Those with Emanage and low imped injectors... - Page 2 - Tuning Forum

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Re: Those with Emanage and low imped injectors...
Wednesday, November 09, 2005 10:06 PM
Am I missing something here? To convert from saturated injectors to peak and hold you have to run a resistor box.




I was a retard, and now I'm permanently banned.

Re: Those with Emanage and low imped injectors...
Wednesday, November 09, 2005 10:11 PM
A resistor box?!

What about the diodes to reverse the current?





Re: Those with Emanage and low imped injectors...
Wednesday, November 09, 2005 10:38 PM
hey dj long time no talk to... you are correct saying that the emanage doesnt add pulsewidth as these guys are explaining well. if you add it using the additional fuel map, it will record the pulse jumping to as much as double, but according to my real world results (using egt and wb) it doesnt net any difference in fuel.

as the guys said i'm not useing this feature. although it would be a little helpful if i were. but even if it was available to us to use, i'm almost sure the pcm are holding the injections at least 80-85% of the way, and i was able to get a little more fuel moving the IAT underneath the motor. i havent come close to maxing these injectors out yet, well i havent really pushed the car hard yet. i've been at 14psi land with just a base fuel pressure of only 35psi to a wideband of 10.5:1. so i clearly have room to push. my guess would be maybe 18-20psi with a safe AFR.

so has anyone looked into the settings of a 91-95 (first gen) dsm ? i can tell you they use low impedance injectors because thats where i took the injectors i am running. and i know they run a wasted spark ignition setup (distributor-less). from my guess work we can try those same rotary settings. if someone can find those i'll give it a shot


________________________________________________

...bone stock
Re: Those with Emanage and low imped injectors...
Wednesday, November 09, 2005 10:40 PM
Yea those 450 blue tops work great.




I was a retard, and now I'm permanently banned.
Re: Those with Emanage and low imped injectors...
Wednesday, November 09, 2005 11:03 PM
Hey...I will look it up and see what settings there using...altho Pute could prolly find it faster than me...



Re: Those with Emanage and low imped injectors...
Wednesday, November 09, 2005 11:12 PM
Jamie S wrote:

All the emanage does is hold a ground on the circuit after the stock ECU shuts off the signal. Thus added injection duration. I think there is some interference, feed back, or noise in the signal. Has any one tried to diode isolate the circuit?


A few thoughts. First, and hopefully slowolej (pcm guru) is out there watching, does anyone know how the stock 96-99 pcm limits current to the injectors? Is it via some ballast resistor or some voltage/current pulse-width modulation technique? Could there be a problem with the emanage not "reading" the high resolution modulated pulse-width of the pcm, and hence no shown injector duty cycle?


Quote:

I think some diodes could help from current flowing the wrong way and giving a false reading.


The schematic i have for the circuit ('97) shows no peripheral connections other than the injectors to power and directly to the pcm.




Re: Those with Emanage and low imped injectors...
Wednesday, November 09, 2005 11:30 PM
excidium: i can confirm the emanage is seeing a voltage for the injectors, but not the correct current or length. to be exact it sees an almost constant 1.8-2.4ms of pulsewidth it idles and never exceeds at 2.4ms.

i cant imagine the injector drivers on the jbo are much different than any other peak-and-hold injector driver. it is in my belief that the emanage cannot interpret what signal it is seeing, but it is indeed seeing it. it can be just the turn of the rotary dials may clear it up because guys have tried using resistors to no avail.


________________________________________________

...bone stock
Re: Those with Emanage and low imped injectors...
Wednesday, November 09, 2005 11:40 PM
Ok, so it does read the idle pulse width ok? So let me get this exactly straight.. it won't increase from the idle pulse width at all or does it freak out with random nonsense once a certain rpm is reached?




Re: Those with Emanage and low imped injectors...
Wednesday, November 09, 2005 11:56 PM
it wont increase, but if u blip the throttle it will drop down towards 1.6-1.8ms for a split second then jump back to 2.4ms... it wont freakout or change from 2.4 other than what i just said.

the dutycycle that is calculated from the 2.4ms x rpm varries from 2%-9% duty cycle from 1000 to 6500rpm respectively.

now for example... if i added 100% duty cycle on the additional injection map. the duty cycle will jump 100% (doubles) to 4.8ms as well the duty cycle. but as i said earlier, it hasnt proven real world change on my wideband and egt




________________________________________________

...bone stock
Re: Those with Emanage and low imped injectors...
Thursday, November 10, 2005 6:59 PM
I meant to post the answer to this question a while ago....
GM is different from other manu. that use low impedance injectors in the way the ecu is designed. The emanage is reading the signal from the ecu wrong. All other cars that use low impedance injectors also use a resistor pack. The signal from the ecu on these cars is the same as it is on a car with high impedance injectors.
The way to fix this problem and get rid of your egr is to convert to a 99 ecu and knock sensor.
Re: Those with Emanage and low imped injectors...
Friday, November 11, 2005 7:16 AM
That 2.4 is probalably the initial high current charge to open the injectors. After that, I'd assume the PCM uses PWM to lower the current down so it doesn't over heat the injectors.


O noes!

Re: Those with Emanage and low imped injectors...
Friday, November 11, 2005 8:40 AM
Me and Jamie are going to try messing around with my EManage sometime soon so maybe we will come up with something, hes quite the electrical genious, and suggest trying some diodes, which very well might work.

Other than that, not really sure what else to do.



Re: Those with Emanage and low imped injectors...
Friday, November 11, 2005 2:01 PM
zeroto60in6flat wrote:

I meant to post the answer to this question a while ago....
GM is different from other manu. that use low impedance injectors in the way the ecu is designed.


Incorrect statement. All cars with low impedance injectors work the same way.

zeroto60in6flat wrote:

The emanage is reading the signal from the ecu wrong.


Correct statement. Which is why I think we need to find a different switch setting that will allow the E-Manage to see peak-to-hold injection correctly. Going off of what I said above, it's POSSIBLE for the E-Manage to read peak-to-hold injection. It's just a matter of find the right switch combo now....

zeroto60in6flat wrote:

All other cars that use low impedance injectors also use a resistor pack.


Vague statement. No car out there in the world is produced and equipped with a high impedance injector driver system that has resistors on it to allow it to support low impedance injectors. Are you talking about interfacing the E-Manage? Well yeah, the E-Manage manual shows you that you need a resistor in between the E-Manage and the injector if they are low impedance.

zeroto60in6flat wrote:

The signal from the ecu on these cars is the same as it is on a car with high impedance injectors.


Again, incorrect statement. Look up peak-to-hold injection anywhere and it will tell you that the current to the injector builds up to a certain level to open it, and then ramps down to a lower value to hold it open. High impedance injectors are figuratively digital in their pulsewidth behavior. High impedance injectors are either supplied with a constant current or no current depending on if the ECU wants it open or closed.

If you or anyone truly wants to prove or disprove this statement, bust out an ocilliscope and take some pictures of the pulsewidth pattern. That would help a lot right now.

zeroto60in6flat wrote:

The way to fix this problem and get rid of your egr is to convert to a 99 ecu and knock sensor.


Great idea !
Why don't we all go and throw small block V8s into our J-bodies to rid ourselves of power hunger and reliability issues??? Sorry to be sarcastic but your comment is completely bypassing the point of this entire thread. We know there's a difference. It's now a matter of making BOTH systems work properly.


To restate what I've been saying, start playing with switches. Somebody needs to figure out a switch code that uses peak-to-hold injection, a single MAP sensor for air pressure, and a 5 volt ignition pull down system.

Two ways I can think of off of the top of my head to try and figure this out. One way would be to do the research on all of the engines in the E-Manage manual and figure out which already published switch combo (if any) relates to an engine with the same characteristics as ours. Another way would be to disect the code of a firmware update. This would involve reverse engineering the Hitachi H8S/2345's machine code into something we can read. Doing so would allow us to make up any combination of settings that we'd like. This isn't exactly easy though. When I had the E-Manage on my car, I spent a good week or two trying to reverse engineer the code and got nowhere.




<a href="http://www.j-body.org/members/mrpute"><img src="http://www.j-bom.com/images/sigs/putesig.jpg">
Re: Those with Emanage and low imped injectors...
Friday, November 11, 2005 2:12 PM
I want a 454 if we are swapping to V8's...

So if the answer is going to lie in the switches, research needs to begin other vehicles with similar settings. I have already started to look into the manual to maybe think I have found something, but I am going to keep researching until I have a better answer....

Peak and hold injection (low impedence), single map sensor, and correct ignition, its gonna take a while to find this.



Re: Those with Emanage and low imped injectors...
Saturday, November 12, 2005 6:44 AM
i'm almost positive no matter the rotary settings for map sensor setting... as long as you have the support software with a laptop it can be changed in the main unit settings, and since its listed already with the rotary settings we use that shouldnt be a problem. just one less thing to research....


________________________________________________

...bone stock
Re: Those with Emanage and low imped injectors...
Saturday, November 12, 2005 7:01 AM
i had a chance to boot the emanage software with my saved 'map' file...

and i found that i am correct, in saying the map sensor can be changed. actually from what i can interpret the first rotary dial is the map sensor specific dial (3-4-2). from the rotary settings we use the third map sensor type on the list; the TY_PR-3. before the pr3 comes the p2 and pr1. which sorta resembles the rotary dial. although after the TY_PR-3 comes a new series of map sensors HN_PR-1....PR-4. which one can conclude it may be a MAF sensor type and the numbers are the varrying voltages between vacuum and absolute pressure or lack there of.

in any case that dial seems to only control the map sensor type, which thereby controls the different between the map/maf sensor and the voltage spread to adjust (input/output).

in addition i found in the 'main unit setting' that either 1 or 2 jumpers control the ignition. see the picture below... and if the following 2 jumpers are controlling the ignition, that leaves nothing for the fuel which can explain why the 'resistor box/diodes' etc is needed in application with low impedance injectors.





________________________________________________

...bone stock
Re: Those with Emanage and low imped injectors...
Saturday, November 12, 2005 10:05 AM
geekd wrote:

that leaves nothing for the fuel which can explain why the 'resistor box/diodes' etc is needed in application with low impedance injectors.


You guys still aren't getting it. Simple electronics explain why the resistors are needed. Since the fuel injector drivers are high current drivers (low impedance) and the E-Manage is set up to receive the signals of low current injectors (high impedance), you need to have resistors in the way of the connections to the injectors so that high amounts of current don't go through the E-Manage. That's a separate problem. This has nothing to do with why the pulsewidth and duty cycle cannot be sensed correctly. Honestly, I'm assuming the reasoning behind the resistors is so that you don't fry the E-Manage (which nobody here with an E-Manage and a low impedance injection system have had happen to them at this point). In my opinion, I'm going to assume that the resistors are a precaution that is suggested by Greddy.....to prevent damage from happening to the E-Manage.

The dials adjust what type of fuel injection system (high or low impedance) and what type of air sensing the E-Manage should use.




<a href="http://www.j-body.org/members/mrpute"><img src="http://www.j-bom.com/images/sigs/putesig.jpg">
Re: Those with Emanage and low imped injectors...
Saturday, November 12, 2005 10:11 AM
I ran 10ohm 10wat resistors inline with my ecu and emanage and seen no changes.

If other cars are using low impedence injectors then we need to find out what switch settings they are using and try to start working from there.



Re: Those with Emanage and low imped injectors...
Monday, November 14, 2005 4:03 AM
MR. Pute....you completely dont understand what i said.

Look at any car that uses low impedance injectors that the emanage is designed for and you will find a resistor box.

No setting or resistor will allow the emanage to read the signal from the ecu correctly without you redesigning the ecu .

Swapping to the 99 ecu is cheap, easy, and allows you to get rid of the egr as well. Swapping to a sbc is not cheap and easy.

I used the emanage to get perfect afrs with no check engine lights and is daily driven

Dyno sheets here
Re: Those with Emanage and low imped injectors...
Monday, November 14, 2005 9:30 AM
zeroto60in6flat wrote:

Look at any car that uses low impedance injectors that the emanage is designed for and you will find a resistor box.[/quote

Prove it. Show a picture of an engine bay that has low impedance injectors from the factory with a high impedance injector driver that has a so called "resistor box" in between the two.

zeroto60in6flat wrote:

No setting or resistor will allow the emanage to read the signal from the ecu correctly without you redesigning the ecu.[/quote}

. The worse case scenario would be to redesign the code of the E-Manage which is way easier than screwing with the ECU.

zeroto60in6flat wrote:

Swapping to the 99 ecu is cheap, easy, and allows you to get rid of the egr as well. Swapping to a sbc is not cheap and easy.


Who cares?!?! That's not the point of this thread. If you continue to bring this up, I'll notify a mod of your post jacking.

zeroto60in6flat wrote:

I used the emanage to get perfect afrs with no check engine lights and is daily driven


Is this with a low impedance pre 99 ECU or a high impedance 99-up ECU? If it's the latter, congrats on doing something a lot of other people have acomplished and really isn't the point of this thread. If it's the low impedance system, care to actually add something of value to this thread?

I'm not here to put you down. I'm just a little annoyed that you're trying to steer this entire thread away from what it's main point was with absolutely no solid proof of any of your statements. Without proof, it's just a bunch of people bickering back and forth.


<a href="http://www.j-body.org/members/mrpute"><img src="http://www.j-bom.com/images/sigs/putesig.jpg">
Re: Those with Emanage and low imped injectors...
Monday, November 14, 2005 9:39 AM
I'm not hijacking the thread, i'm solving the problem of the thread. The emanage will simply not work with the 95-98 ecu. Talk to an authorized greddy retailer and they will call and get the same answer from greddy's tech department.

Again, our ecu is different from other ecu's that use low impedance injectors. The emanage will not work with the signal from the 95-98 ecu. Swapping to the 99 ecu is a great alernative to using a different piggy back or megasquirt.

Re: Those with Emanage and low imped injectors...
Monday, November 14, 2005 10:19 AM
zeroto60in6flat wrote:

Talk to an authorized greddy retailer and they will call and get the same answer from greddy's tech department.


Are you serious?!? Take a good look at the entire list of supported cars for the Greddy E-Manage. Do you see a single American made car on that list? Nope! Why? Because the Greddy E-Manage was made for the Japanese market.

I also can't believe you're taking the advice of the Greddy tech department. They won't tell you jack because you're not an authorized installer! Not to mention, they have absolutely NO DATA regarding any GM made car because they just flat out want to ignore people who want the system installed on their GM/Ford/Chrysler made car.

It's a Japanese product that's only supported on Japanese made cars. Fortunately, there's a thing called standards in which everyone follows. This means there are standards for the ecus, fuel systems, everything on a car. A high impedance fuel injector driver on one car is the exact same high impedance fuel injector driver on another car. The same goes for peak-and-hold low impedance fuel injector drivers on all the cars out there. They're all the same. Same same same. If you don't think so, friggin prove me wrong.

You haven't solved the problem in the thread. The problem is to get the E-Manage working with the pre 99 ecus. You mearly ignoring the problem and trying something else which does work. We ALL know that.

Please don't bring it up again. Your comments on completely ignoring the problem are not helping at all.



<a href="http://www.j-body.org/members/mrpute"><img src="http://www.j-bom.com/images/sigs/putesig.jpg">
Re: Those with Emanage and low imped injectors...
Monday, November 14, 2005 10:36 AM
Mr. Pute wrote:

zeroto60in6flat wrote:

Talk to an authorized greddy retailer and they will call and get the same answer from greddy's tech department.


Are you serious?!? Take a good look at the entire list of supported cars for the Greddy E-Manage. Do you see a single American made car on that list? Nope! Why? Because the Greddy E-Manage was made for the Japanese market.

I also can't believe you're taking the advice of the Greddy tech department. They won't tell you jack because you're not an authorized installer! Not to mention, they have absolutely NO DATA regarding any GM made car because they just flat out want to ignore people who want the system installed on their GM/Ford/Chrysler made car.

It's a Japanese product that's only supported on Japanese made cars. Fortunately, there's a thing called standards in which everyone follows. This means there are standards for the ecus, fuel systems, everything on a car. A high impedance fuel injector driver on one car is the exact same high impedance fuel injector driver on another car. The same goes for peak-and-hold low impedance fuel injector drivers on all the cars out there. They're all the same. Same same same. If you don't think so, friggin prove me wrong.

You haven't solved the problem in the thread. The problem is to get the E-Manage working with the pre 99 ecus. You mearly ignoring the problem and trying something else which does work. We ALL know that.

Please don't bring it up again. Your comments on completely ignoring the problem are not helping at all.


You cant call greddy unless your an authorized installer. I just happen to be friends with one. They're the ones that pointed out that in the japanese cars that use low impedance injectors that the emanage works on, there is a resistor pack. The signal from the ecu in these cars is the same as if the injector were high impedance. Ill bet you $100 to prove me wrong. Look at the schematics for any of the cars that the emanage works on with low impedance and youll find a resisor pack.
Re: Those with Emanage and low imped injectors...
Monday, November 14, 2005 11:10 AM
Wow. This is getting retarded.

Fact of the matter is this....we WILL find a way for it to work, we have alot of smart guys pulling together to figure this out so if we can just get to the task at hand instead of just saying to swap to the 99 ecu....





Re: Those with Emanage and low imped injectors...
Monday, November 14, 2005 11:25 AM
Jay wrote:

Wow. This is getting retarded.

Fact of the matter is this....we WILL find a way for it to work, we have alot of smart guys pulling together to figure this out so if we can just get to the task at hand instead of just saying to swap to the 99 ecu....


No, you wont. Stop wasting your time, listen to someones advice. Everyone is so hardheaded on this forum, nothings changed in the 5 years ive been here.
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