MTX-L Wideband as factory Narrowband and HPTuners... - Tuning Forum

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MTX-L Wideband as factory Narrowband and HPTuners...
Wednesday, March 07, 2012 8:07 AM
Since I finally have my cavalier running I have been researching installing my MTX-L wideband with HPTuners. I believe I fully understand everything needed for HPTuners side of things.
How to Set Up a Wideband in HP Tuners...Thanks Ryan for this link.
Voltage offset Excel
how to video
Innovate Motorsports wrote:

Optionally, the YELLOW (Analog out 1) and/or BROWN (Analog out 2) can be connected to the analog inputs of other devices such as data loggers or ECUs. If either one or both of these wires are not being used isolate and tape the wire(s) out of the way. The default analog outputs are as follows: Analog output one (yellow) is 0V = 7.35 AFR and 5V = 22.39 AFR. Analog output two (brown) is 1.1V = 14 AFR
and .1V = 15 AFR. This is a simulated narrowband signal.

My thoughts are using one output for HPTuners and the second output in place of my factory narrow band.


Furthermore, does anyone know the EXACT range the factory PCM is looking for? Voltage wise and response rate wise?
I can adjust the Response speed, Warmup output, Output at Error, and voltage range. Attached are the pictures for reference.




The placement of my front O2 sensor in my header is about perfect placement for my wideband.
Innovate Motorsports wrote:

On CATALYTIC CONVERTER equipped vehicles:
Install the oxygen sensorís bung upstream from the catalytic converter (a bung is included in the MTX-L kit). The bung must be installed in the exhaust pipe at the side or on top, NOT on the bottom of the exhaust pipe. Any decent muffler or exhaust shop can do this for you. The wide-band oxygen sensor is then installed into the bung to take a reading. The ideal position is between 10:00 and 2:00 position. The maximum temperature of the sensor at the bung (the sensor hexagon) should not exceed 500 oC or 900 oF. If these temperatures are exceeded in your application you should install the Innovate Motorsports Heat-Sink Bung extender (P/N 3729 HBX-1).

Link to MTX-L manual for Reference.


Any thoughts recommendations or any input is welcomed.






Edited 4 time(s). Last edited Wednesday, March 07, 2012 8:22 AM
Attachments
Narrowband1.jpg (44k)
Narrowband2.jpg (70k)




Re: MTX-L Wideband as factory Narrowband and HPTuners...
Wednesday, March 07, 2012 9:36 AM
Why would you need to monitor your narrowband? Curious?



Re: MTX-L Wideband as factory Narrowband and HPTuners...
Wednesday, March 07, 2012 10:06 AM
I'm not trying to motor my narrow band per-say. I want to remove my factory front O2 narrow band sensor, and use my wide band sensor to emulate the factory sensor....and function the same as the factory sensor.

My MTX-L wide band supports three outputs.
One to MTX-L gauge or Serial output
One to HPTuners
One to factory PCM in-place of front O2 Narrow band sensor





Edited 1 time(s). Last edited Wednesday, March 07, 2012 10:08 AM


Re: MTX-L Wideband as factory Narrowband and HPTuners...
Wednesday, March 07, 2012 11:58 AM
I have not done this because I do not agree with it. Wideband has to be calibrated regularly, which now means your narrow band has to be.

But it can be done, and the ECU is looking for 5volts.



FU Tuning



Re: MTX-L Wideband as factory Narrowband and HPTuners...
Wednesday, March 07, 2012 12:09 PM
I already had a second bung so I just left the stock narrowband in. But from what I gather it's super easy with the MTX-L. You connect a wire in the wideband harness to your single purple narrowband wire and set the gauge to output a narrowband signal. Done.



Paying someone to install parts and bragging about it being fast, is like watching someone bang your wife and being proud to raise their kids.
Re: MTX-L Wideband as factory Narrowband and HPTuners...
Wednesday, March 07, 2012 1:21 PM
So can anyone confirm the voltage? I have been told 0-1 and 0-5v after the sensor reaches temperature.





Re: MTX-L Wideband as factory Narrowband and HPTuners...
Wednesday, March 07, 2012 1:40 PM
MD Enforcer, I can tell you why you will have a hard time with this because I work for a O2 sensor company.

1. your stock sensor is a switching sensor and operates on a 0.1V ( lean) to 0.9V ( rich) signal

2. the wideband actually sees AFR instead of oxygen and is not a switching sensor, this presents 2 problems

1. the wideband works on a 450 millivolt input signal via the asic through either direct compensation or indirect depending on the controller, this voltage is not transmitable as it will not input to anything but a wideband controller, in the controller is where it convers the signal it receives into a 0-5v reading. It does this from a pre-programmed linear output chart.

2. the output of a afr sensor is achieved much differently as it uses a voltage pumping cell and IP detection and Ip current or limiting cell.

In short this is like using the best technology to mock old technology, it just simply will not work, if it did you would need the cal files for the wideband controller.



Re: MTX-L Wideband as factory Narrowband and HPTuners...
Wednesday, March 07, 2012 3:34 PM
Im highly considering of getting this wideband


GMR has got nothing on this
Re: MTX-L Wideband as factory Narrowband and HPTuners...
Wednesday, March 07, 2012 5:14 PM
I have used this wideband, installed it for a friend and tuned his car with it, works great.

The more I think on this I remember my hanynes manual (which I can't find right now) having the voltages the eCU see's, and I believe it is millivolts.



FU Tuning



Re: MTX-L Wideband as factory Narrowband and HPTuners...
Wednesday, March 07, 2012 7:22 PM
Nope, only millivolts if it's a wideband, switching would be under 1 volt.



Re: MTX-L Wideband as factory Narrowband and HPTuners...
Wednesday, March 07, 2012 7:52 PM
Addicted to meth wrote:

I have not done this because I do not agree with it. Wideband has to be calibrated regularly, which now means your narrow band has to be.

But it can be done, and the ECU is looking for 5volts.


what?
the ecu is looking for 0-1volt... thats what "Narrow" means in narrowband.

using a wideband to emulate a narrowband means you don't have to add any bungs to the exhaust, and you don't have to worry about one sensor blocking the other in the exhaust stream... way simpler to do.

I'm not sure what you mean when you say "now the narrowband has to be calibrated also"..? if you have a wideband in the car, it needs to be periodically recalibrated anyway.... the WB02 sensor is pulling dual duty, so regardless if you have a wideband emulating a narrowband or have a narrow AND a wideband, the wideband is gonna have to be recalibrated anyway so I'm not sure what your point is.








Re: MTX-L Wideband as factory Narrowband and HPTuners...
Wednesday, March 07, 2012 7:56 PM
jason norwood wrote:

In short this is like using the best technology to mock old technology, it just simply will not work, if it did you would need the cal files for the wideband controller.


wrong.


I drove my car for over a year with only an LC-1 providing not only a WB signal to HPT for tuning purposes, but also to an XD-16 gauge for real-time AFR monitoring as well as emulating the 0-1volt signal that the stock PCM was looking for.

most wideband controllers that have more than one output can be programmed to emulate (pretty accurately) a narrowband output, and be used as the switching 0-1V source that the PCM is looking for.


again, this simplifies installation into the exhaust stream (no extra bungs, no "sensor blocking" problems), and is the main reason why someone would do this, and has been accomplished many times in the past on multiple other platforms.





Re: MTX-L Wideband as factory Narrowband and HPTuners...
Wednesday, March 07, 2012 8:36 PM
DaFlyinSkwirl (Pj) v2.0 wrote:

jason norwood wrote:

In short this is like using the best technology to mock old technology, it just simply will not work, if it did you would need the cal files for the wideband controller.


wrong.


I drove my car for over a year with only an LC-1 providing not only a WB signal to HPT for tuning purposes, but also to an XD-16 gauge for real-time AFR monitoring as well as emulating the 0-1volt signal that the stock PCM was looking for.

most wideband controllers that have more than one output can be programmed to emulate (pretty accurately) a narrowband output, and be used as the switching 0-1V source that the PCM is looking for.


again, this simplifies installation into the exhaust stream (no extra bungs, no "sensor blocking" problems), and is the main reason why someone would do this, and has been accomplished many times in the past on multiple other platforms.


When Qwibby first was fired up he was running on only an LC-1, it was emulating a narrowband sensor all the way up until it received it's first breath of boosted air. no issues at all
Re: MTX-L Wideband as factory Narrowband and HPTuners...
Wednesday, March 07, 2012 8:45 PM
Quote:


I'm not sure what you mean when you say "now the narrowband has to be calibrated also"..? if you have a wideband in the car, it needs to be periodically recalibrated anyway.... the WB02 sensor is pulling dual duty, so regardless if you have a wideband emulating a narrowband or have a narrow AND a wideband, the wideband is gonna have to be recalibrated anyway so I'm not sure what your point is.


I was simply saying you have to recalibrated so often.

A true narrowband never has to be.

Also in the HPT scanner it reads the factory o2 sensor in millivolts.



FU Tuning



Re: MTX-L Wideband as factory Narrowband and HPTuners...
Wednesday, March 07, 2012 10:59 PM
Addicted to meth wrote:

Quote:


I'm not sure what you mean when you say "now the narrowband has to be calibrated also"..? if you have a wideband in the car, it needs to be periodically recalibrated anyway.... the WB02 sensor is pulling dual duty, so regardless if you have a wideband emulating a narrowband or have a narrow AND a wideband, the wideband is gonna have to be recalibrated anyway so I'm not sure what your point is.


I was simply saying you have to recalibrated so often.

A true narrowband never has to be.

Also in the HPT scanner it reads the factory o2 sensor in millivolts.


so what? recalibration = more accuracy.
widebands measure afr differently than narrowbands...

narrowbands are more reliable and cheaper but are less accurate.
widebands are more accurate, but more expensive and less reliable (calib).

A "true" narrowband voltage sweep is garbage.
As was previously mentioned, its more or less a switch... its either rich or lean.

If you're already willing to install a wideband for tuning purposes, why not use one sensor to do two jobs instead of using two sensors?
Way more efficient and simple to emulate a narrowband signal... especially since the sweep for a narrowband is stupid to even bring up, its not linear like a wideband... which is why, coupled with its 0-1V range, its so innacurate.

The PCM just wants to see a rich/lean switch from the narrowband... that is all it does.

WBO2 emulation > running NB and WBO2 sensors







Re: MTX-L Wideband as factory Narrowband and HPTuners...
Thursday, March 08, 2012 3:43 AM
I'll be checking my Haynes manual and my other repair manual to see if I can confirm my one wire front O2 sensor is 0-1V or possibly 0-1.1V.

PJ thanks for all the help.

Side note. I feel better that I need to calibrate my wide band / narrow band every few months. At least I'll know it is operating correctly, and accurately.








Re: MTX-L Wideband as factory Narrowband and HPTuners...
Thursday, March 08, 2012 6:53 AM
PJ can you tell me of a wideband unit that puts out a 0-5 for logging and a 0.1 to 0.9 volt for the ECU?



Re: MTX-L Wideband as factory Narrowband and HPTuners...
Thursday, March 08, 2012 6:57 AM
Mine can, and I believe all Innovate Motorsports Wide bands can.






Re: MTX-L Wideband as factory Narrowband and HPTuners...
Thursday, March 08, 2012 7:02 AM
^Yup, it's pretty standard technology with Widebands now.



Paying someone to install parts and bragging about it being fast, is like watching someone bang your wife and being proud to raise their kids.
Re: MTX-L Wideband as factory Narrowband and HPTuners...
Thursday, March 08, 2012 7:43 AM
DaFlyinSkwirl (Pj) v2.0 wrote:

Addicted to meth wrote:

Quote:


I'm not sure what you mean when you say "now the narrowband has to be calibrated also"..? if you have a wideband in the car, it needs to be periodically recalibrated anyway.... the WB02 sensor is pulling dual duty, so regardless if you have a wideband emulating a narrowband or have a narrow AND a wideband, the wideband is gonna have to be recalibrated anyway so I'm not sure what your point is.


I was simply saying you have to recalibrated so often.

A true narrowband never has to be.

Also in the HPT scanner it reads the factory o2 sensor in millivolts.


so what? recalibration = more accuracy.
widebands measure afr differently than narrowbands...

narrowbands are more reliable and cheaper but are less accurate.
widebands are more accurate, but more expensive and less reliable (calib).

A "true" narrowband voltage sweep is garbage.
As was previously mentioned, its more or less a switch... its either rich or lean.

If you're already willing to install a wideband for tuning purposes, why not use one sensor to do two jobs instead of using two sensors?
Way more efficient and simple to emulate a narrowband signal... especially since the sweep for a narrowband is stupid to even bring up, its not linear like a wideband... which is why, coupled with its 0-1V range, its so innacurate.

The PCM just wants to see a rich/lean switch from the narrowband... that is all it does.

WBO2 emulation > running NB and WBO2 sensors


I do not understand your beef.


From my view I would not use the wideband to do this on my personal car. I do not keep my wideband on the car at all times. I use my wideband to tune peoples cars.

I would think if the wideband is out of calibration that it would then be given a false, or incorrect signal to the ECU, which could throw it off.


With that I know people have done this and it works, it is not for me, is that a issue for you PJ?



FU Tuning



Re: MTX-L Wideband as factory Narrowband and HPTuners...
Thursday, March 08, 2012 11:22 AM
I was not aware that innovate had 2 extra analog outputs.... oh well.




Re: MTX-L Wideband as factory Narrowband and HPTuners...
Thursday, March 08, 2012 11:53 AM
jason norwood wrote:

I was not aware that innovate had 2 extra analog outputs.... oh well.

I'm pretty sure a lot of newer wide bands now come with two analog outs.







Re: MTX-L Wideband as factory Narrowband and HPTuners...
Thursday, March 08, 2012 12:25 PM
Ours does not. Nor does our new secert one that no one knows about ....



Re: MTX-L Wideband as factory Narrowband and HPTuners...
Thursday, March 08, 2012 12:43 PM
Higgins, its more for permanent install. If you don't install permanently, then I can see your point of view.


Norwood, almost all widebands have multiple outputs.. The innovate LC1 technically has three outputs, serial (direct to xd16 gauge), and two programmable outputs.. Each one can be either 0-5v or 0-1v.

Pretty sure AEM widebands have multiple outputs as well.





Re: MTX-L Wideband as factory Narrowband and HPTuners...
Thursday, March 08, 2012 12:47 PM
PJ Read my above comment I guess we are behind the industry lol



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