How To: HP Tuners and GM Eco S/C, Fake 2.5 Bar - Page 3 - Tuning Forum

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Re: How To: HP Tuners and GM Eco S/C, Fake 2.5 Bar
Wednesday, February 25, 2009 7:46 AM
(Tom) S/C Fire wrote:

Update: (this is all on the stock 3.34 inch pulley)

So i spent a couple hours today trying to tune my car. I got the high rpm ve's dialed in. Right at 135% (35 is my offset so that is the max). Now the biggest problem now is the car idles at 10-1 afr. realllllly rich, Now being tired of it being so rich at idle, I changed most of the idle ve to 35 which is the minimum ve possible, it still idles at 10-1. what am I doing wrong, John do you have this same problem?

I also worried that I won't be able to tune it for the 42lb injectors I have and the 3.0 pulley. How would I change my injector constant?


Before I tell you to do something, let me make sure I understand correctly. Before your tuning of the VE tables (and maybe some now too) your idle was too rich and your high rpm's were too lean? You then changed the VE tables and still have a rich idle but the high rpm's are right? What are your short and long term fuel trims doing? Are you in a cold weather area? It seems for some reason my car idles rich at first when it's cold outside, but then after that it goes back to normal. Also, are you using histograms in your logging to make sure you get the right cells updated for the tuning part? Any other details you think might be useful? As fro the injector pulse width modifier to help at 20-30 kpa..yes I believe that is a possibility as well. I believe with a bigger than 1 bar sensor it can also help into boost, but some people disagree with that. It's been so long since I actually messed with it that I don't have any solid proof in front of me now but I'm pretty sure it can (and did for me) make a difference. But for idle, I definitely think it can be beneficial.

Re: How To: HP Tuners and GM Eco S/C, Fake 2.5 Bar
Wednesday, February 25, 2009 7:47 AM
Also I want to look into the offset some more. If I remember right mine isn't that high, but I'd like to double check exactly how it works before telling you to change it.
Re: How To: HP Tuners and GM Eco S/C, Fake 2.5 Bar
Wednesday, February 25, 2009 2:21 PM
sent ya a pm john with a few questions

but just in case john is busy, i attempted this today since i dont know where to wire in the 1 bar map sensor plug and its not color coated, all the wires are white so thats why im attempting to do this.

anyway, i divided MAP cell values by 2.5 and changed the injector constant to 0.27000 and it would only run for a second, put the injector constant up gradually and got to 0.30000 and it still wouldnt run. so i think i may have done something wrong or i need to tune some fuel stuff.. anyone who got this to work have any info they could share? i have the tune and my base tune in a zip file i could email if needed.

also im wondering how to get hte AEM UEGO wideband to work... hooked up the white wire to pin 1 and a ground wire to pin 5, added the gauge to my config with PID wideband 02 - AEM, wouldnt show any data. i also tried making a histogram of it using the air fuel ratio sensor, that didnt seem to work so i just switched it to engine speed vs manifold absolute pressure, ill have to see if that works later. is anyone using the AEM UEGO with HPT? how did you set it up for histograms and the gauge?


thanks ahead of time



12.33 @ 111.67 mph [Oct 2009]
Dyno'd on 08/02/09 - Mustang Dyno:
327.6 WHP 333.6 WTQ [10.1 AFR]
Re: How To: HP Tuners and GM Eco S/C, Fake 2.5 Bar
Wednesday, February 25, 2009 6:40 PM
John02 wrote:

(Tom) S/C Fire wrote:

Update: (this is all on the stock 3.34 inch pulley)

So i spent a couple hours today trying to tune my car. I got the high rpm ve's dialed in. Right at 135% (35 is my offset so that is the max). Now the biggest problem now is the car idles at 10-1 afr. realllllly rich, Now being tired of it being so rich at idle, I changed most of the idle ve to 35 which is the minimum ve possible, it still idles at 10-1. what am I doing wrong, John do you have this same problem?

I also worried that I won't be able to tune it for the 42lb injectors I have and the 3.0 pulley. How would I change my injector constant?


Before I tell you to do something, let me make sure I understand correctly. Before your tuning of the VE tables (and maybe some now too) your idle was too rich and your high rpm's were too lean? You then changed the VE tables and still have a rich idle but the high rpm's are right? What are your short and long term fuel trims doing? Are you in a cold weather area? It seems for some reason my car idles rich at first when it's cold outside, but then after that it goes back to normal. Also, are you using histograms in your logging to make sure you get the right cells updated for the tuning part? Any other details you think might be useful? As fro the injector pulse width modifier to help at 20-30 kpa..yes I believe that is a possibility as well. I believe with a bigger than 1 bar sensor it can also help into boost, but some people disagree with that. It's been so long since I actually messed with it that I don't have any solid proof in front of me now but I'm pretty sure it can (and did for me) make a difference. But for idle, I definitely think it can be beneficial.


Yeah, put in the .2700 constant. Turned off closed loop and DFCO. ipw mult. at 1. all the way across. turn on the car and it idles really rich. So I logged just the idle ve in my histograms for a while and did the whole multiply %. Which at the time the histogram is telling me -20 or more at 800 and 1000. So I change the idle ve in the editor. Flash it, cycle the key once, start logging and the same thing, no change. The histograms are still telling me -20 or more. No what I think is weird, is the idle graph is based on map and it looks like the editor values are backwards the values start at 80 kpa and decend from there. ex: the 80 kpa and 400 rpm cell the ve is 41. And the 0 kpa and 400 rpm cell the ve is 71. Looks backwards. I've tried tuning it both ways, tried changing all the ve's to 35. Nothing works.

Now on the other hand I got all the high rpm ve's tuned to my commanded afr which is nice.
The LTFT is telling it to subtract fuel.



evilmonkitar wrote:

sent ya a pm john with a few questions

but just in case john is busy, i attempted this today since i dont know where to wire in the 1 bar map sensor plug and its not color coated, all the wires are white so thats why im attempting to do this.

anyway, i divided MAP cell values by 2.5 and changed the injector constant to 0.27000 and it would only run for a second, put the injector constant up gradually and got to 0.30000 and it still wouldnt run. so i think i may have done something wrong or i need to tune some fuel stuff.. anyone who got this to work have any info they could share? i have the tune and my base tune in a zip file i could email if needed.

also im wondering how to get hte AEM UEGO wideband to work... hooked up the white wire to pin 1 and a ground wire to pin 5, added the gauge to my config with PID wideband 02 - AEM, wouldnt show any data. i also tried making a histogram of it using the air fuel ratio sensor, that didnt seem to work so i just switched it to engine speed vs manifold absolute pressure, ill have to see if that works later. is anyone using the AEM UEGO with HPT? how did you set it up for histograms and the gauge?


thanks ahead of time


For the 2.5 bar fake map you need the stock 2.5 bar sensor.
I also have an AEM wideband. Does the wideband work just not on the scanner?
Go to the Table (primary) emblem in the main screen, it should show you a list of all the pids available. Now at the bottom there are 4 open slots for external signals, right click and choose insert, then choose the AEM wideband that is pre-setup.



Re: How To: HP Tuners and GM Eco S/C, Fake 2.5 Bar
Wednesday, February 25, 2009 8:34 PM
evilmonkitar wrote:

sent ya a pm john with a few questions

but just in case john is busy, i attempted this today since i dont know where to wire in the 1 bar map sensor plug and its not color coated, all the wires are white so thats why im attempting to do this.

anyway, i divided MAP cell values by 2.5 and changed the injector constant to 0.27000 and it would only run for a second, put the injector constant up gradually and got to 0.30000 and it still wouldnt run. so i think i may have done something wrong or i need to tune some fuel stuff.. anyone who got this to work have any info they could share? i have the tune and my base tune in a zip file i could email if needed.

also im wondering how to get the AEM UEGO wideband to work... hooked up the white wire to pin 1 and a ground wire to pin 5, added the gauge to my config with PID wideband 02 - AEM, wouldnt show any data. i also tried making a histogram of it using the air fuel ratio sensor, that didnt seem to work so i just switched it to engine speed vs manifold absolute pressure, ill have to see if that works later. is anyone using the AEM UEGO with HPT? how did you set it up for histograms and the gauge?


thanks ahead of time


For the 2.5 bar fake map you need the stock 2.5 bar sensor.
I also have an AEM wideband. Does the wideband work just not on the scanner?
Go to the Table (primary) emblem in the main screen, it should show you a list of all the pids available. Now at the bottom there are 4 open slots for external signals, right click and choose insert, then choose the AEM wideband that is pre-setup.

yea, got the 2.5 bar, was just saying im going to try to do the fake 2.5 with the TMAP because i dont know how to re-wire the 1 bar back in. yea the wideband wont work with the scanner. i have the custom PID for AEM selected and air fuel ratio on the x axis. is it touchy with grounds? because i grounded it to the same place i have my water/meth stuff grounded. hmm ill try doing it in the primary table window too and test it tomorrow on the way to class.

any clues about getting the car running at least? should i try putting the IPW multipliers all at 1 as well?

thanks



12.33 @ 111.67 mph [Oct 2009]
Dyno'd on 08/02/09 - Mustang Dyno:
327.6 WHP 333.6 WTQ [10.1 AFR]
Re: How To: HP Tuners and GM Eco S/C, Fake 2.5 Bar
Wednesday, February 25, 2009 8:50 PM
If you go to the help screen in the scanner it will tell you with pictures how to set up a aux wideband. But you definatly have to input you AEM wideband in the table (primary)
This will make it so it logs you wideband.
Then you can setup your histograms like you mentioned.



Re: How To: HP Tuners and GM Eco S/C, Fake 2.5 Bar
Thursday, February 26, 2009 7:30 AM
(Tom) S/C Fire wrote:

John02 wrote:

(Tom) S/C Fire wrote:

Update: (this is all on the stock 3.34 inch pulley)

So i spent a couple hours today trying to tune my car. I got the high rpm ve's dialed in. Right at 135% (35 is my offset so that is the max). Now the biggest problem now is the car idles at 10-1 afr. realllllly rich, Now being tired of it being so rich at idle, I changed most of the idle ve to 35 which is the minimum ve possible, it still idles at 10-1. what am I doing wrong, John do you have this same problem?

I also worried that I won't be able to tune it for the 42lb injectors I have and the 3.0 pulley. How would I change my injector constant?


Before I tell you to do something, let me make sure I understand correctly. Before your tuning of the VE tables (and maybe some now too) your idle was too rich and your high rpm's were too lean? You then changed the VE tables and still have a rich idle but the high rpm's are right? What are your short and long term fuel trims doing? Are you in a cold weather area? It seems for some reason my car idles rich at first when it's cold outside, but then after that it goes back to normal. Also, are you using histograms in your logging to make sure you get the right cells updated for the tuning part? Any other details you think might be useful? As fro the injector pulse width modifier to help at 20-30 kpa..yes I believe that is a possibility as well. I believe with a bigger than 1 bar sensor it can also help into boost, but some people disagree with that. It's been so long since I actually messed with it that I don't have any solid proof in front of me now but I'm pretty sure it can (and did for me) make a difference. But for idle, I definitely think it can be beneficial.


Yeah, put in the .2700 constant. Turned off closed loop and DFCO. ipw mult. at 1. all the way across. turn on the car and it idles really rich. So I logged just the idle ve in my histograms for a while and did the whole multiply %. Which at the time the histogram is telling me -20 or more at 800 and 1000. So I change the idle ve in the editor. Flash it, cycle the key once, start logging and the same thing, no change. The histograms are still telling me -20 or more. No what I think is weird, is the idle graph is based on map and it looks like the editor values are backwards the values start at 80 kpa and decend from there. ex: the 80 kpa and 400 rpm cell the ve is 41. And the 0 kpa and 400 rpm cell the ve is 71. Looks backwards. I've tried tuning it both ways, tried changing all the ve's to 35. Nothing works.

Now on the other hand I got all the high rpm ve's tuned to my commanded afr which is nice.
The LTFT is telling it to subtract fuel.



evilmonkitar wrote:

sent ya a pm john with a few questions

but just in case john is busy, i attempted this today since i dont know where to wire in the 1 bar map sensor plug and its not color coated, all the wires are white so thats why im attempting to do this.

anyway, i divided MAP cell values by 2.5 and changed the injector constant to 0.27000 and it would only run for a second, put the injector constant up gradually and got to 0.30000 and it still wouldnt run. so i think i may have done something wrong or i need to tune some fuel stuff.. anyone who got this to work have any info they could share? i have the tune and my base tune in a zip file i could email if needed.

also im wondering how to get hte AEM UEGO wideband to work... hooked up the white wire to pin 1 and a ground wire to pin 5, added the gauge to my config with PID wideband 02 - AEM, wouldnt show any data. i also tried making a histogram of it using the air fuel ratio sensor, that didnt seem to work so i just switched it to engine speed vs manifold absolute pressure, ill have to see if that works later. is anyone using the AEM UEGO with HPT? how did you set it up for histograms and the gauge?


thanks ahead of time


For the 2.5 bar fake map you need the stock 2.5 bar sensor.
I also have an AEM wideband. Does the wideband work just not on the scanner?
Go to the Table (primary) emblem in the main screen, it should show you a list of all the pids available. Now at the bottom there are 4 open slots for external signals, right click and choose insert, then choose the AEM wideband that is pre-setup.


To answer your question about the map readings going in backwards order, it's because that is basically as if it's vaccuum. So these are NOT absolute readings. They are relative to the pressure at sea-level which is 1 atm or 14.7 psi or about 101 kpa...so what that means...is since the map sensor measures in absolute (not relative) terms...that if it says 20 kpa that's really about 81kpa into vaccuum (101-20=81)....or if the map says 60kpa that's really about 41 kpa into vaccuum. To confuse matters even more, that's just the concept for a regular 1 bar sensor, that doesn't take into account the 2.5 bar fake. However, this is actually the key to why I believe tables with map readings even if they're only normally thought of as vaccuum, could extend into boost. For example...that same 60kpa reading on the 2.5 bar gauge actually means 150 kpa (60 * 2.5 = 150). So, we've actually entered into boost by about 49kpa but it still falls onto the axis for what would normally be vaccuum. Note: the same is true with the ipw mult table.

As for how it sounds like your tuning, it sounds like a legit approach, but I'm wondering if some detail might be off. If you want you can send me your tune and I can take a look. PM me if interested.

Also, are you in a cold weather area? Does the idle stay rich even after the car warms up?
Re: How To: HP Tuners and GM Eco S/C, Fake 2.5 Bar
Thursday, February 26, 2009 6:50 PM
Thanks for your help, It was a nice 70-75 F out today. California. Yeah it stays rich with closed loop turned off. Open loop still on the rich side, it says LTFT is at -100 and idles about 12=1



Edited 1 time(s). Last edited Thursday, February 26, 2009 7:04 PM


Re: How To: HP Tuners and GM Eco S/C, Fake 2.5 Bar
Thursday, February 26, 2009 7:49 PM
I appreciate the insight about the idle graph and ipw mult. being based off of vaccum. It really sheds some light as to why the graph is like that. And I tried changing the 0- 30 on the IPW mult. Maybe that's why nothing changed at idle, lol.



Re: How To: HP Tuners and GM Eco S/C, Fake 2.5 Bar
Saturday, February 28, 2009 11:03 PM
ok guys i have hp tuners pro on the way and would like to clearify something on this tune. i am going to do a saab turbo set up on my car and was told the 2.5 bar tune would work great with it but from reading this post you all say you have to use the 2.5 bar tmap inorder to do the "fake" 2.5 bar tune? if not the tmap what sensor? and where can i get it? thanks a bunch..



Re: How To: HP Tuners and GM Eco S/C, Fake 2.5 Bar
Sunday, March 01, 2009 2:14 AM
the post also states if you dont have the 2.5 bar, for example having a 2 bar, you just follow the same steps except divide cell values by 2 instead of 2.5. you could probably get the sensors from zzperformance.com, crateenginedepot.com or gmpartsdirect.com. one of those should have what you are looking for



12.33 @ 111.67 mph [Oct 2009]
Dyno'd on 08/02/09 - Mustang Dyno:
327.6 WHP 333.6 WTQ [10.1 AFR]

Re: How To: HP Tuners and GM Eco S/C, Fake 2.5 Bar
Sunday, March 01, 2009 9:58 AM
yeah thats cool man i'll look later on.... but i got really confused because of this from the very first post...


"NO, there are no complicated rewiring or sensor swaps required"



Re: How To: HP Tuners and GM Eco S/C, Fake 2.5 Bar
Tuesday, March 03, 2009 7:31 AM
SLO CAV (the autoxing one) wrote:

yeah thats cool man i'll look later on.... but i got really confused because of this from the very first post...


"NO, there are no complicated rewiring or sensor swaps required"


Sorry, I should have prefaced that with if you have the eco s/c kit already then there is n o complicated rewiring or sensor swaps (because you already have the TMAP from the s/c kit. As someone else said, you could use a 2 bar sensor as well just with modified math.
Re: How To: HP Tuners and GM Eco S/C, Fake 2.5 Bar
Tuesday, March 03, 2009 7:35 AM
(Tom) S/C Fire wrote:

Thanks for your help, It was a nice 70-75 F out today. California. Yeah it stays rich with closed loop turned off. Open loop still on the rich side, it says LTFT is at -100 and idles about 12=1


My first guess from that would be that even though you're compensating with the low values for the ve tables and the LTFT is compensating by taking away fuel too that the injector constant is too high, but it sounded like you had to do that to get the high rpm's. You shouldn't have that problem, so I'll need to look at the tune you sent me to see if anything stands out. Do you have any other fuel management going on? Like with an fmu or anything? Sorry, I've been busy lately and haven't gotten a chance to check your tune out yet, but I will try to get to it soon.
Re: How To: HP Tuners and GM Eco S/C, Fake 2.5 Bar
Tuesday, March 03, 2009 7:28 PM
No stock fuel system



Re: How To: HP Tuners and GM Eco S/C, Fake 2.5 Bar
Wednesday, March 18, 2009 10:28 PM
In case anyone with the fake 2.5 bar wants to put a boost gauge in HPT to see how much boost you are running.. here is the function i came up with

(([SENS.30.MET] * 2.5) - 101.325) / 6.894757

just configured that, havent tested it yet but it should work..



12.33 @ 111.67 mph [Oct 2009]
Dyno'd on 08/02/09 - Mustang Dyno:
327.6 WHP 333.6 WTQ [10.1 AFR]
Re: How To: HP Tuners and GM Eco S/C, Fake 2.5 Bar
Friday, March 20, 2009 3:11 PM
will also add something else. the constant im using for 440cc injectors with the fake 2.5 bar. just did it and it seems like it works, did some logging going to fuel tune in a minute on the way to work and see how it goes. heres the math:

0.270000 * (380/440) = 0.2331818181818182

0.270000 * (36/42) = 0.23142857142857

0.2331818181818182 - 0.23142857142857 = 0.00175324675325

0.00175324675325 / 2 = 0.0008776623376625

0.2331818181818182 - 0.0008776623376625 = 0.2323051948052

so i used that and am using currently for 42# (440cc) injectors with a fake 2.5 bar tune: 0.23230


seems to work decent right now, will know more this weekend.



12.33 @ 111.67 mph [Oct 2009]
Dyno'd on 08/02/09 - Mustang Dyno:
327.6 WHP 333.6 WTQ [10.1 AFR]
Re: How To: HP Tuners and GM Eco S/C, Fake 2.5 Bar
Wednesday, April 01, 2009 11:57 PM
More info for this:

I actually got the car to run with the "correct" injector constant [(old constant * (old size/new size))]

What I had to do was increase my VE offset to get more fuel in there. Since it wouldnt start i just assumed it was too lean so thats why i thought of playing with the VE offset

First i started off by increase the VE offset from 20% to 60%, after i flashed that and tried to start it and it didnt run, i just added 40% to the idle table only. that actually let the car idle. i still couldnt drive it though.

To get it to drive, i boosted the constant to 75% and subtracted 15% from the idle table after (tried to keep the numbers the same since it idled fine with them). i was able to barely drive it and i just kept increasing values from there.

I ended up with a 99% VE offset in the end, and that still wasnt enough fuel at the top, so what I did was use the IPW vs VAC table and increased the multiplier over 1.0 to around 1.25 for now and it seems to get enough fuel at the top end. still working out some minor fueling issues, but its drivable and stable. Only issue right now is KR because my AFRs are slightly lean in some spots, but that is what im fixing with the multipliers.

So, to use the correct injector constant (which i think is probably important to get the correct injector duty cycle (which i was told would not be correct with a constant that high)), put the calculated constant in, increase your VE offset if your car wont start after, and once you can get it to start and drive, use the histograms after that to get proper fueling. once you feel like your VE tables and offset are as high as they will go or in the correct spot, play with the IPW vs VAC multiplier to get more fuel if needed.

Hope this helps some people who are trying to do the fake 2.5 bar. this is pretty much what i did today after class,before work,after work, hopefully the tune im flashing on in the morning (minor fuel tweaks with closed loop re-enabled) works well.

Also a TIP for fuel tuning, the low rpm and high rpm VE tables overlap. they both have a 3800 RPM column, but the high rpm table doesnt have as many TPS percentages as the low one. just make sure they match at each TPS %. i guess they dont HAVE to, but i had a lean spike when i was driving and it was annoying and i realized this was the culprit, so i matched them. havent extensively tested that tweak yet, that will happen maybe tomorrow and probably friday, but from the 2 runs i did with that change, i didnt notice that lean spike anymore.

thats it for now, time to get some sleep..







Edited 2 time(s). Last edited Thursday, April 02, 2009 12:00 AM


12.33 @ 111.67 mph [Oct 2009]
Dyno'd on 08/02/09 - Mustang Dyno:
327.6 WHP 333.6 WTQ [10.1 AFR]
Re: How To: HP Tuners and GM Eco S/C, Fake 2.5 Bar
Wednesday, May 13, 2009 10:35 PM
I hope to be testing this method of tuning out within the next month. Thanks for all the info everyone.
Re: How To: HP Tuners and GM Eco S/C, Fake 2.5 Bar
Thursday, May 14, 2009 12:19 PM
I was thinking.......in order to gain some resolution could one input the values of the 2.5 bar sensor that they would actually be using instead of all the way up the range?
For example with my setup I make 10psi: Could I get away with putting in the values for a 2 bar sensor (or a little less depending on how picky I get) since I go nowhere near the limit of the 2.5 bar one?
Re: How To: HP Tuners and GM Eco S/C, Fake 2.5 Bar
Friday, May 15, 2009 1:42 PM
the wizard wrote:

I was thinking.......in order to gain some resolution could one input the values of the 2.5 bar sensor that they would actually be using instead of all the way up the range?
For example with my setup I make 10psi: Could I get away with putting in the values for a 2 bar sensor (or a little less depending on how picky I get) since I go nowhere near the limit of the 2.5 bar one?


Well the problem with that is that if you're using the 2.5 bar sensor, it automatically sees the values all the way up to full voltage which corresponds to 2.5 bar, so we don't have an option to adjust the values on the axis. When I talked about the values of the axis being 2.5 times what they actually read in hp tuners with the fake 2.5 bar tune, it's because that's how it's reading, not because we actually changed anything on the axis itself. So, that's why we move/change the values in the cells of the table to make up for that change in how the axis would effectively look. Hope that makes sense, if not please let me know, and I'll try to explain it better.

Re: How To: HP Tuners and GM Eco S/C, Fake 2.5 Bar
Friday, May 15, 2009 2:32 PM
tom, did that tune work out for you?



12.33 @ 111.67 mph [Oct 2009]
Dyno'd on 08/02/09 - Mustang Dyno:
327.6 WHP 333.6 WTQ [10.1 AFR]
Re: How To: HP Tuners and GM Eco S/C, Fake 2.5 Bar
Friday, May 15, 2009 5:49 PM
Yeah, I actually got it running yesterday, the high rpm table is pretty solid (I put in the 42's). Idle afr is still weird, but I guess that's what closed loop is for. lol


EDIT: Thanks a bunch man.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edited Friday, May 15, 2009 5:50 PM


Re: How To: HP Tuners and GM Eco S/C, Fake 2.5 Bar
Sunday, May 17, 2009 8:30 AM
cool glad it worked.

yea idle is still weird but the fuel trims take care of that



12.33 @ 111.67 mph [Oct 2009]
Dyno'd on 08/02/09 - Mustang Dyno:
327.6 WHP 333.6 WTQ [10.1 AFR]
Re: How To: HP Tuners and GM Eco S/C, Fake 2.5 Bar
Sunday, May 17, 2009 8:46 AM
Are you guys changing all your map value tables, or just the timing ones?
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