AutoX, do you use the handbrake?? - Page 2 - Racing Forum

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Re: AutoX, do you use the handbrake??
Saturday, August 27, 2005 5:34 PM
i've always hurd ( from people who know what there talking about) that it mostly depends on your car and you suspension setup all it dose is induce oversteer and if you car is understeering hopefully natural understeer + induced oversteer will = nutral steer which is what you want in an auto-x situation

Re: AutoX, do you use the handbrake??
Sunday, August 28, 2005 2:40 PM
Dam-it Muffins (Event) wrote:
oldskoolz24 wrote:I don't think it originated in Japan...watch old clips from LeMans in the 50's and early 60's and you see it. Its mostly because the tires sucked and that was the fastest way around the corner. The grip of modern tires (ie. last 20 years) has made the technique obsolete except for show



big difference though.

their tires were a lack of grip back in the 50's and 60's.


however takahashi PURPOSELY used it in the 70;s. his tires didnt really have a grip problem, it was used solely to get around certain corners faster than other competitiors by keeping speed up a bit higher.

drifting now has become a technique thats used for show. however if you watch any current day touring car races, small hints of it can be seen here and there when needed. but with alot of the rules and restrictions, most try and keep their tires to last as long as possible per race.
watch sprint car's they drift but they call it the slide job drifting can be fast but it is very hard to hold a line.


see ya!

Re: AutoX, do you use the handbrake??
Sunday, August 28, 2005 5:35 PM
true....

thats the art part of it as well as the downfall for many...

able to hold a decent line.


traction and track surface is def a large part of it and control of the car. when they did rd 2 of the D1 on road atlanta they actually paved a horse shoe section just for the drifting.

just hoping someone other than hubinette wins the overall.



Re: AutoX, do you use the handbrake??
Monday, August 29, 2005 6:17 AM
Dam-it Muffins (Event) wrote:
Rodimus Prime wrote:No real racer drifts because all it does is scrub off time, if you know how to drive you never will drift in the first place, style points only make gains in need for speed underground not in any form of real racing. The object is to get through the corner as fast as possible and straight to setup for the next corner, flat spotting the tires achieves nothing. If your tires are spinning...your losing time.


actually drifting came about from japanese race drivers that used it to get around the turns quicker than americans and also europeans. many times if done right you can carry more entry speed and exit speed out of a turn...

the downside of why its not rampantly used is that it wears tires faster.

so know what you speak on before spouting off about "no real racer"

Quote:

Drifting started out as a racing technique popular in the All Japan Touring Car Championship races over 30 years ago. A legendary driver named Kunimitsu Takahashi was the foremost practitioner of drifting techniques in the 1970's. Takahashi's aggressive drifting skills — he was famous for hitting the apex (the point where the car is closest to the inside of a turn) at high speed and then drifting through the corner, preserving a high rate of speed — earned him several championships and a legion of fans who enjoyed the spectacle of burning tires and perilous speed.


as it stands most drifting cars are taking some turns upwards of 10-15 mph faster than those who drive though without.




use ebrake in autoX... nah... the key is keeping momentum throughout...


From what I have learned there is a difference between a show drift and a good slip angle, most of everything you see in drifting videos is for show. I would think a professional in first trying to draw a gap is gonna step the rear end out 20 to 30 feet before a corner, it would be too risky(if he should spin or possible like you say wear the tires or worse have a part fail) But kinda whiping the car into a corner so the tail steps about a foot isn't too bad, like if your car has good initial turn in but you know it will turn in to understeer this can help you out. The main part is getting the car rotated for the exit of the corner, it's a fine line all my opinion of course.


Ryan Butchart 1 man, 1 car, 1 lap at a time.

Re: AutoX, do you use the handbrake??
Monday, August 29, 2005 12:23 PM
also something else to look at is your definition of drift.

There's a proper term for it but I don't think it's slip angle. (It's in the book Secrets of SOLO Racing )

But, at the limits of your car you can get some nuetral drift, where the car will actually shift /4-wheel drift at an angle slightly off of your inteded course. Nuetral steer, not oversteer or understeer.

ex. your taking a LONG right sweeper, as you exit the turn the car moves sideways slightly while your lining up for the straight. Typically at an angle less than 3 degrees to the direction of your tires I believe is considered wighin acceptable range and not detrimental to your time.

I've only had this happen once in my car at an autox, but it's a really cool feeling being on the edge of Grip (this was on Yokohama AO-32r's).


-Chris

Re: AutoX, do you use the handbrake??
Monday, August 29, 2005 1:42 PM
soloZ wrote:
Dam-it Muffins (Event) wrote:
Rodimus Prime wrote:No real racer drifts because all it does is scrub off time, if you know how to drive you never will drift in the first place, style points only make gains in need for speed underground not in any form of real racing. The object is to get through the corner as fast as possible and straight to setup for the next corner, flat spotting the tires achieves nothing. If your tires are spinning...your losing time.


actually drifting came about from japanese race drivers that used it to get around the turns quicker than americans and also europeans. many times if done right you can carry more entry speed and exit speed out of a turn...

the downside of why its not rampantly used is that it wears tires faster.

so know what you speak on before spouting off about "no real racer"

Quote:

Drifting started out as a racing technique popular in the All Japan Touring Car Championship races over 30 years ago. A legendary driver named Kunimitsu Takahashi was the foremost practitioner of drifting techniques in the 1970's. Takahashi's aggressive drifting skills — he was famous for hitting the apex (the point where the car is closest to the inside of a turn) at high speed and then drifting through the corner, preserving a high rate of speed — earned him several championships and a legion of fans who enjoyed the spectacle of burning tires and perilous speed.


as it stands most drifting cars are taking some turns upwards of 10-15 mph faster than those who drive though without.




use ebrake in autoX... nah... the key is keeping momentum throughout...


From what I have learned there is a difference between a show drift and a good slip angle, most of everything you see in drifting videos is for show. I would think a professional in first trying to draw a gap is gonna step the rear end out 20 to 30 feet before a corner, it would be too risky(if he should spin or possible like you say wear the tires or worse have a part fail) But kinda whiping the car into a corner so the tail steps about a foot isn't too bad, like if your car has good initial turn in but you know it will turn in to understeer this can help you out. The main part is getting the car rotated for the exit of the corner, it's a fine line all my opinion of course.



thats the thing, i;ve seen the drifitng videos and even went to a drfting event....

thats now, however watch some of the older videos of the driver i posted about....totally different thing and the way it was used, however the same method.



Re: AutoX, do you use the handbrake??
Tuesday, August 30, 2005 12:12 AM
i just thought of somthing. when drifting into a sweeper and you nail the apex how do you put power down when your tires are already spinning ooops


see ya!

Re: AutoX, do you use the handbrake??
Wednesday, August 31, 2005 8:32 PM
novaracer wrote:i just thought of somthing. when drifting into a sweeper and you nail the apex how do you put power down when your tires are already spinning ooops


ease off the gas and get grip then punch it again.... gotta know your car as well as your tires though.... also depends on the angle you are at... the more the car is 45 degrees or more away from being pointed at the apex, the easier it is...



Re: AutoX, do you use the handbrake??
Thursday, September 01, 2005 1:18 PM
Dam-it Muffins (Event) wrote:
novaracer wrote:i just thought of somthing. when drifting into a sweeper and you nail the apex how do you put power down when your tires are already spinning ooops


ease off the gas and get grip then punch it again.... gotta know your car as well as your tires though.... also depends on the angle you are at... the more the car is 45 degrees or more away from being pointed at the apex, the easier it is...


that always works for me

I let my brother drive my car in an autox once and I had to teach him that finer element. He was leaving too much rubber to help the competition grip around that turn and burning up my r-comps at the same time.

I still beat him by 2 seconds so it's all good


-Chris

Re: AutoX, do you use the handbrake??
Friday, September 09, 2005 8:22 AM
AutoXFool wrote:Ebrake + autoX = moron.

Enuf said.


Wll, I'm new here, and apparently a moron. : )

Anyways, no you shouldn't use an e-brake in autoslalom,. period.

I did once, and it worked (luckily), however, it was my slowest run that day. I came into a 180 degree corner too fast and my stock (at the time ) Cavalier needed persuasion to turn, and a quick twist of the wheel and a pull of the e-brake handle did the trick, no cones, no off course, lots of smoke, and a slow turn to boot! : )

Brian P
Re: AutoX, do you use the handbrake??
Tuesday, September 13, 2005 1:51 AM
only time i saw someone use the e-brake in an auto-x was the last one i was at
this chick was in a BMW 318i (i think, itt was def a BMW tho)
and the last turn was a nice left hand 90
well she was goin way too fast and pulled it as she turn the wheel
well she got it up on 2 tires and about flipped it
scared the piss outta her, she just kinda sat there for awhile
so no, dont use the e-brake unless you are completely sure of what you are doin




Re: AutoX, do you use the handbrake??
Tuesday, September 13, 2005 11:19 AM
i only raced one event, but i took a class for auto-x. i feel more in control when i have a bit of oversteer. my advice to the beginner is to go at like 60%-75% the first time out. don't push it to hard. get a feel for the car. everybody talks about the apexi and all. don't worry it will all come later. when you get a feel for the car push it harder. then it becomes fun. most of the other guys wouldn't give you a hard time because you didn't push it at 100% the first time out. and tire psi does make a differenvie. i took off 2 seconds by bumping it up to 40. but other in the front.... couldn't get the rear covers off.


anybody going to the event at miller park this weekend??



Re: AutoX, do you use the handbrake??
Monday, September 26, 2005 1:35 PM
about the only time I've ever used the E-brake was when I had a good run in and was experimenting.

The course that day had at least 1 180 degree pivot. I had nice sticky falken azenis sports for shoes, my suspension done up as per my registry.

I was about the middle of 2nd gear, turned the wheel and got some nice initial bite and popped the handbrake. The back end swung around and I planted my foot firmly in the gas to keep the front end the right direction and away I went. Might not have been the fastest way around, but god was it fun.

Actually was a little bit faster that run, but probably not due to that, I was pushing pretty hard the rest of the course and managed to get by with some stuff

I already had a couple of decent clean runs in, so at that point it was balls to the wall time and see if i can't keep it clean Sometimes works and I get nice times, the rest of the time I end up making the course workers run. hehe, payback for hitting cones when I'm working course.


-------------------------------------------------
Sleeper style, they don't see it coming that way.
Re: AutoX, do you use the handbrake??
Monday, October 17, 2005 7:59 PM
I've used it sucessfully in certain places in winter autocrosses before I had my rear sway bar, but it's a delicate procedure. It'll shave a tenth off if you do it right; it'll burn 2 seconds if you don't quite hit the sweet spot.

Or if you've blasted off course, and want to do an on-the-spot airport loop

So, like everyone else says, generally no.



Re: AutoX, do you use the handbrake??
Wednesday, October 19, 2005 2:24 PM
I think the important thing to remember is that using the e-brake is a trick to getting around corners. not the trick.
Re: AutoX, do you use the handbrake??
Friday, October 28, 2005 6:09 PM
I AutoX a stock 4 dr 01 sunfire, and i have never used the handbrake, the best bet is to get to know the course first so you have an idea of where you want to be in the turns. As for sliding out your rear end, its not that great of an idea unless you can control it, being a novice at it, this could come up on you quicker than you think, and your recovery time is going to hurt your track time. Back to my original point, the best bet with a 90 degree turn is to come into the turn under control, gear down, then accelerate hard out as soon as you start to straighten up. Good luck and have fun on the track

2001 Sunfire, 2.2L
Automatic
4Dr
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