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for certain modes to be engaged (such as idle and decel for example) there needs to be a 0 percent TPS input...
I misunderstood that earlier - yes that could be a problem.
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Like I said, I want you to prove me wrong
I'm not going to try this for that reason.
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have you messed with HPT much for these cars?
No. Honestly, not on these cars. I spent like 30 min in Nicks car then realized I had no idea how to make it work since fueling was TPS based. Recently, I thought about this and just wanted to get some opinions.
94 Civic - 10.82@134
99 Corvette - 11.71@125
Mark Hassett wrote:
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Like I said, I want you to prove me wrong
I'm not going to try this for that reason.
I think he meant he is going to try this for that reason lol.
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Like I said, I want you to prove me wrong
I'm not going to try this for that reason.
WOW, I have no idea how I posted that lol. And I cant find the edit post button.
Very sorry, my reply was supposed to be something like - cool, thanks.
94 Civic - 10.82@134
99 Corvette - 11.71@125
Ouch - I didn't think of the auto trans people; huge problem there. There may be many reasons this won't work, but if there is even a small chance that it will, it opens up some big possibilities. Its just a shame the load resolution isn't greater in our High RPM VE table.
But in order to wrap your mind around an idea like this, you really need to let go of the "name" of the sensor and just see a 0-5V output, as that is what the ECU sees. Then its down to algebra : y=mx+b, x is the voltage, b is the output at zero voltage, y is the "output" seen in the axis of the VE table
For what it's worth.... I think it's time to just Megasquirt this car, and go that route. There's way too many hurdles to messing with the stock PCM, might as well use something that's going to be able to run the thing on it's own. And something that can accept a MAP sensor that's going to register some boost.
i find it amusing that SHOoff has nothing better to do but follow me around & be an unhelpful dick in even cross-forum. - Jon Mick
Oh I disagree. Stock PCM with PortFueler would be easier and way more effective!
Bill Hahn Jr.
Hahn RaceCraft
World's Quickest and Fastest Street J-Bodies
Turbocharging GM FWD's since 1988
www.turbosystem.com
oldskool wrote:Ouch - I didn't think of the auto trans people; huge problem there. There may be many reasons this won't work, but if there is even a small chance that it will, it opens up some big possibilities. Its just a shame the load resolution isn't greater in our High RPM VE table.
But in order to wrap your mind around an idea like this, you really need to let go of the "name" of the sensor and just see a 0-5V output, as that is what the ECU sees. Then its down to algebra : y=mx+b, x is the voltage, b is the output at zero voltage, y is the "output" seen in the axis of the VE table
Thats why I mentioned it earlier. Nobody seemed to think this all the way through. As for the concept of the voltages, I understand what you guys are thinking, but its not that simple. Its comparing apples to oranges. Yes, they both are fruit and they both make juice, but they different in both taste, shape, color, and feel. Quite simply, they are different and both used to make different things. The PCM uses all of these sensors for multiple tables (some we can see/alot we can't) . Without all of them, the coding is not correct and things don't "talk" right.
If you are not going for crazy boost, I would just tune it on the Alpha N. It can be done, I have done dozens of them and all my customers are happy. If you are going to be building the engine and going with a larger turbo/higher boost, I would say go standalone(need to take into account will not be emissions legal) or use Bill's Port Fueler.
P&P Tuning
420.5whp / 359.8wtq
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Nobody seemed to think this all the way through. As for the concept of the voltages, I understand what you guys are thinking, but its not that simple.
A few minutes ago, we took a 100%stock automatic 05 Cavalier, unplugged the TPS and wired in a Honda 1.7 bar MAP sensor. Didnt touch the ECU at all. Got in and drove for 15-20 miles while monitoring with VCM scanner. Closed loop worked, trans shifted fine, idle was fine, not even a CEL, etc. I will post the datalog and video soon. Nick just brought over his 2 bar. We are going to try that and throw his ECU in (so we can use HPtuners) and rescale the TPS tables.
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I would just tune it on the Alpha N. It can be done, I have done dozens of them and all my customers are happy.
I will have to read up on how people make this work, I don't understand how you account for the extra airflow in boost when the ECU cant see it? Do you just go overly rich in the upper TPS rows (basically?) Seems like the car would have to go overly rich when you initially "give it the gas" then lean back to an acceptable AFR as boost comes in? Not trying to argue or anything like that. I'm just curious...
94 Civic - 10.82@134
99 Corvette - 11.71@125
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If you are going to be building the engine and going with a larger turbo/higher boost, I would say go standalone(need to take into account will not be emissions legal) or use Bill's Port Fueler.
This is just something I'm curious about trying - I do agree with you 100% and did tell Nick that he should budget a standalone or the PortFueler into his plan.
94 Civic - 10.82@134
99 Corvette - 11.71@125
im still driving this beotch around right now lol, it runs just like it did before. and its an 02 lol
I'd be very curious to see those scans...
Glad its working out so far for you guys, this is one instance that I would be happy to be wrong.
DeeJayPanzone wrote:im still driving this beotch around right now lol, it runs just like it did before. and its an 02 lol
Well get back to my house so we can try the 2 bar lol. Put some gas in that thing while your at it haha.
DaFlyinSkwir(LS61) /PJ/ OEM+ wrote:I'd be very curious to see those scans...
Glad its working out so far for you guys, this is one instance that I would be happy to be wrong.
Thanks man.
I will post some stuff as soon as he gets back to my house and we try the 2 bar.
94 Civic - 10.82@134
99 Corvette - 11.71@125
DeeJayPanzone wrote:im still driving this beotch around right now lol, it runs just like it did before. and its an 02 lol
Still not made the car read boost. The ECU is not going to read boost.
FU Tuning
John Higgins wrote:The ECU is not going to read boost.
The ECU doesn't know it is - but in fact it is. The VE table IS sensitive to positive MAP pressure now. With the Honda MAP sensor, anything over 60% is sensitive to positive manifold pressure. Unfortunately this is only one row for boost. Using the 2 bar GM sensor, the transition to positive manifold pressure occurs at 44% TPS. We now have 2 rows for boost (the 50% and 100% rows). The "old" data from 0-100 would need to be compressed now from 0-forty something. The VE values in the now open rows could now reflect the extra airflow provided by boost.
If you don't believe me, I suppose we could hook the MAP sensor up to an air compressor (since we don't have a boosted ecotec available) with the car off of course, show it 5 psi and 10 psi, then show you the TPS values changing in VCM monitor.
This still isn't the answer to everything, but its cool.
94 Civic - 10.82@134
99 Corvette - 11.71@125
Now all we need is for HP tuners to give us the ability to edit the axes on the tables, like ever single other OS has, and we're set to do some real testing! Hmmm 10 rows of load in the high RPM VE table - that would give us 4 rows of vacuum and 6 rows of boost on a 3 Bar if only we could rescale the axis. It would be a hack, but it would still be sweet. Obviously I'm day dreaming at this point...
oldskool wrote:Now all we need is for HP tuners to give us the ability to edit the axes on the tables, like ever single other OS has, and we're set to do some real testing! Hmmm 10 rows of load in the high RPM VE table - that would give us 4 rows of vacuum and 6 rows of boost on a 3 Bar if only we could rescale the axis. It would be a hack, but it would still be sweet. Obviously I'm day dreaming at this point...
Exactly - thats really all this hack would need to possibly be a solution. You would think... Well even if they found the memory addresses that contained the 10 scalars of the VE table and changed them to more linear values for us. That would be a tremendous help. Kinda seems like that could be an easy thing for them to do. Not like they would have to write code?
94 Civic - 10.82@134
99 Corvette - 11.71@125
Mark Hassett wrote:oldskool wrote:Now all we need is for HP tuners to give us the ability to edit the axes on the tables, like ever single other OS has, and we're set to do some real testing! Hmmm 10 rows of load in the high RPM VE table - that would give us 4 rows of vacuum and 6 rows of boost on a 3 Bar if only we could rescale the axis. It would be a hack, but it would still be sweet. Obviously I'm day dreaming at this point...
Exactly - thats really all this hack would need to possibly be a solution. You would think... Well even if they found the memory addresses that contained the 10 scalars of the VE table and changed them to more linear values for us. That would be a tremendous help. Kinda seems like that could be an easy thing for them to do. Not like they would have to write code?
haha when it comes to HP tuners, ponying up new services when they already have your money is less likely than seeing a unicorn while winning the lottery and getting struck by lightning at the same time... no really...ask around
It's an easy to understand business model...they go after the applications with the most sales potential, and this ain't it!
I don't mean to sound patronizing, but we're lucky to have what we do. I applaud them for even bothering with this application.
Bill Hahn Jr.
Hahn RaceCraft
World's Quickest and Fastest Street J-Bodies
Turbocharging GM FWD's since 1988
www.turbosystem.com
DaFlyinSkwir(LS61) /PJ/ OEM+ wrote:ImPhat0260/Cavattack2000 wrote:Bill Hahn Jr. wrote:It's an easy to understand business model...they go after the applications with the most sales potential, and this ain't it!
I don't mean to sound patronizing, but we're lucky to have what we do. I applaud them for even bothering with this application.
I agree 110%.....
I'm with these guys also
Count me in also lol. I would think most of the r&d focus is LSx platform based - allowing them to reach LSx Camaros, Corvettes from 97-present, LSx trucks were what... 4.8,5.3,6.0, CTS-V, GTO, etc. on top of all the other stuff they support. That covers a huge market. This is unfortunate for you guys, especially since the LSx OS's are so feature rich.
94 Civic - 10.82@134
99 Corvette - 11.71@125
Earlier today, I measured the TPS voltage of the real TPS with the engine off and the key in the run position. 0% TPS was .46 volt, 100% TPS was 4.3 volts. I used these points to try to figure out what the Voltage of each TPS scalar in the VE table actually are. Since thats what the ECU is really looking at... voltages. Anyway, I think I got them right. I wanted to try to get an idea of what pressures the TPS scalars are now referring to with this hack. I took my voltage scalars and plotted voltage curves vs pressure for some MAP sensors to see if any would be a good fit to the scalars we are stuck with.
Here is the table... I don't think I did the Honda sensors correctly? Fairly confident on the AEM's though.
94 Civic - 10.82@134
99 Corvette - 11.71@125
Bill Hahn Jr. wrote:It's an easy to understand business model...they go after the applications with the most sales potential, and this ain't it!
I don't mean to sound patronizing, but we're lucky to have what we do. I applaud them for even bothering with this application.
You guys "bothered" with the platform and as a result of quality products and
service after the sale have a loyal customer base (including me by the way). I don't want to get too far off topic here, but I seem to recall Imphat as one of the big advocates of the more tables on older I4 platforms thread on hptuners forum. Understand that I'm greatful that we have some ability to tune, but we pay the same as the LSx guys and get a fraction of the service. Enough with that...
AEM 3.5 bar looks like a win
For the manual trans guys anyways. More info on the honda with voltage divider?
Why thanks! I guess I just can't resist domestic sport-compacts. Especially Ecotecs! Loved the engine since I first set eyes on it (in 2001 at the Chrysler Tech Center, of all places!).
One aspect to keep in mind...if one is already fighting a lack of available resolution (such as appears to be the case here), one should not run any higher pressure MAP sensor than absolutely required. One loses tunability where it may be sorely needed under such circumstances...the "steps" are too coarse.
Bill Hahn Jr.
Hahn RaceCraft
World's Quickest and Fastest Street J-Bodies
Turbocharging GM FWD's since 1988
www.turbosystem.com
