M62 limits? - Boost Forum

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M62 limits?
Wednesday, September 21, 2011 2:07 AM
I am thinking of going supercharged instead of NA and I can't seem to find info on the limits of the M62. I have done some searching and found threads with people pushing mid 200's but those threads are over three years old now. I am building a LD9 with W41 cams, wiseco pistons, eagle rods, 2.3 pump swap, usual stuff. I know a turbo will make more power and generally just as reliable if done/tuned right, I have my reasons for only considering supercharger. Is 300+ whp attainable on a M62 with the above build?


PSN ID: Phatchance249


Re: M62 limits?
Wednesday, September 21, 2011 5:21 AM
Well your first issue would be finding a manifold for your ld9/mp62 plan....That aside I'm 100% stock internally on my eco and @ 10psi on a 3.0 pulley I'm at 249whp. And I'm not sure if you ran across it but Airtonics had a 297whp eco with a forged eco with cams and head work iirc. Being your LD is .2 liters bigger and if built accoringly I could see a 300whp on an ld9 supercharger reflash no problem. Just make sure you have a solid H/e system maybe add some meth injection for good measure and have a good j body tuner handle the computer work. I'm sure others will chime in by the days end. Keep us up to date with your build I'd love to see a 300whp supercharged ld9.






Re: M62 limits?
Wednesday, September 21, 2011 8:39 AM
If done right its possible. You are going to want/need different cams though.


1994 Saturn SL2 Home Coming Edition: backup car
2002 Chevy Cavalier LS Sport Coupe: In a Junk Yard
1995 Mazda Miata R-package Class=STR
Sponsored by: Kronos Performance

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Re: M62 limits?
Wednesday, September 21, 2011 10:00 AM
It will be fully built with W41 cams, water injection and either OEM(Vulcan?) manifold or a custom one I have made locally. It would also be a custom tune after the re-flash. I may have to do this just to answer my own question.


PSN ID: Phatchance249

Re: M62 limits?
Wednesday, September 21, 2011 10:01 AM
W41 cams wont make 300 wheel. You need will need custom ones.


1994 Saturn SL2 Home Coming Edition: backup car
2002 Chevy Cavalier LS Sport Coupe: In a Junk Yard
1995 Mazda Miata R-package Class=STR
Sponsored by: Kronos Performance

WPI Class of '12 Mechanical Engineering
WPI SAE Risk and Sustainability Management Officer
Re: M62 limits?
Wednesday, September 21, 2011 10:30 AM
I would not use the OEM manifold for your goals.

I'm at 219whp on a 131k stock LD9 and a M45. I do have secret cams as well.

Tuning and cooling, but I think it is possible.



FU Tuning



Re: M62 limits?
Monday, September 26, 2011 6:15 PM
Leafy (Club Jeffie FEA man) wrote:

W41 cams wont make 300 wheel. You need will need custom ones.


really now... and exactly why is that? tell that to scott "lafngas" that made 535+whp on only 20psi running dubs. hell, even ho cams have no problem making 500+



Re: M62 limits?
Monday, September 26, 2011 8:18 PM
Not with the blower.


1994 Saturn SL2 Home Coming Edition: backup car
2002 Chevy Cavalier LS Sport Coupe: In a Junk Yard
1995 Mazda Miata R-package Class=STR
Sponsored by: Kronos Performance

WPI Class of '12 Mechanical Engineering
WPI SAE Risk and Sustainability Management Officer
Re: M62 limits?
Tuesday, September 27, 2011 7:36 PM
thats thats fine and dandy... how about explaining why?



Re: M62 limits?
Tuesday, September 27, 2011 7:55 PM
With a turbo you are able to efficiently cram tons of air into the intake manifold. With such high pressures you can overcome small ports, poor cam profiles and the like just due to pressure differential. So unless the cam has tons of overlap or a very late exhaust cam it wont make a large detriment to the car. Turbos are also able to efficiently move massive amounts of air. Now blowers, on the other hand, only move a set amount of air per revolution and have a MASSIVE decrease in efficiency when the pressure ratio exceeds 2. So you must optimize the cam profile to your ports, header, and the fact that you have a blower in order to extract every bit of power you can from that set amount of air you can move. The MP62 flows enough air to support 400+ horse, the hard part is getting the air into the combustion chamber, the even harder part is using that air as efficiently as possible. IE sufficient spark timing, cheating by adding more air with e85 (which also let you run more timing), some other tricks. Of course the reward for putting that much effort into making the power with the blower is that you have lagless power, and crazy low end torque.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edited Tuesday, September 27, 2011 9:37 PM

1994 Saturn SL2 Home Coming Edition: backup car
2002 Chevy Cavalier LS Sport Coupe: In a Junk Yard
1995 Mazda Miata R-package Class=STR
Sponsored by: Kronos Performance

WPI Class of '12 Mechanical Engineering
WPI SAE Risk and Sustainability Management Officer
Re: M62 limits?
Tuesday, September 27, 2011 8:53 PM
I say u backed up your words verry well


*****BLAME IT ON THE ALCOHOL*****

Re: M62 limits?
Wednesday, September 28, 2011 10:16 AM
yea that makes sense, sure... but i still dont see how that has anything to do with w41 cams exactly?

i wasnt aware you had an exact cam profile for them... thats awesome considering nobody else does. please post up all info on them if you could!

the fact of the matter is all you have is you are just going off the .410 / .219 profile of them, while im right there with you in saying are definitely not designed for boost, but it doesnt nessesarily mean they arent going to worth a damn.

sure, custom cams designed for use in this exact application is going to yield better results but idk if you have noticed but the supply of cam blanks for these motors is basically non-existant and re-grinds can only go so far and with limited grind options available i dont even see it being worth having a $2000 dollar set of custom billets made.

also, whats to stop someone from getting adjustable cam gears and getting the overlap from w41s at least close for the blower?





Re: M62 limits?
Wednesday, September 28, 2011 10:33 AM
I assume the w41 cams are bumpy NA cams which would have lots of overlap which would make you blow some of the air and fuel right through the cylinder head and into the exhaust.


1994 Saturn SL2 Home Coming Edition: backup car
2002 Chevy Cavalier LS Sport Coupe: In a Junk Yard
1995 Mazda Miata R-package Class=STR
Sponsored by: Kronos Performance

WPI Class of '12 Mechanical Engineering
WPI SAE Risk and Sustainability Management Officer
Re: M62 limits?
Wednesday, September 28, 2011 3:07 PM
LOL well lets be honest here... even the w41 cams are tame compared to a lot of honda n/a cams. in reality, they arent as bad as they seem. hell even the biggest cams ive seen for a quad 4 (.470 lift and .268 duration) are mild compared to other platforms etc.

see the biggest problem is we dont have all the hard data we need for the them or hell even ho cams to really gauge whats gonna happen. hate to say it and i know it sucks but a lot of what we quad guys do is guess and test.

but even still, like i said... whats to stop someone from dialing out some of the overlap with adjustable cam gears?



Re: M62 limits?
Wednesday, September 28, 2011 7:10 PM
The combination of static compression ratio and cam profile is more important than the cam profile alone. If you want to make big power on any given blower, you need big cams, thoughtfully ported head, and static compression on the higher side of things. That's in addition to cooling and knock control as mentioned already.

People get on a one track mind with blowers that it's all about spinning it faster and moving more air, when in fact your taking one step forward and three back. Make better use of the air as efficiently as you can, and good things will happen. Run the blower to 18k rpm on a stock motor, and you may as well go home...

The other thing with blowers on our cars, in general, is people get hung up on peak dyno numbers. You need to take a ride in a well tuned 220-240whp blower car to appreciate the powerband. Some, not all, but some people say "220whp - that's fkn weak", when in fact, on the street, it's a very usable powerband, and very fun to drive. Think of it more like a really strong V6 swap. There is something to be said for putting your foot to the floor at 3k rpm and having strong and steady power to a 7k redline. Same goes for 5th gear effortless passing on the highway. This is, of course, all relative to your goals with the car.



Re: M62 limits?
Wednesday, September 28, 2011 7:44 PM
Quote:


The other thing with blowers on our cars, in general, is people get hung up on peak dyno numbers. You need to take a ride in a well tuned 220-240whp blower car to appreciate the powerband. Some, not all, but some people say "220whp - that's fkn weak", when in fact, on the street, it's a very usable powerband, and very fun to drive. Think of it more like a really strong V6 swap. There is something to be said for putting your foot to the floor at 3k rpm and having strong and steady power to a 7k redline. Same goes for 5th gear effortless passing on the highway. This is, of course, all relative to your goals with the car.


Very well said.



FU Tuning



Re: M62 limits?
Saturday, October 01, 2011 6:16 AM
Addicted to meth wrote:

Quote:


The other thing with blowers on our cars, in general, is people get hung up on peak dyno numbers. You need to take a ride in a well tuned 220-240whp blower car to appreciate the powerband. Some, not all, but some people say "220whp - that's fkn weak", when in fact, on the street, it's a very usable powerband, and very fun to drive. Think of it more like a really strong V6 swap. There is something to be said for putting your foot to the floor at 3k rpm and having strong and steady power to a 7k redline. Same goes for 5th gear effortless passing on the highway. This is, of course, all relative to your goals with the car.


Very well said.


i also agree... my sedan has surprised some of my friends with how quick it actually is and i only dyno'd 186 whp @ the bash. (granted it was with a slipping clutch and a low reading dyno and blah blah blah)



Re: M62 limits?
Saturday, October 01, 2011 8:13 AM
So assuming one has a solid 2.4 bottom end, dished, forged .020 over wisecos, eagles for piece of mind, new chain and tensioner, and 2.3 oil pump. Use a rebuilt HO head / cams, vulcan kit with an MP62 and LS1 TB. Push this threw a Pacesetter header and stock 2 1/4 stock exhaust. Reflashed with 2 bar map and mildly aggressive tune for a 2.6 inch pulley. Intercooler for hopefully 100 degree intake air. Bigger injectors and fuel pump if you need more fuel. As an armchair dreamer I would think this could produce 300 + reliable hp.

All this is available and no real expensive one off custom made parts. Some are saying it's guess and hope. I think for 5 grand that would be a fun, kick ass set up. That's pretty expensive but not totally out of reach. Tell me what I'm missing.


Labrat
Re: M62 limits?
Saturday, October 01, 2011 8:44 AM
Labrat wrote:

So assuming one has a solid 2.4 bottom end, dished, forged .020 over wisecos, eagles for piece of mind, new chain and tensioner, and 2.3 oil pump. Use a rebuilt HO head / cams, vulcan kit with an MP62 and LS1 TB. Push this threw a Pacesetter header and stock 2 1/4 stock exhaust. Reflashed with 2 bar map and mildly aggressive tune for a 2.6 inch pulley. Intercooler for hopefully 100 degree intake air. Bigger injectors and fuel pump if you need more fuel. As an armchair dreamer I would think this could produce 300 + reliable hp.

All this is available and no real expensive one off custom made parts. Some are saying it's guess and hope. I think for 5 grand that would be a fun, kick ass set up. That's pretty expensive but not totally out of reach. Tell me what I'm missing.


If you shop smart, you can easily do this for far less than 5 grand. Now if you have 5 grand you definitely want to spend...you can have some nice toys as "extras" lol.

I really don't think there is a need to go as tiny as a 2.6" pulley. You're going to generate a TON of heat with that and spinning the blower pretty much to it's limit. You're going to need a monster and well planned cooling system, as well as probably meth injection to control that. Unless of course your goal is to make a torque monster, then smaller is better. I'm overall pretty impressed with the pull my car has as is, but I was pleasantly surprised when I took a ride in a car with a 2.8" pulley.

I'm running a 3.1 pulley with a solid tune, and can attest to the fact that the car is loads of fun to drive. Haven't been on a dyno yet, but I'm guessing I'm falling in the 215ish range based on similar setup's numbers. Oldskool said it perfectly, a setup like this creates a strong powerband that's right there under your foot when you want it, and even stomping on it in 5th gear still creates some torque.






Re: M62 limits?
Saturday, October 01, 2011 1:38 PM
NO chance with that exhaust. You may want domed pistons. If you are going to run meth might as well run a bunch of compression to really make it worth it. Blowers love compression.


1994 Saturn SL2 Home Coming Edition: backup car
2002 Chevy Cavalier LS Sport Coupe: In a Junk Yard
1995 Mazda Miata R-package Class=STR
Sponsored by: Kronos Performance

WPI Class of '12 Mechanical Engineering
WPI SAE Risk and Sustainability Management Officer
Re: M62 limits?
Saturday, October 01, 2011 3:19 PM
2.8 ftw

Re: M62 limits?
Saturday, October 01, 2011 3:34 PM
Labrat wrote:

So assuming one has a solid 2.4 bottom end, dished, forged .020 over wisecos, eagles for piece of mind, new chain and tensioner, and 2.3 oil pump. Use a rebuilt HO head / cams, vulcan kit with an MP62 and LS1 TB. Push this threw a Pacesetter header and stock 2 1/4 stock exhaust. Reflashed with 2 bar map and mildly aggressive tune for a 2.6 inch pulley. Intercooler for hopefully 100 degree intake air. Bigger injectors and fuel pump if you need more fuel. As an armchair dreamer I would think this could produce 300 + reliable hp.

All this is available and no real expensive one off custom made parts. Some are saying it's guess and hope. I think for 5 grand that would be a fun, kick ass set up. That's pretty expensive but not totally out of reach. Tell me what I'm missing.


thats what i'm planing. but you will need the vulcan manifold with the 2.3 head flange. (that is most likely one of a kind parts) luckily, i have one hehe! cost me 1400 that alone.
i have a 10.5:1 c/r pistons
now shopping for a harrop tvs!
just not sure on cooling yet, either air to air or water to air. i will probably also use meth injection.



Re: M62 limits?
Saturday, October 01, 2011 6:43 PM
2.4 pulley and meth on a M45 is all you need.



FU Tuning



Re: M62 limits?
Thursday, October 06, 2011 5:32 AM
Magik1109 wrote:


i have a 10.5:1 c/r pistons .


so they are 10.5:1 on a bone stock engine... or???

what bore? what head gasket thickness? what do ur combustion chambers cc out at?



Re: M62 limits?
Thursday, October 06, 2011 6:59 PM
no bone stock engine, you can see in my profile! too much to list.





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