Those with Emanage and low imped injectors... - Page 3 - Tuning Forum

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Re: Those with Emanage and low imped injectors...
Monday, November 14, 2005 11:30 AM
If you have been here 5 years than why does it say you joined in 2002?

Regardless, let us find out on our own then if you know for sure it wont work. But I am positive that with all the smart guys working on this we will find something, especially in a form of maybe being able to trick the ecu with some diodes suggested by Jamie Smith....






Re: Those with Emanage and low imped injectors...
Monday, November 14, 2005 12:52 PM
what the hell is this resistor 'pack' we are speaking of ? find me some documents or links where i can find this information myself. if all those japanese motors running low impedance injectors are using this 'pack' information should be readily available right?


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...bone stock
Re: Those with Emanage and low imped injectors...
Monday, November 14, 2005 12:54 PM
if i remember correctly the emanage manuals speak nothing of resistors or resistor packs unless you plan on adding an additional sub-injector that is low impedance. as for main injectors, all it claims is high-impedance only; no resistor talk for main injectors.


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...bone stock
Re: Those with Emanage and low imped injectors...
Monday, November 14, 2005 12:58 PM
after doing that brief software glance last time i posted, although i respect everything mr. pute says, i believe the dials only control map sensor selection, ignition input, and ignition output. again this is what i BELIEVE, i have no hard facts. but i'm willing to bet if someone dares me to play with the rotary settings and collect data the emanage support software reports to see what dial is doing what, etc.


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...bone stock
Re: Those with Emanage and low imped injectors...
Monday, November 14, 2005 3:01 PM
Oh I DARE you

Seriously though. The problem with going the brute force route is that there are 4096 different possible combinations since each dial represents a hexadecimal placevalue. 3 dials equals 12 bits of information. 2^12 = 4096 different combinations.

The problem with going the route of reverse engineering the firmware is that we don't have header files to determine what is what in the code. Equally as hard as going the brute force route.

So again... I DARE you


<a href="http://www.j-body.org/members/mrpute"><img src="http://www.j-bom.com/images/sigs/putesig.jpg">
Re: Those with Emanage and low imped injectors...
Monday, November 14, 2005 5:53 PM
well someone had to find the 3-4-2 by some method....

i'm not saying i will actually turn the motor over, but i would like to see what/if anything changes inside the software. well as you put it the dials are binary data, but i seriously doubt they represent a series of 12bits. i'm almost certain each dial has its own individual function (hence i think... map sensor - ignition input - ignition output).

but i would love to be proved wrong mr pute. you are clearly onto something and could only hope the injector function is controlled by one of those dials, or as you put it some combination of the dials. now get rid of that megasquirt or whatever your working with and get back to the emanage


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...bone stock
Re: Those with Emanage and low imped injectors...
Tuesday, November 15, 2005 7:07 AM
I dont think if you have the wrong switch settings and you try to start it up, nothing much is going to happen, I had my emanage box, on the side where you select number of cylinders, I tried setting it to 5,6,7,8, just to see if anything would be different.



Re: Those with Emanage and low imped injectors...
Tuesday, November 15, 2005 3:58 PM
^^ jay you ready to trade that thing yet for the new safc2 and cartec fmu ???? You know you want to.


01 Z24 Turbo
Re: Those with Emanage and low imped injectors...
Wednesday, November 16, 2005 2:27 AM
While I dont have an Emanage, and I have never played with one........ but I have to 'sorta' agree with
zeroto60in6flat wrote:

They're the ones that pointed out that in the japanese cars that use low impedance injectors that the emanage works on, there is a resistor pack. The signal from the ecu in these cars is the same as if the injector were high impedance. Ill bet you $100 to prove me wrong. Look at the schematics for any of the cars that the emanage works on with low impedance and youll find a resisor pack.


If you look at Mitsu, they use low imp. injectors (2ohm), but have a high impedance (12ohm) system. They use a resistor pack for their injectors. I believe toyota is the same way. I can say Honda isnt, but thats because they use high imp.(12ohm) injectors. From what I have read *most* Import vehicles use a high imp. system, and those that dont (ie: Mitsu and possibly Toyota) they have resistor packs located on the firewall.

If I am also correct, the Emanage doesnt hook to the injector, but to the ECM...... and then it would be before the resistors going to the injectors...... in this case, I am kinda leaning towards swapping to the 99 ECM, it then gives the Emanage what it wants to see..... a high impedance(12ohm) system.

so, to clear the slate.....

95-98 use 2 ohm injectors
99+ use 12 ohm injectors

The only choice I see is to run a 99 ECM, since even the imports using 2 ohm injectors have a high impedance driver behind them........ they just run it threw a resistor pack......

please dont hate me.



SPD RCR Z - '02 Z24 420whp
SLO GOAT - '04 GTO 305whp
RACER X - '78 Opel Kadett W41 Swap

Re: Those with Emanage and low imped injectors...
Wednesday, November 16, 2005 8:50 AM
Ah ha, since the imports are using a high impedence driver, their signals will be full in strength. Makes a lot more sense, and I feel it kinda supports my theory . GM must use PWM (pulse width modulation) to lower the voltage after the intial opening, which is lower than the emanage can see.

Since it's a software way of solving the problem, it can change easily with a software change.


O noes!
Re: Those with Emanage and low imped injectors...
Wednesday, November 16, 2005 12:34 PM
Quote:

From what I have read *most* Import vehicles use a high imp. system, and those that dont (ie: Mitsu and possibly Toyota) they have resistor packs located on the firewall.


that kind of reads wrong......... should say something like "*most* Import vehicles use a high imp. system, just some use high imp. injectors, and those that dont have high imp. injectors, use a resistor pack so the ECM sees 12ohms......."

Something like that.......... it was late/early when I wrote it.

Those of you that dont believe that the imports use resistor packs, check the Honda forums........ they often wire in Mitsu resistor packs so they can use low impedance injectors......

I believe adding resistors to make the Emanage see 12ohms isnt the goal here. Just because the load is now 12ohms, doesnt change the type of driver behind it........... Peak/Hold vs Saturated........ it just makes it a Peak/Hold with a 12ohm load

some info on peak/hold vs. saturated

So as far as I can tell, there is no way your going to make the Emanage work with the low impedance system........ unless you can change the drive in the Emanage......

Anyone up for a 99 ECM swap?



SPD RCR Z - '02 Z24 420whp
SLO GOAT - '04 GTO 305whp
RACER X - '78 Opel Kadett W41 Swap


Re: Those with Emanage and low imped injectors...
Wednesday, November 16, 2005 3:18 PM
Quote:

GM must use PWM (pulse width modulation) to lower the voltage after the intial opening, which is lower than the emanage can see.


This is what I was getting at before. This could help explain why the e-manage is only reading a steady/low pulse width. Perhaps only the peak is being read while the post peak, pulse width modulated signal isn't. While it may not be as simple as that, it explains why people are reading pulse widths only a few milliseconds long, as a typical injector opening events take approx. one millisecond, and the peak should roughly correspond to this event.

Either way, I think you've all verified that some additional electronics are required here for these systems.. OR an ECM swap.. The former will be extremely expensive and time consuming and I doubt any of us could even do it, while the latter seems the best option as pointed out by srz.

Is Greddy really so reluctant to elaborate on this aspect? Has anyone called and really caused a stir over there, or do they officially not support our cars and are therefore exempt from any criticism??




Re: Those with Emanage and low imped injectors...
Wednesday, November 16, 2005 4:22 PM
ECM swap is cake for 97 and 98 vehicles, just need to get that ECM reflashed and swap injectors.


O noes!
Re: Those with Emanage and low imped injectors...
Thursday, November 17, 2005 7:31 AM
Smokey wrote:

ECM swap is cake for 97 and 98 vehicles, just need to get that ECM reflashed and swap injectors.


its not that hard for 96's, just takes some time.........




SPD RCR Z - '02 Z24 420whp
SLO GOAT - '04 GTO 305whp
RACER X - '78 Opel Kadett W41 Swap

Re: Those with Emanage and low imped injectors...
Thursday, November 17, 2005 7:33 AM
Smokey wrote:

I think I know why the Emanage doesn't read the right duty cycle for your cars. It's due to the fact that they're "peak and hold" injectors. This means the injectors recieve a full jolt of current, which then drops to a lower current to hold the injector open once it's open. The Emanage must not be reading the current after it drops down to the "hold" status.

That's my 5 cents.


oh, and to keep it on topic, from the original post, the Emanage doesnt have a problem with the injectors being Peak/Hold, it has a problem with the Injector Driver being a Peak/Hold driver...... or so it seems. (as I said, never played with one myself)





SPD RCR Z - '02 Z24 420whp
SLO GOAT - '04 GTO 305whp
RACER X - '78 Opel Kadett W41 Swap

Re: Those with Emanage and low imped injectors...
Thursday, November 17, 2005 9:38 AM
SpeedRacerZ
oh, and to keep it on topic, from the original post, the Emanage doesn't have a problem with the injectors being Peak/Hold, it has a problem with the Injector Driver being a Peak/Hold driver...... or so it seems. (as I said, never played with one myself)


That is exactly what is wrong. The drivers are the problem. The Emanage can not see the second part of the signal, because the threshold is to high in the Emanage hardware. It can not see the low part of the wave form, but can see the high (peak) part of it. This is why all you see is 2.4 milli seconds for duration, that is how long the peak portion of the current signal is being delivered by the ECU.

Maybe some one can contact Greddy and tell them to lower the damn threshold for peak and hold injectors, since they are more desired for high performance
Re: Those with Emanage and low imped injectors...
Thursday, November 17, 2005 10:39 AM
word



SPD RCR Z - '02 Z24 420whp
SLO GOAT - '04 GTO 305whp
RACER X - '78 Opel Kadett W41 Swap

Re: Those with Emanage and low imped injectors...
Thursday, November 17, 2005 4:17 PM
Quote:

ECM swap is cake for 97 and 98 vehicles, just need to get that ECM reflashed and swap injectors.


Are you saying that I can just reflash my PCM at the dealership to a 99 ECU and the Emanage will work fine?




Re: Those with Emanage and low imped injectors...
Thursday, November 17, 2005 6:09 PM
thats the idea........ at least no one has had any issues with a 97-98 ECM thats been reflashed......




SPD RCR Z - '02 Z24 420whp
SLO GOAT - '04 GTO 305whp
RACER X - '78 Opel Kadett W41 Swap

Re: Those with Emanage and low imped injectors...
Tuesday, December 06, 2005 2:54 PM
wow...now everyone is resaying what i said without getting flamed.
Re: Those with Emanage and low imped injectors...
Tuesday, December 06, 2005 3:54 PM
I am switching to megasquirt so eff this Emanage....




Re: Those with Emanage and low imped injectors...
Tuesday, December 06, 2005 5:40 PM
zeroto60in6flat wrote:

wow...now everyone is resaying what i said without getting flamed.


yep, thats the way the JBO turnes.......






SPD RCR Z - '02 Z24 420whp
SLO GOAT - '04 GTO 305whp
RACER X - '78 Opel Kadett W41 Swap

Re: Those with Emanage and low imped injectors...
Saturday, December 10, 2005 6:45 AM
Once I get the 99 PCM will I need to change from the low impedance injectors to high impedance?





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