value of a borg warner T04b - Boost Forum

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value of a borg warner T04b
Wednesday, May 07, 2008 9:01 PM
my neighbor has a nearly new Borg-Warner T04B Turbo... I dont know much about it, or turbos in general... but he claims it is too big for his honda... and he is going smaller...

I just wondered what would be a good price for something like this?

I would prefer a larger turbo for top end power. So this sounds like it might work well for me.

your all the pros. what would be a good deal for one of these? and how would this work on a beefed up LD9?




Re: value of a borg warner T04b
Thursday, May 08, 2008 8:11 AM
You have provided no specs to let us know what turbo you're really talking about.

Is this a turbo off another stock car?

I am running a BorgWarner T3/04e.

-Chris-



-Sweetness-
-Turbocharged-
Volkswagen Supercharger on an LD9? Sure why not.
Re: value of a borg warner T04b
Thursday, May 08, 2008 8:25 AM
here is all i know about it...

originally purchased from TurboDriven.com for a Honda B16a engine, but was decided to be "too big" for his application and wanted something smaller so it wouldnt have to spool as much.

The tag on the back of the turbo reads:
Production Number 313099
MODEL T04B
Serial Number J0604 1453
The exhaust housing has a .98 A/R stamped on it, with a T4 inlet flange.
not sure what trim the compressor side is, but it has a 2.5" inlet and 3" outlet

It has never been installed.... and the guy wants $250 for it.... it SOUNDS like a good deal... but i dont know much about turbos... and deals dont mean anything if you dont need the product that is for sale. Even free cat food is a bad deal if your hungry.



Re: value of a borg warner T04b
Thursday, May 08, 2008 8:32 AM
probably a gm8 or gm9. i'd say $200-250 depending on the condition



Blew it up, build numbers coming soon
Re: value of a borg warner T04b
Thursday, May 08, 2008 9:10 AM
Agreed with the Stunna. I have a GM-6. It's originally off of a Duramax Diesel...

.98 ar is far far far too big unless you're going for huge #'s.

-Chris-



-Sweetness-
-Turbocharged-
Volkswagen Supercharger on an LD9? Sure why not.
Re: value of a borg warner T04b
Thursday, May 08, 2008 9:56 AM
SweetnessGT wrote:

Agreed with the Stunna. I have a GM-6. It's originally off of a Duramax Diesel...

.98 ar is far far far too big unless you're going for huge #'s.

-Chris-


Well i was thinking about using this in addition to my supercharger..... The supercharger has all the low end i need.... but it kinda gives up in higher RPM's So was kinda thinking that a large turbo (one that spools up slowly, but comes on storng in high RPM) would be perfect, as it would act almost as if it wasnt there and let the SC do its work... but then when the SC got out of its powerband this thing would kick in and help me out.

Not really looking for HUGE numbers... but i am looking for usable power in specific areas. In this case way up top.

It is supposedly brand new, right out of the box. has a few guys making ofers, but says i can have it for $250 cash right now.

but just dont know if it is worth it. (for my project)



Re: value of a borg warner T04b
Thursday, May 08, 2008 9:58 AM
what does the AR number mean anyway?

never quite understood the turbo codes and all... (and yes i have read the FAQ's and stickies many times)



Re: value of a borg warner T04b
Thursday, May 08, 2008 1:08 PM
area to ratio. basiclly its the distance from your center section to the outside edge of the turbo. its probably the best representation of a turbos potential.

the average 300 HP snail is usually no bigger then 60 65AR on the turbine side. .9 is a monster. anything over 1 is just plain silly.




"Kick azz is my boost hero!!! "
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Re: value of a borg warner T04b
Thursday, May 08, 2008 2:11 PM
Jcavi wrote:

area to radius. basiclly its the distance from your center section to the outside edge of the turbo. its probably the best representation of a turbos potential.

the average 300 HP snail is usually no bigger then 60 65AR on the turbine side. .9 is a monster. anything over 1 is just plain silly.


Corrected...



Re: value of a borg warner T04b
Thursday, May 08, 2008 2:15 PM
so even if it is brand new and never ben used, and is as big and powerful as you guys make it out to be.... it is still only worth $200??

i would imagine larger ones would be more $$$



Re: value of a borg warner T04b
Thursday, May 08, 2008 2:41 PM
That turbo wont kick in until some pretty high RPM's. what area are you specifically trying to fill in?

I have heard good things about the Borg turbo's, but if it isn't what your looking for, it is worth $0




Re: value of a borg warner T04b
Thursday, May 08, 2008 2:58 PM
I dont really need it at all.... my cavy was plenty fast before her lil accident..... and i am sure she will be plenty faster when she is all healed and on the road again... but i just thought it would be hella fun to try and turbo and supercharge her.

the SC does just dandy for normal driving and a lil racing... but a nice big turbo would sure be sweet to have kick in when my lil SC is starting to wuss out in the top end.

With a supercharger cramming air in, and making up for low end, and helping pump out exhaust... i cant imagine it would take TOOO long to spin up a big turbo... at least alot faster than it would on a OHV with nothing to help out.

Lets say we just slapped this .98 turbo onto a OHV engine 2.2L (as this seem to be the engine most people turbo) what kinda lag would you expect? what RPM would you expect to feel it kick in? and how many PSI do you think it could put out once it got to spinning?

Right now i have 7psi as soon as i stomp the pedal... sometimes i hit peaks of 8-9psi...

I am currently building my engine... and this is the time, if ever, to make decisions like this one... if i thought i could do the turbo and supercharger... then i could build the engine accordingly.

as of right now i was going to do a 10:1 compression.... but 10:1 pistons are a PITA to find for a 2.4L... i can find 9.5, 9, 8.x all day long... but with a supercharger alone... it is silly to go any lower... 7psi is pretty much maxed out. but throw a turbo on there... then we got something to help fill those cylinders... and make use of a lower compression.



Re: value of a borg warner T04b
Thursday, May 08, 2008 3:38 PM
I understand what you are doing, but I dont know WHEN your charger actually gives up, that would help knowing if this will do what you want.

I am not all that familiar with the Borg turbos, but I think that would spool up at around 4-5k.

The RPM it hits full boost would depend on how much boost you are pushing.

I would also agree with you on the pistons. I think your sc setup can handle the higher comp. ratio, but I would drop it if trying to dual charge.




Re: value of a borg warner T04b
Saturday, May 10, 2008 2:08 AM
ken i will buy this turbo from that gu, it is too big for your car..i have moneys..its will be going on vlads supra prolly


Built&Boosted moar
04 Cavalier Turbo r.i.p my baby
2nd place 2009 GM tuner bash qwick 8--holla

Re: value of a borg warner T04b
Saturday, May 10, 2008 7:40 AM
John Benham wrote:

I understand what you are doing, but I dont know WHEN your charger actually gives up, that would help knowing if this will do what you want.

I am not all that familiar with the Borg turbos, but I think that would spool up at around 4-5k.

The RPM it hits full boost would depend on how much boost you are pushing.

I would also agree with you on the pistons. I think your sc setup can handle the higher comp. ratio, but I would drop it if trying to dual charge.


So what compression ratio would you advise for such a thing? i dont want to go tooo low cuz then i loose my streetability and low end power (which is where i do most of my driving)
That is the reason i never liked turbos... you pretty much have a stock engine, until the boost kicks in. and the boost kicks in only after you have had your foot in it for a few seconds... and most of the time that doesnt fit my needs.

i like my off the line acceleration, the ability to just stomp and go, that is what i love most about the supercharger.... from 0-35 is important to me. as is my 60-70mph.

To be honest i dont ever feel my supercharger "give up" it isnt like i get to 5000rpm and want to fall asleep... I havent been on a dyno yet, and need to make this twin charger decision before she is back up and running.

How many other T4 turbos are out there for our application? I was thinking i could maybe get this one and bolt it on... if it is too big i could always yank it off and put on a smaller one.


Wouldnt a supercharged engine (which naturally puts out way more exhaust than a naturally aspirated one, and revs faster, and already has tons of low end power) be able to spin a much larger turbo than most engines with a turbo alone.

Everyone is telling me "that is WAY tooo big, i have a .68 on mine and that is PLENTY big" but the thing is that yours is being spun by a normal engine. the normal 2.4L and especialy the 2.2L is perfectly happy flowing thru 2" or smaller crush bent exhaust... my supercharged engine with stock pulley made it sound like my tailpipe was going to explode from the pressure... with my 2.5" pulley and 2.5" mandrel bent exhaust, it still has a good bit of pressure, but seems much happier now... 2.5" pipe flows roughly 150% more than 2" (mathamatically) but take into account the bending methods and i am sure my 2.5" exhaust is probably flowing 200% better than stock. and i still put out more exhaust pressure than a stock 2.4L thru a stock exhaust....

so wouldnt it be fair to take this all into acccount when deciding what is "too big" of a turbo? According to my reading and research... the turbo is really limited by the amount of exhaust there is to spin it. So just because . 98 is "too big" for a typical 2.4, does that mean it is too big for ALL 2.4's... wouldnt that be like saying "only a V-8 can make 300hp" last i checked it wasnt about the cylinders, or the displacement... it was about the volume of air and the amount of fuel.




Re: value of a borg warner T04b
Saturday, May 10, 2008 10:49 AM
You would be no where near the efficiency range of that turbo,.... Don't waste your money..



P&P Tuning
420.5whp / 359.8wtq

Re: value of a borg warner T04b
Saturday, May 10, 2008 10:54 AM
ok... but can someone give me some WHY's and not just Yes and No's

i am trying to learn here. i would like to know the theory behind why this is TOO BIG not just "it is too big"

From what i have read, it sounds like the size of the turbine housing just determines how restrictive the turbo is at high RPM. more restriction = faster spool, but more restrictive up top.

I want as little restriction as possible... and i dont much care about low end and mid range boost... i have plenty of that from the supercharger....

i am LOOKING for something un-restrictive and something with alot of power in the 4000-7000 range


I assume something like this would be good for that.... but no one will answer why, all i get is yes and no... and that isnt overly helpful



Re: value of a borg warner T04b
Saturday, May 10, 2008 11:24 AM
ken soggs wrote:

ok... but can someone give me some WHY's and not just Yes and No's

i am trying to learn here. i would like to know the theory behind why this is TOO BIG not just "it is too big"

Read my previous post.... You wold not be in the efficiency range of that turbo.... Something with a .63 a/r would be more than sufficient for 4-7K range...



P&P Tuning
420.5whp / 359.8wtq

Re: value of a borg warner T04b
Saturday, May 10, 2008 2:28 PM
The exhaust doesn't seem to be the only thing wrong with that turbo. The turbo is just simply too large both in turbine and compressor sizes. The GM-3's are a nice size for our cars, but the 8's and 9's are monsters from what I remember. Keep in mind, though, the AR is simply a ratio, and it is reletive to the size of turbo you use. The reason I believe most people keep saying a "0.63 is ideal" is because they are comparing to the typical T04E turbos most people use here with simple inefficient log style manifolds. You could theoretically spool a small KKK turbo designed for a 1.8L VW with a .98 AR on your LD9 fairly quickly. I personally would prefer a twin scroll T4 with a .76-.83 AR on a properly cylinder paired turbo header myself. Also, a turbo's ability to spool or flow some set amount of CFM's is only partially related to the exhaust. The compressor is the other half of the "efficiency" story. I posted a link to a turbo compressor calculator not too long ago. Hopefully it can help you understand....CLICK.

Consider this though...

ken soggs wrote:

my neighbor has a nearly new Borg-Warner T04B Turbo... I dont know much about it, or turbos in general... but he claims it is too big for his honda... and he is going smaller...


If it is too big for a Honda, what makes you think it would be a good size for an LD9? Unless he has a D-series, I've never heard of any Honda owner complain about size before. That's a red flag right there to me.
Re: value of a borg warner T04b
Saturday, May 10, 2008 3:16 PM
Whalesac wrote:

Consider this though...

ken soggs wrote:

my neighbor has a nearly new Borg-Warner T04B Turbo... I dont know much about it, or turbos in general... but he claims it is too big for his honda... and he is going smaller...


If it is too big for a Honda, what makes you think it would be a good size for an LD9? Unless he has a D-series, I've never heard of any Honda owner complain about size before. That's a red flag right there to me.


hmmm.... lets see... his honda is 1 .8L... my cavalier is a 2.4... that would be a 33% increase in engine size alone.... also the fact that EVERYONE seems to be over looking here is that my whole arguement is that MINE IS NOT A STOCK 2.4. my engine is ALREADY SUPERCHARGED and will stay that way..... the turbo would be in addition to the supercharger, so not only do i have 2.4L spinning it, but i also have 7psi already spinning it. how many of your engines start off with 7psi to turn your turbo?

i would love to get some sort of CFM gauge and compare the exhaust of my supercharged 2.4L to any one of your cars without the turbo on it... just to see what kind of exhaust volume we are talking here. Because i may be wrong, but everything i read explains that turbos are entirely driven by exhaust pressure, and the amount of exhaust to turn the turbine is the factor that decides what else to go with. I would be willing to bet my supercharger that my car puts out more exhaust than any one of your turbo engines without the turbo attached.

i would go so far as to assume i pump out as much or more exhaust than most V-6's and many stock V-8's

everyone talks about what size turbo works best for "our LD9's" but apart from one guy, who has yet to join this thread... i dont believe a single one of you is turbocharging a supercharged engine.... so "my LD9" is not like anything any of you are turbo-ing.
so to say what is best for "your LD9" is not the same for mine. unless you are twin charging yours too...






Re: value of a borg warner T04b
Saturday, May 10, 2008 3:56 PM
Buy it, try it, and post up the results.




Re: value of a borg warner T04b
Saturday, May 10, 2008 3:56 PM
ken soggs wrote:

Whalesac wrote:

Consider this though...

ken soggs wrote:

my neighbor has a nearly new Borg-Warner T04B Turbo... I dont know much about it, or turbos in general... but he claims it is too big for his honda... and he is going smaller...


If it is too big for a Honda, what makes you think it would be a good size for an LD9? Unless he has a D-series, I've never heard of any Honda owner complain about size before. That's a red flag right there to me.


hmmm.... lets see... his honda is 1 .8L... my cavalier is a 2.4... that would be a 33% increase in engine size alone.... also the fact that EVERYONE seems to be over looking here is that my whole arguement is that MINE IS NOT A STOCK 2.4. my engine is ALREADY SUPERCHARGED and will stay that way..... the turbo would be in addition to the supercharger, so not only do i have 2.4L spinning it, but i also have 7psi already spinning it. how many of your engines start off with 7psi to turn your turbo?

i would love to get some sort of CFM gauge and compare the exhaust of my supercharged 2.4L to any one of your cars without the turbo on it... just to see what kind of exhaust volume we are talking here. Because i may be wrong, but everything i read explains that turbos are entirely driven by exhaust pressure, and the amount of exhaust to turn the turbine is the factor that decides what else to go with. I would be willing to bet my supercharger that my car puts out more exhaust than any one of your turbo engines without the turbo attached.

i would go so far as to assume i pump out as much or more exhaust than most V-6's and many stock V-8's

everyone talks about what size turbo works best for "our LD9's" but apart from one guy, who has yet to join this thread... i dont believe a single one of you is turbocharging a supercharged engine.... so "my LD9" is not like anything any of you are turbo-ing.
so to say what is best for "your LD9" is not the same for mine. unless you are twin charging yours too...

Wow...you obviously don't have a clue how compressors work. You are using high school algebra to justify an answer to a differential equation. B and K series and some H series engines have been making 550+ whp on streetable engines for years. You said it yourself...

ken soggs wrote:


so wouldnt it be fair to take this all into acccount when deciding what is "too big" of a turbo? According to my reading and research... the turbo is really limited by the amount of exhaust there is to spin it. So just because . 98 is "too big" for a typical 2.4, does that mean it is too big for ALL 2.4's... wouldnt that be like saying "only a V-8 can make 300hp" last i checked it wasnt about the cylinders, or the displacement... it was about the volume of air and the amount of fuel.

CFM's are what turbos flow, and CFM's are what equate to horsepower. Unless you plan for 600+whp, WHICH YOU WILL NEVER get out of that engine without astronomically high duration cams, don't think the fact that you have more exhaust energy at lower rpms will do @!#$ for you. You will be much too far out of the efficiency of the compressor that it won't matter even if you do build boost. This has nothing to do with my own reservations with the m45 twin-charged setup. THIS TURBO IS JUST TOO @!#$ BIG FOR YOUR APPLICATION!!!!

Read the link I posted, then read all of the turbobygarrett.com tech pages 20 times, then if you still have questions, then come back and ask. If you aren't willing to listen to people here who know what the hell they are talking about, then maybe you'll listen to a turbo manufacturer who knows what the hell they're talking about.
Re: value of a borg warner T04b
Saturday, May 10, 2008 4:07 PM
ken soggs wrote:

hmmm.... lets see... his honda is 1 .8L... my cavalier is a 2.4... that would be a 33% increase in engine size alone.... also the fact that EVERYONE seems to be over looking here is that my whole arguement is that MINE IS NOT A STOCK 2.4. my engine is ALREADY SUPERCHARGED and will stay that way..... the turbo would be in addition to the supercharger, so not only do i have 2.4L spinning it, but i also have 7psi already spinning it. how many of your engines start off with 7psi to turn your turbo?

i would love to get some sort of CFM gauge and compare the exhaust of my supercharged 2.4L to any one of your cars without the turbo on it... just to see what kind of exhaust volume we are talking here. Because i may be wrong, but everything i read explains that turbos are entirely driven by exhaust pressure, and the amount of exhaust to turn the turbine is the factor that decides what else to go with. I would be willing to bet my supercharger that my car puts out more exhaust than any one of your turbo engines without the turbo attached.

i would go so far as to assume i pump out as much or more exhaust than most V-6's and many stock V-8's

everyone talks about what size turbo works best for "our LD9's" but apart from one guy, who has yet to join this thread... i dont believe a single one of you is turbocharging a supercharged engine.... so "my LD9" is not like anything any of you are turbo-ing.
so to say what is best for "your LD9" is not the same for mine. unless you are twin charging yours too...
So let me get this straight... You are going to ask a billiion "why" questions (billion threads of yours always seem the same too... why, why, why.. ) , People make the best attempt to give you the best advise without "losing" you, and then you are going to make replies like this?!?! .... After reading all this crap it is obvious you hve no clue in hell what you are talking about.. If I were you I would start listing to people and taking some of the more knowledgable members' advice or or can do whatever you want (which it sounds like you just want somebody to hold your hand and tell you its ok) and have a non efficient setup and ruin another engine... To each their own....



P&P Tuning
420.5whp / 359.8wtq

Re: value of a borg warner T04b
Saturday, May 10, 2008 7:03 PM
ok well thank you, at least the last 2 posts give me SOME idea of what i have been asking for all along....

so it sounds like you are saying "not only will this turbo take too long to spool up, but once it does it will be flowing too much air for your engine and your engine wont be able to make use of it"

That is the "good info" that i am pulling from hours of ranting about this.

if people would answer the questions i wouldnt have to keep asking them over and over.

"it is too big" doesnt tell me a thing. "it will take too long to spool, and will flow too much air and your engine wont be able to use it all" is a great answer.

the way everyone else i talked to made it sound was just "if it is too big it will just take forever to spool" and so my responce to that was "well all you need to spool is exhaust pressure and i have plenty of that. so i dont think spooling will be a problem"

but despite asking 40 times "what do you mean it is too big, WHY is it too big" finally someone sort of gave a decent responce that explained it. So thank you whalesac. That is really all i wanted to know.

i have done my share of reading on turbos and so far i havent read much about a turbo being too big for an engine... they just talk about bigger takes longer to spool but provides more power... well more power sounds great to me... and i dont much care about spooling as long as it can be over 7psi by 5000rpm which doesnt sound like i am asking too much. So THAT is what i was going on, and ASKING if there was any more to it... and no one explained otherwise until whalsac just now.

so now i know why and i will shut up. thank you for answering my question.





Re: value of a borg warner T04b
Saturday, May 10, 2008 7:26 PM
The T04 turbo is a nice large turbo! IT will be great for an engine needing 400 plus hp. The problem is if it's to big for a Honda with a B16 that has been punched out to 1.8, then it is way too big for an OHV 2.2. You see a Honda B16 head can flow more air stock than a 350 SBC can. The OHV 2.2 does not have the right flow characteristics to spool this turbo, and even if you modified it and made it get the right flow, you will need some high RPM's. As to adding it in addition with a supercharger, it is possible but the problem is you can damage a supercharger by trying to force more air through than the supercharger can actually flow, unless it is a centrifugal supercharger. If you want to try to use it thats great, but it will not be very streetable. let me know how it goes!
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