New $650 Toy :) - Page 4 - Photos & Media Forum

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Re: New $650 Toy :)
Tuesday, March 28, 2006 1:35 PM
When I buy mine I'll let you know what they did for hardware.




Re: New $650 Toy :)
Tuesday, March 28, 2006 6:03 PM
Mr. Pute wrote:
BlackEco wrote:First of all your not paying for just the hardware, your paying for all the time theyve spent engineering the software. Second of all Im sure they use a generic enclosure and off the shelf parts for their hardware because it helps keep costs down. If they had to pay someone to produce a proprietary enclosure Im sure it would cost $$$$ more and I dont plan on using the box on a Dune Buggy.


i should of said my point behind bringing up the quality of the physical parts is that I would be absolutely livid if the thing stopped working in a year due to a bad solder joint or something stupid like that. $650 is a ton of money to spend on something that is presented so horribly in my opinion. Of course, I'm still going to buy it though...

Oh and the programming involved with the software isn't bad at all since they're using the same VCM suite they have for the F-Body platform. The only hard part is getting access to what GM had already done by means of knowing the encryption on the ECU, which probably wasn't that big of a problem due to the fact that they've done it in the past for the F-Body platform. If I had to guess, if you cracked open that Pactel case, you'd find an interface made of a usb integrated circuit and either a Atmel or Microchip microprocessor acting as the interface between the computer and ECU. Nothing more than $20-$50 in physical hardware.

It's safe to say that they bank REALLY good on the products they offer.


I don't want to sound pissed off, but that hit a cord...

First off, the case is a similar design, yes, BUT the cuts where they connectors come through are professional, like it came out of the mold like that. These cases I'm sure, while probably made by the same people, are one of a kind for that interface.

Second, who the @!#$ cares if they make some money off the parts? Its NOT THE PARTS that you are paying for, its the engineering time and effort that went into product, not the cost of the parts, they are running a business, not a charity. You think the computer you're typing on is honestly worth more than $100-$200 in pure material costs?

Third, the programming may not be *all* that different from the F bodies and other vehicles they support, but it still requires effort to go through the bin files, find the tables, make definition files, change the software, make a new release, etc. Again, you aren't paying for the materials, you are paying for the engineering.

Lastly, if you guys want to go piss off the guys who are doing us a HUGE favor by cracking these cases open and calling what they are selling "cheap", then you are screwing us all. Understandably they can drop this product line if people go take thier @!#$ apart and start screwing with what we have. I certainly wouldn't support this vehicle line if you guys took my product apart and started going through my components. Its not what gets put in, its the effort that goes into designing the interface.

These guys stand behind thier product. If in a year you do have a solder joint fail (which I find highly unlikely), then I'm sure they will get it fixed to your satisfaction. When you guys see the level of support they are offering for your purchase, that alone right there is worth it. I emailed them on Saturday evening about a file I couldn't open, and I had an updated version of the software by Sunday afternoon, they reprogrammed and re-released the 2.1.7 software JUST FOR ME. I found an incorrectly labeled box, and it was fixed within hours and a new update was ready for me to download.





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Re: New $650 Toy :)
Tuesday, March 28, 2006 6:32 PM
Hey Shifted, have you done anything with your AFR yet? What's tuning that look like, sorry if I missed it, let me know if I did and I'll have a look again.



Re: New $650 Toy :)
Tuesday, March 28, 2006 7:21 PM
Shifted wrote:

I don't want to sound pissed off, but that hit a cord...

First off, the case is a similar design, yes, BUT the cuts where they connectors come through are professional, like it came out of the mold like that. These cases I'm sure, while probably made by the same people, are one of a kind for that interface.

Second, who the @!#$ cares if they make some money off the parts? Its NOT THE PARTS that you are paying for, its the engineering time and effort that went into product, not the cost of the parts, they are running a business, not a charity. You think the computer you're typing on is honestly worth more than $100-$200 in pure material costs?

Third, the programming may not be *all* that different from the F bodies and other vehicles they support, but it still requires effort to go through the bin files, find the tables, make definition files, change the software, make a new release, etc. Again, you aren't paying for the materials, you are paying for the engineering.

Lastly, if you guys want to go piss off the guys who are doing us a HUGE favor by cracking these cases open and calling what they are selling "cheap", then you are screwing us all. Understandably they can drop this product line if people go take thier @!#$ apart and start screwing with what we have. I certainly wouldn't support this vehicle line if you guys took my product apart and started going through my components. Its not what gets put in, its the effort that goes into designing the interface.

These guys stand behind thier product. If in a year you do have a solder joint fail (which I find highly unlikely), then I'm sure they will get it fixed to your satisfaction. When you guys see the level of support they are offering for your purchase, that alone right there is worth it. I emailed them on Saturday evening about a file I couldn't open, and I had an updated version of the software by Sunday afternoon, they reprogrammed and re-released the 2.1.7 software JUST FOR ME. I found an incorrectly labeled box, and it was fixed within hours and a new update was ready for me to download.


x2




RE Audio
Re: New $650 Toy :)
Tuesday, March 28, 2006 7:22 PM
Shifted wrote:First off, the case is a similar design, yes, BUT the cuts where they connectors come through are professional, like it came out of the mold like that. These cases I'm sure, while probably made by the same people, are one of a kind for that interface.


Jesus Ron. Chill out bud. I'm just going off of your pictures of the casing which are horrible at that. Learn how to use the macro function on your camera (that's not a bite at you. It would be a benefit to us if you did).

Cuts for connectors where they come through on the box can be done on any mill CNC or not. Big deal. Here's a pic of my MP3 player I made out of the same PacTel box with a hand driven mill:



Aside from the outer buttons, everything else looks very professional. Big deal! I'm not a professional machinist but I still managed to cut some holes correctly.

As far as the interface goes, let's see a macro shot of the connector. Chances are, I'll find another product somewhere on the web with it.

Shifted wrote:Second, who the @!#$ cares if they make some money off the parts? Its NOT THE PARTS that you are paying for, its the engineering time and effort that went into product, not the cost of the parts, they are running a business, not a charity. You think the computer you're typing on is honestly worth more than $100-$200 in pure material costs?


I could care less about the parts inside as well EXCEPT for that fact that I'd like to know that they used a professional board assembly house to assemble the parts in a proper environment to ensure that they will last a long time. My MP3 player I built and designed was baked in a $5,000 1/10th of a degree controllable oven to secure the surface mount devices. It would be nice if they used something like that rather than a toaster oven like the DIY people on the internet use to do surface mount stuff. I'm not implying either way. I'm just raising concerns.

The parts my computer were built with were assembled with very high quality controlled high volume machines or crazy Chinese woman that crank out tons of them constantly. Quality is ensured because I purchased my parts from multi-million dollar companies that crank the parts out in the thousands everyday. The selling point? Warranty.

Shifted wrote:Third, the programming may not be *all* that different from the F bodies and other vehicles they support, but it still requires effort to go through the bin files, find the tables, make definition files, change the software, make a new release, etc. Again, you aren't paying for the materials, you are paying for the engineering.


I can almost guarantee you that HP Tuners had an inside contact at GM that could get them everything they needed with regard to the bin files and how they are handled in a compiler to reverse engineer the code back to a useable state. It's just a matter of telling the code for their VCM suite how to handle the data.

Shifted wrote:Lastly, if you guys want to go piss off the guys who are doing us a HUGE favor by cracking these cases open and calling what they are selling "cheap", then you are screwing us all. Understandably they can drop this product line if people go take thier @!#$ apart and start screwing with what we have. I certainly wouldn't support this vehicle line if you guys took my product apart and started going through my components. Its not what gets put in, its the effort that goes into designing the interface.[/quote

My god, what a hypocritical statement. Do you realize that we're ALL taking apart GM's cars and modifying them?? They never dropped a single platform because of that. It would be foolish to do so. Not to mention, HP tuners and other companies had ECU reprogramming hardware and software on the market BEFORE the F-Body was discontinued.

I have a right to question the quality of something and the right to take things apart (with consequence of warranty of course). I'll be damned if they pull their product from the market because I'm concerned about it's material quality.

Oh and all of this nonsense you speak of could be avoided if YOU the self-chosen representative on JBO for HP Tuners would put in the FAQ their warranty statement regarding our specific product. If you actually read into what I was saying, that's all I'm trying to get out of this.

Shifted wrote:These guys stand behind thier product. If in a year you do have a solder joint fail (which I find highly unlikely), then I'm sure they will get it fixed to your satisfaction. When you guys see the level of support they are offering for your purchase, that alone right there is worth it. I emailed them on Saturday evening about a file I couldn't open, and I had an updated version of the software by Sunday afternoon, they reprogrammed and re-released the 2.1.7 software JUST FOR ME. I found an incorrectly labeled box, and it was fixed within hours and a new update was ready for me to download.


Can you back up that first sentence with anything other than your word??? That's what I'm concerned about. I'm not buying something for $650 if its gonna die on me in a year.

Software updates just for you? HAHAHAHA. Dude, you're a friggin beta tester. You're their tool to find problems for the rest of us.





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Re: New $650 Toy :)
Tuesday, March 28, 2006 7:23 PM
Blah. I screwed up the quoting. Read it all and you'll get the idea.




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Re: New $650 Toy :)
Tuesday, March 28, 2006 9:15 PM
Mr. Pute wrote:Blah. I screwed up the quoting. Read it all and you'll get the idea.


You need to get the hell off your high horse mister smarty pants, if this is all easy to you and not worth your 650 bucks then go make your own and sell it.

Who cares what controller chip is in the product, guess what, IT WORKS! and its the only one available, and there's a reason that this product hasn't been out until now and that reason is not because it was easy.

I have no problem paying for someone elses service and knowledge, it doesn't matter if I could do it all on my own, GUESS WHAT FOR 650 BUCKS ITS NOT WORTH MY TIME.
Stop judging someones product until you know something about it.


___________________________________________________________________

15.149 @ 91.26mph 3-18-2006
Re: New $650 Toy :)
Tuesday, March 28, 2006 9:23 PM
Just remember... HP Tuners isn't just a couple guys in a garage, they are a SuperChips (http://www.superchips.com) partnership company. If you want proof of how these guys stand behind thier product, go to thier website, and read through the reviews in the bugs/issues forum. They often do releases for people because they want to see a feature. For example, one guy wanted to be able to remap how the ECU read the fuel level sensor, he wanted to recalibrate the fuel gauge. This isn't a lot of use to anybody, but HPT did a special release for him to test out, then later added that to the software. Point being they didn't have to do all that work on a sunday just so I could use the software, that was beyond the service I've gotten from just about any other company, even the industrial products I use at work won't answer the phone after 5pm, and we pay 10's of thousands of dollars for that.

You might not think that what they did was "just for me", and while they really do have the bigger picture in mind, it was a pretty specific issue. I couldn't open my .hpt file, it said they didn't support it. They added the definition files, recompiled the software, and sent me the update. Then, when I finally did open it, and started looking at a confusing injector constant, I made a post in thier forum. Not 30 minutes later I had an email explaining exactly how to use that number (even though this information was not in the help file), and it made my car go from running like crap to idling like before I ever touched it.

As far as the assembly of the board, all of the equipment was outsourced as far as I know, probably through the same company that superchips uses to assemble thier handheld programmers. I don't believe they did any assembly of these devices themselves.

I will get you the warranty statement on the MVPI interface as soon as I can get my email and get a hold of Keith or Chris.

Perhaps it was the 6 hours I spent in a car with the most annoying person in the world today, or the lack of sleep, but I'm a bit on edge today and I do apologize for that. I just don't want people getting the idea that HPT is a hack company before you get the chance to see what they really do and what the quality of the product really is. Just because you can buy a similar case yourself from a budget company doesn't mean they are junk, they were just shopping for the best item for the money.

I do have an idea of how they got into the ECU and the information about how to flash the bin files, but its not as simple as a contact in GM. Hell GM doesn't even know, since they didn't write the ECU code (or manufacture the ECU's). There is still a considerable amount of work that went into the software. They aren't using anything they didn't write themselves. The entire VCM suite was written by HP Tuners, but some of the techniques were gotten elsewhere. They still must go through the files and find the tables, and reverse engineer the code to find what does what. This gets simpler with each ECU that they do, but it still takes work.





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Re: New $650 Toy :)
Tuesday, March 28, 2006 10:07 PM
hey ron , do you know if you change the idle speed with it ?







Re: New $650 Toy :)
Tuesday, March 28, 2006 10:11 PM
Yup, I changed mine to 1000 RPM's, its pretty easy, its a one line table of Desired Idle Speed vs ECT





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Re: New $650 Toy :)
Tuesday, March 28, 2006 10:12 PM
Shifted wrote:then recalibrate what "stoich" is to be 12.5 or whatever you want it to be.


wouldn't that screw the idle?

Re: New $650 Toy :)
Wednesday, March 29, 2006 6:08 AM
More pictures PLEASE!




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Re: New $650 Toy :)
Wednesday, March 29, 2006 7:28 AM
First off, Shifted, you're acting as if Mr Pute insulted your mother. Relax.

Quote:

Hell GM doesn't even know, since they didn't write the ECU code (or manufacture the ECU's).


I find it hard to believe that there isn't a single person working for GM who dosn't know how the ECU in their cars works. Much less "they didn't write the code." If that were the case engine design would be a nightmare, more so than it already is with the complicated physics, mechanics and electronics already involved with creating an engine to last 100,000 miles passing emissions. The easiest evendence of the falsehood of this statement are the reflashes available. How would GM ever figure out how to reprogram their own ECU for the S/C reflashes if they didn't know?

I have no doubt, however, that GM did not manufacture or initially program the ECU.



Re: New $650 Toy :)
Wednesday, March 29, 2006 7:48 AM
This seems like the answer to many tuning problems that have plagued j-bodies. I personally have a turbo eco and really need the 2 bar map support. Any idea on when that will be offered? I will be getting this as soon as this feature is supported.
Re: New $650 Toy :)
Wednesday, March 29, 2006 11:40 AM
Cherubim wrote:
Quote:

Hell GM doesn't even know, since they didn't write the ECU code (or manufacture the ECU's).

I find it hard to believe that there isn't a single person working for GM who dosn't know how the ECU in their cars works. Much less "they didn't write the code." If that were the case engine design would be a nightmare, more so than it already is with the complicated physics, mechanics and electronics already involved with creating an engine to last 100,000 miles passing emissions. The easiest evendence of the falsehood of this statement are the reflashes available. How would GM ever figure out how to reprogram their own ECU for the S/C reflashes if they didn't know?


GM didnt write the 2.4 S/C reflash......... I'm not positive on who wrote the Eco reflash.

rigatony wrote:This seems like the answer to many tuning problems that have plagued j-bodies. I personally have a turbo eco and really need the 2 bar map support. Any idea on when that will be offered? I will be getting this as soon as this feature is supported.


Why wait? Once the 2 bar OS is released, its a simple update/down load for it....... so why wait?




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Re: New $650 Toy :)
Wednesday, March 29, 2006 11:57 AM
2) stupid question but:

does this thing have to be pluged in at all times ?

can someone sorta explain the 1, 2 or 3 bar stuff ? little lost on that !!




wait for it... wait for it... NOW GO!! ---> '02 LS Sport <---
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Re: New $650 Toy :)
Wednesday, March 29, 2006 12:08 PM
it is simular to any other tuner, you plug it in to make your changes, and then you can unplug.

people asking about the 2.0 bar map, are peolpe who want to tune there computers (in conjuction with map sensor) to see boost, thus eliminting the need for FMU's .

Quote:

Why wait? Once the 2 bar OS is released, its a simple update/down load for it....... so why wait?


it could be 2 days from now, it could be 6 months or more, I will wait paitently till it does come out... I understand that a 1bar map see's 0-5v and a 2 or 3 bar map see's 0-5v, need to figure out some voltages, and you could "write your own s/c program" with fuel tables and timing tables unlocked you CAN DO ANYTHING. it may show up as atmospeheric pressure (4.9v or whatever) but you could program it to run for 28psi or whatever you want.




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Re: New $650 Toy :)
Wednesday, March 29, 2006 12:26 PM
SpeedRacerZ wrote:
Why wait? Once the 2 bar OS is released, its a simple update/down load for it....... so why wait?


Well it's kinda useless to me without it, isn't it? I mean, if I change some parameters and stuff and then upload to the ECU, won't I be uploading the 1 bar stock base code with it and poach my s/c program?


buzz122 wrote:can someone sorta explain the 1, 2 or 3 bar stuff ? little lost on that !!


Our cars have a MAP sensor to tell them what the air pressure is in the intake manifold. It's a metric sensor reading in bar. 1 bar = around 15 psi of pressure. 0 bar would be an absolute vacuum. 1 bar is generally what atmospheric pressure is.

Since these cars aren't boosted from the factory, there is no way for pressure in the manifold to go up over 1 bar, so they come with a 1 bar MAP sensor. That sensor tells the ECU the level of vacuum. When you're at wide open throttle and there's no vacuum, you'll get 1 bar.

If you add a turbo or supercharger though, you're now pressurizing the air in the manifold so it can be above 1 bar. Since the sensor can't measure anything above 1 bar, this becomes confusing and difficult to tune for.

Note that when people say they have "5 lbs of boost", they're referring to the pressure above atmospheric pressure that they're boosting to so 5 lbs of boost would be around 20 lbs of pressure in the manifold.

The GM supercharger kit comes with a 2 bar MAP sensor and the ECU program to recognize it. That means that people with the kit can see up to 2 bar of pressure, which is around 15 lbs of boost. It allows you to tune the car better since you can measure and recognize the boost coming in.

Of course, once you've gone beyond 15 lbs of boost, you're back in virgin territory and need to find your own 3 bar map sensor. There's currently no program that natively supports a 3 bar sensor so you end up having to spoof one of the current programs to do what you want based on the reading you're getting.

Hopefully this helps.





Re: New $650 Toy :)
Wednesday, March 29, 2006 12:37 PM
I dont think thats how it works. When HP offers 1 bar support (for cars with MAF sensors) and 2-3 bar support, its for systems that dont already have the support. Guys with the S/C reflash already have the programing for the 2 bar. HP only reads whats in the computer, and alows you to change things. It doesnt have our program already preloaded into it, you have to down load it. All it has is the definitions to the code. As soon as the cable shows up, I can try it out on a 2 bar system. What HP is offering is the ability to ADD a 2-bar MAP to our 1 bar systems, with their software....... if we already have the 2 bar, we're half way there.

I still stand by buying it now. That way more of their product is out there, and more incentive to offer upgrades to us (like the V8 guys have).




SPD RCR Z - '02 Z24 420whp
SLO GOAT - '04 GTO 305whp
W41 BOI - '78 Buick Opel Isuzu W41 Swap

Re: New $650 Toy :)
Wednesday, March 29, 2006 12:39 PM
Quote:


Why wait? Once the 2 bar OS is released, its a simple update/down load for it....... so why wait?


There is always a bit of doubt in my mind as to when this feature will be released. Dont get me wrong I am estatic about hptuners comming through on this, but there was quite the wait to get it released. I dont want to get this and have another extended wait till they come out with the 2 bar support. Without this feature I just cant justify spending this much money on it.
Re: New $650 Toy :)
Wednesday, March 29, 2006 12:42 PM
thank you, helps a lot............

Now, can you run a 2 bar sensor, w/o having boost in the car now ?
and
is it possible to run both, the 1 bar and the 2-3 bar sensor at the same time ?




wait for it... wait for it... NOW GO!! ---> '02 LS Sport <---
Yahoo IM : buzz122 AIM : buzz122cav

Re: New $650 Toy :)
Wednesday, March 29, 2006 12:58 PM
if you are running a 2 bar it sees everything that the 1 bar does,

and if you run a 3 bar, it sees everything that a 2 bar does (including what the 1 bar does)

you can run anyone of those without boost, but you will only use the 1 bar of the map sensor.


HP Tuners | Garrett T3/T04B | 2.5" Charge Pipes | 2.5" Downpipe | 650 Injectors | HO Manifold | Addco front/rear | Motor Mounts | HKS SSQV | Spec stage 3 | AEM UEGO Wideband | Team Green LSD | FMIC | 2.3 cams | 2.3 oil pump swap | 280WHP | Now ECOTECED

Re: New $650 Toy :)
Wednesday, March 29, 2006 1:00 PM
so could you use to program more then 1 car???? could you tune both your cavaliers??? or would you have to buy two seperate tuners for them both????


Thanx Charles
Re: New $650 Toy :)
Wednesday, March 29, 2006 1:03 PM
So, from what i undertsand, is there no 3 bar sensor for our cars, but theres a 2 bar sensor ? Or am i completly messing this up, and our computers just can't read the 3 bar sensor? If there is, where can i find it? ( piecing stuff together for a turbo ) and no, i really don't want to just pick up a kit......




wait for it... wait for it... NOW GO!! ---> '02 LS Sport <---
Yahoo IM : buzz122 AIM : buzz122cav
Re: New $650 Toy :)
Wednesday, March 29, 2006 1:05 PM
QUOTE]so could you use to program more then 1 car???? could you tune both your cavaliers???
please see "hptuners website" www.hptuners.com



Quote:

is there no 3 bar sensor for our cars, but theres a 2 bar sensor

please see " Boost forum" and use the search. [


HP Tuners | Garrett T3/T04B | 2.5" Charge Pipes | 2.5" Downpipe | 650 Injectors | HO Manifold | Addco front/rear | Motor Mounts | HKS SSQV | Spec stage 3 | AEM UEGO Wideband | Team Green LSD | FMIC | 2.3 cams | 2.3 oil pump swap | 280WHP | Now ECOTECED

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