Just as the title states. If you're a boosted eco, or will be boosted in the future and you are looking at tuning options, what would you pay to have an editable eco 2.5 bar reflash?
THIS IS NOT A THREAD THAT I WILL SUBMIT TO HPT. That is a hopeless endeavor that i will not pursue. This is an informal poll to judge if there was a company out there who was willing to work with us, would you be in?
I'll go first - i would pay. Probably up to about 500 bucks + the credits necessary to license if applicable, simply because having a "factory" tune is the easiest way to remain emissions compliant while still having the ability to make more power than the hardware can handle. Tuning a turbocharged car with a 2.5bar OS would be much easier (and likely cheaper) than 1-bar+fmu, or piggyback, or stand alone. We all know tuning a s/c car can be done quite effectively on a 1bar tune, but max gains and efficiency could be realized on a 2.5bar OS.
Just for reference, 2.5bar is about 21 psig boost. Based on the resolution in the LD9 reflash, there is enough play to "fake" a 3bar system. I use the word fake loosely because you wouldn't be loosing much resolution at all. It comes down to keeping the axes straight in your head and prudent data logging.
If you're a boosted or future boosted eco, and don't feel the benefit outweighs any potential cost, please feel free to explain.
P.S. It's understood that if there are 100 responses that say they would pay, that likely 10 or so will actually pony up, however I'll still ask that you consider your actual situation (financial and necessity for the tune).
Thanks for your time everyone!
Question. Is this for a editable OS that you could tune in HPT?
I would pay, but not $500 for it.
FU Tuning
I think it would be worth 500 bucks.
Hahn Stage II - Mitsu TD06-20g |3" Turbo-back Exhaust | 61mm Bored TB |
HP Tuners | Innovate WB02 | Spec Stage 3 | Team Green LSD | TurboTech Upper | Full Addco Sways | Sportlines & Yellows |
BlackEco wrote:I think it would be worth 500 bucks.
I don't... While it would definitly make my life easier, its not worth that much to me... Lets face it guys, Jbody owners are cheap. I know some people cringe when I quote for a tune, and adding this on top of it would make it justifiable to buy a standalone...
Weatheralls Auto wrote:There is currently a few v6 guys working on the 4 cyl pcms to work upto the Gm Eco SC flash.
Not exactly clear on what you are trying to say here... If you are saying they will be able to crack it, I would love to know there approach seeing how its basically tuner locked straight from GM....
P&P Tuning
420.5whp / 359.8wtq
~500 dollars was just my limit. Feel free to post what its worth to you. I realize Jbody owners are cheap, but a lot of those that have thoughtfully designed turbo systems probably go too cheap on tuning if they had a real option.
QWK LN2 (needs an @ss whoopin) wrote:
Weatheralls Auto wrote:There is currently a few v6 guys working on the 4 cyl pcms to work upto the Gm Eco SC flash.
Not exactly clear on what you are trying to say here... If you are saying they will be able to crack it, I would love to know there approach seeing how its basically tuner locked straight from GM....
Unfortunately, from what I have read so far, it is not that they are tuner locked (that would be easy) it is that the Maps and Tables are "scattered and unorganized" for lack of better term, and will take many man hours to check and confirm over many different Cals.
In my Opinion, there must be a "hidden road map" in there somewhere so the OS knows what to do.
Will it be a success? only tonnes of man hours will tell lol.
http://www.weatherallsautomotive.com http://www.planethax.com/j-body
if I didnt have the PF ryan id be in
LE61T PTE6262 Powered 
Can't trifecta unlock it, and allow HPTuners to tune it....or are they just working/looking at it?
I know they just did this for the GM stage two kits for the LNF motors.
PRND321 Till I DIE
Old Motor: 160whp & 152ft/lbs, 1/4 Mile 15.4 @88.2
M45 + LD9 + 4T40-E, GO GO GO
The GMPP tune for the LNF was never "locked". It was editiable right off the bat because very few of the tables that GM changes aren't even available via HPT. If HPT had to do extra work to make the GMPP tunes available, we would NOT have them. There are at least two other tuners that have cracked fuel pressure tables, while HPT lets us hang for literally years before updates.
Trifecta is one of those two companies. They are the company that would be able to do the eco reflash if anyone can.
Weatherall's - you should contact Vince@ trifectatuning. I know he's looked at it and made progress, but i have not yet gotten a response as to if it's a marketable product. You guys work together to crack and market it, become an authorized Trifecta vendor and everyone's happy!
. After seeing what the turbo LD9 guys have done with the LD9 s/c reflash, you can imagine that it will take off eventually, for the reason i noted in the first post.
BTW, if there's ANYTHING i can do to facilitate this, don't hesitate to ask.
Taken from Chris @ HPT....
Quote:
The calibration ID's have been deleted and even worse the ROM checksums are incorrect and disabled. This means that if you have a flash ROM failure you will never know (ie. P0601 has been disabled and bypassed).
Quote:
In fact it's not all you need, the code modifications are an essential part of the file that is flashed into the PCM to account for the 2.5bar MAP sensor with integrated IAT sensor.
Without the calibration ID i cannot extract the parameters, it's that simple.
Also, with incorrect and disabled file checksums, i cannot guarantee what you read from the PCM is error free and actually matches what is stored in the PCMs flash ROM.
I understand your frustration but there really is nothing else that can be done. It's very frustrating for me as well.
Quote:
*have* looked at all the files presented to me i have two that were actually read from a vehicle. I *have* looked at every possible way to make this work within our software and it can't.
We have seen this issue *MANY* times before in the V6 and V8 PCM's where tuners purposely set the calibration ID to zero, disable checksums, fail to correct checksums (cos they are too lazy). There is just no way to do it. It is like me trying to work out where you live by guessing your phone number and checking thru the phone book to see if that number is you give that all i know about you is you live on earth somewhere.
eg. if you have a mail order PCM from a competitor of ours, they purposely delete the calibration ID so that you can only edit the PCM using their software and not ours.
I have never, ever, ever, ever seen a GM certified calibration come with checksums disabled and bypassing probably THE single most important hardware diagnostic check the PCM can make on itself. Ask your dealer if your PCM has a calibration hardware fault or the reflash didn't quite work correctly how would they know?
To top it off, one of the best tuners I know (Todd//AKA Protomec) even tried to crack it with different software.... He was unsuccessful and went above and beyond trying to crack it... Not saying you guys won't be able to, but the odds or nowhere near favorable that you will... Good luck either way...
P&P Tuning
420.5whp / 359.8wtq
QWK LN2, I'm not doubting or dismissing any of what you said, however, taking from my LNF experience with HPT, they say a LOT of things are difficult or can't be done, then someone else turns around and does it the next day. Fuel pressure tables, fan control and boost solenoid control are just a few. In my honest opinion, they are too busy working on custom OS tweaks for V8 guys and unlocking current market operating sytems for new money. I know your opinion is that we should be grateful for any support at all, but we pay the same as the LSx guys that get CUSTOM speed density operating systems. In the LNF world, we've literally got two additional versions in like three years and counting.
I have faith in guys like Vince because they produce - they are on the forefront of the market, listening to what the CUSTOMER wants. When a company does that, everyone benefits
They don't take your money and quit.
Cliffnotes - i would take what HPT says with respect to the "difficulty" of our systems with a grain of salt.
oldskool wrote:QWK LN2, I'm not doubting or dismissing any of what you said, however, taking from my LNF experience with HPT, they say a LOT of things are difficult or can't be done, then someone else turns around and does it the next day. Fuel pressure tables, fan control and boost solenoid control are just a few. In my honest opinion, they are too busy working on custom OS tweaks for V8 guys and unlocking current market operating sytems for new money. I know your opinion is that we should be grateful for any support at all, but we pay the same as the LSx guys that get CUSTOM speed density operating systems. In the LNF world, we've literally got two additional versions in like three years and counting.
I have faith in guys like Vince because they produce - they are on the forefront of the market, listening to what the CUSTOMER wants. When a company does that, everyone benefits They don't take your money and quit.
Cliffnotes - i would take what HPT says with respect to the "difficulty" of our systems with a grain of salt.
I agree with you 110%! What I am saying is, that even Todd/Protomec tried this with a few different types of softwares tht he used at Roush... He was able to get the CAL ID and everything, but after he spoke with GM engineers about this in extensive depths, he came up the same thing, NOTHING!
As for the LNF issues, I know all about it! I deal with it on a daily basis. As a matter of fact, i need to talk to Vince about unlocking some fuel tables for a few LNFs that we are going big turbo on... Also, I agree with your statement about the LSx guys, but remember they are paying for those custom OS's.
P&P Tuning
420.5whp / 359.8wtq
Id be willing to pay if it makes my life easier...
I'd pay for that. And all arguing about if its possible or not, it would be really sweet to be able to tune the GM S/C flash.
I'm on a fake 2.5, and I'd be willing to shell out an additional 250 max if it was offered....it's just more room to grow without lost res, so I'm game. But by the time this might even be out (realistically), I most likely will be out of the j scene and into something a little more fun.
I know Vince is a busy man, and i have NOT yet gotten clarification from him, but he claims he has this 2.5bar reflash unlocked. I tried following up with him with no response yet from earlier this week. I suspect HE can edit the parameters with his software and hardware, but i don't know if its at a point where it's editable with HPT.
I would suspect it may be difficult for him to market this tune on a customer by customer basis while keeping it editable. For the LNF, you flash his tune, and then overwrite the calibration because what he changes isn't unlocked by hpt (hidden parameters). SO you never need to read the tune. In our case, we would need to read the tune in order to get the speed density tables. If he cannot lock the tune from being read, one person could buy it and distribute it endlessly using HPT. Morality aside, I want a player like Vince in my corner so whatever he has to do to make a reasonable profit on this is ok with me (locked by VIN maybe?) Who knows, i'm just going off LNF experience.
In anycase, if there is truely interest, I would not hesitate to visit the Trifecta website., hit the contact us link and send a quick email expressing your interest and willingness to pay for an editable version of this reflash.
Man oh man if this could happen. I'd pay what ever. I mean hell I'm already out 650 for hpt.
SLO CAV (the autoxing one) wrote:Man oh man if this could happen. I'd pay what ever. I mean hell I'm already out 650 for hpt.
Email Vince and tell him that! I figure the more people that show interest and willingness to pay the better
If this guy has actually figured it out I will drive my Cavalier to HPT head quarters and litterally @!#$ bricks on their doorstep. Anyways hes got my email.
Hahn Stage II - Mitsu TD06-20g |3" Turbo-back Exhaust | 61mm Bored TB |
HP Tuners | Innovate WB02 | Spec Stage 3 | Team Green LSD | TurboTech Upper | Full Addco Sways | Sportlines & Yellows |
It has, in fact, been done.
To recoup my R&D costs, I would be willing to release this flash to the community, unrestricted, if enough people are willing to purchase it. If you are interested, as was suggested earlier, please send me an email via the site.
When time comes to tune my car id definatly pay....it makes all our lives so much easier....also levels the playing field when it comes to 2.4<eco battle
Niceeee Im willing to pay if its easier to tune lol..
Vince Geglia wrote:It has, in fact, been done.
Jbody.org All Time Epic Win
Hahn Stage II - Mitsu TD06-20g |3" Turbo-back Exhaust | 61mm Bored TB |
HP Tuners | Innovate WB02 | Spec Stage 3 | Team Green LSD | TurboTech Upper | Full Addco Sways | Sportlines & Yellows |
