremely confused. Do you think it has anything to do with my injectors? Did anyone ever figure anything else out about this issue or is everyone going standalone? Thanks
Re: ATTN Turbo Eco Owners, PLEASE READ AND REPLY
Sunday, January 28, 2007 9:21 PM
Scarab (Jersey Jay 1.8T) wrote:


i was referring to the idea that if the PF is adding fuel, the O2 sensor would be reading an a/f richer than what it wants and it would try and pull fuel from the stock injectors to compensate. The ecu can only pull so much obviously, probably 20-25% adjustment maximum, but still enough where it would make getting a nice flat a/f curve a little difficult. It might not, i'm just discussing the possibility of it causing a little extra hassle. Still can't be nearly as bad as what me and Rich were running into with the AFPR/injector/FMU setup.

Does anyone know of any issues with possibly using an O2 eco ecu in a later model car? If it could work without flashing it to 03-up software, than that could be something of a solution for those not comfortable using megasquirt, and it may still work for emissions testing (although it also may not, just throwing ideas out there).


Our 03 Sunfire has not experienced this problem probably because of our PortFueler system. The PortFueler does not seem to make the stock ECU change any air/fuel ratio because PortFueler does not add more fuel UNTIL it sees boost increase. Like Ryne said, the stock ECU has no idea there is extra injectors. This allows for completely stock tuning on the stock injectors when the motor is not experiencing boost. When it does see boost, PortFueler adds more fuel, but at the same time there is also an increase in the air levels because of the boost. Ideally, the desired air/fuel ratio does not annoy the stock ECU when the PortFueler's map is tuned correctly. Hope this helps the cause



Street-Legal 2003 Sunfire 10.58 @ 139 MPH
Re: ATTN Turbo Eco Owners, PLEASE READ AND REPLY
Monday, January 29, 2007 7:43 AM
Aaron52788 wrote:

I'd hate to bring this back from the dead but I recently installed my LM1 Wideband. My car felt like it was running great, but looking at my AFR charts, my numbers are all over the place. They are all over the place regardless if I do the VSS trick. I'm extremely confused. Do you think it has anything to do with my injectors? Did anyone ever figure anything else out about this issue or is everyone going standalone? Thanks



HPTuners is an easy fix. They set the power enrichment to at liek 6K rpm, set it down to 0 rpm and problem solved



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