ION/Compression Sense Ignition (No cam sensor)- Everything I've found For MS people - Tuning Forum

Forum Post / Reply
You must log in before you can post or reply to messages.
ION/Compression Sense Ignition (No cam sensor)- Everything I've found For MS people
Thursday, July 26, 2012 9:35 PM
First off, I'm still learning about L61 (02-05) and other motors that have the DI cassette that generates its own "cam" signal. I'll keep this updated as I figure this out more, and anyone who knows anything about using this with mega squirt please chime in and help!

Right now they're just links. Just want it all in the same place. I'll compile everything relevant to L61's ignition at a later date. My overall goal is to drive 3 wire COP's on an L61, and have an internal module to drive the coils, and all the CSI stuff.

http://www.msextra.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=125&t=38200&p=274457&hilit=DI+cassette#p274457
http://www.msextra.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=125&t=44536&p=317239&hilit=DI+cassette#p317239
http://www.motor.com/article.asp?article_ID=853 (download the PDF it has pictures )

http://www.j-body.org/forums/read.php?f=64&i=10913&t=10913&p=1
This is pretty much an instruction on how to downgrade to an older DI cassette to run ignition.

https://sites.google.com/site/ys3al35l/
Quote:

As for driving the DI cassette, megasquirt cannot yet use combustion sense to determine which cylinder just fired as it does in the stock Saab installation (you will need a cam sensor) and it does not use ion sense (knock). Ion Sense is very interesting but will require a bit more coding to get it to a) discharge for the appropriate time period to be able to read out that information and b) window the data out on this line so that it is not reading during the combustion phase. As it is, the code mod pulls each spark line low for 1ms to fire the plug. Spec is 0.5ms for it to just fire. To actually use ion sense, it must discharge during the time it needs to read for knock, so it needs to be held low for another 60 degrees according to this:



I'm going to grab a spare ICM from my junkyard, and see if somehow the CSI parts can be hacked and put into the MS unit, to run wasted spark. It's going to be a fun journey to figure out COP with ION sension/CSI.

Again if anyone has any knowledge on this, please chime in!



I roll on steelies. Work-in-progress daily-sleeper potential.
http://www.j-body.org/classifieds/engine/60493/

Re: ION/Compression Sense Ignition (No cam sensor)- Everything I've found For MS people
Friday, July 27, 2012 6:29 AM
This is fairly old technology, Delphi wrote a peice about this when they came up with the technology. We get questions about this all the time at work as people with Harleys are only told to run the Harley plug for the Ion-sense Ignition, when in reality all it does is measure over the gap of the spark plug.



Re: ION/Compression Sense Ignition (No cam sensor)- Everything I've found For MS people
Friday, July 27, 2012 7:53 AM
I get how it works. I read the delphi article, and also a letter someone from the MSextra forums sent them. Delphi won't release any specific designs/schematics.

My overall goal is to design a module for running COP w/ sequential fuel using mega squirt.

The east part is getting it run wasted spark, since that how the ignition works from factory. The hard part is going to get it full sequential with a usable cam phasing signal. Then you get into Peak Pressure Point, and Knock sensing.

It's going to come down to custom MS code most likely, but my plan of action as of now is to:

Dissect the stock ICM and attempt to reverse engineer a schematic for it.
Re-engineer high current coil drivers w/ CSI inside the MS
Possibly find some delphi COP's with ion sensing.

The number one goal is to run full sequential on the 7x crank wheel, without a cam sensor.

Any info/links/articles is helpful!
On my way to the yard now to grab some ICM's and a spare harness.



I roll on steelies. Work-in-progress daily-sleeper potential.
http://www.j-body.org/classifieds/engine/60493/
Re: ION/Compression Sense Ignition (No cam sensor)- Everything I've found For MS people
Friday, July 27, 2012 8:23 AM
Eric,

I do have this info but i am not supposed to release it, worked with a Delphi engineer and he supplied it. Sorry.



Re: ION/Compression Sense Ignition (No cam sensor)- Everything I've found For MS people
Friday, July 27, 2012 8:53 AM
I'm not looking for a specific schematic, or anything with a patent. Just some advice

OR you should work with me on developing this ad-on to megasquirt, sell it to B&G or its suppliers, and make millions! MUAHAHAHA!



I roll on steelies. Work-in-progress daily-sleeper potential.
http://www.j-body.org/classifieds/engine/60493/
Re: ION/Compression Sense Ignition (No cam sensor)- Everything I've found For MS people
Friday, July 27, 2012 4:14 PM
In case anyone was wondering what the inside of your ICM looks like:



(After about an hour of careful dremeling)

It's a shame they couldn't make it easier. Say by labeling the values of everything lol.
I know I can get the resistor values, and the 2 silver things tith the 2 leads coming out of them are 80v capacitors... I think. The hard and maybe impossible part is figuring out the chip with the 16 something tiny leads coming off of it is. I think its the brains of the sensing.

Electrical engineers please chime in now! haha.



I roll on steelies. Work-in-progress daily-sleeper potential.
http://www.j-body.org/classifieds/engine/60493/
Re: ION/Compression Sense Ignition (No cam sensor)- Everything I've found For MS people
Wednesday, August 01, 2012 8:43 PM
U sir deserve that that email that u requested


GMR has got nothing on this
Re: ION/Compression Sense Ignition (No cam sensor)- Everything I've found For MS people
Monday, August 06, 2012 1:31 PM
Making some Headwork I see, however how do you plan to get the patented specs on how it measures what it does? This will also be different on your application, depending on mods



Re: ION/Compression Sense Ignition (No cam sensor)- Everything I've found For MS people
Tuesday, August 07, 2012 2:23 PM
The hard part is going to be what I said above, you need to extract the values, or know someone that knows the values that this technology uses, this will most likely not be worth the time you are putting into it, just sayin...



Re: ION/Compression Sense Ignition (No cam sensor)- Everything I've found For MS people
Tuesday, August 07, 2012 4:13 PM
Or run an MSD distributor and have a cam signal built in?

Sorry but the Ion sensing is a cool setup, I just don't see how it's worth all the work. There is not that much benefit to it.



Buildin' n' Boostin for 08' - Alex Richards
Re: ION/Compression Sense Ignition (No cam sensor)- Everything I've found For MS people
Tuesday, August 07, 2012 4:53 PM
Ion sensing isn't such a big deal in regards to the ecotec. It's a big deal in terms of aftermarket standalone, where you can use your spark plugs as PPP sensors, knock sensors, and cam phasing. The less wires to run on a standalone, the better.

I've been reading papers written by an "unnamed source" who's developed an ion sensing interface using a TI chip with a full interface on his laptop.
Been trying to get a hold of him, but apparently he really doesn't want to share any specifics.

^ I'm probally going to end up with a hybrid LSJ/L61 to run full sequential via MS next season, but this is way too interesting to drop. I'm in over my head with projects, but I tinker here and there with this.



I roll on steelies. Work-in-progress daily-sleeper potential.
http://www.j-body.org/classifieds/engine/60493/

Re: ION/Compression Sense Ignition (No cam sensor)- Everything I've found For MS people
Wednesday, August 08, 2012 4:33 PM
Eric Knight wrote:



I've been reading papers written by an "unnamed source" who's developed an ion sensing interface using a TI chip with a full interface on his laptop.
Been trying to get a hold of him, but apparently he really doesn't want to share any specifics.


I've read his stuff too, in fact I was gearing up to do an independant study on it... good stuff!



Buildin' n' Boostin for 08' - Alex Richards
Re: ION/Compression Sense Ignition (No cam sensor)- Everything I've found For MS people
Thursday, August 09, 2012 1:29 AM
Alex Richards wrote:

Eric Knight wrote:



I've been reading papers written by an "unnamed source" who's developed an ion sensing interface using a TI chip with a full interface on his laptop.
Been trying to get a hold of him, but apparently he really doesn't want to share any specifics.


I've read his stuff too, in fact I was gearing up to do an independant study on it... good stuff!


I'll team up with you after I finish my build.



I roll on steelies. Work-in-progress daily-sleeper potential.
http://www.j-body.org/classifieds/engine/60493/
Re: ION/Compression Sense Ignition (No cam sensor)- Everything I've found For MS people
Sunday, August 19, 2012 1:19 AM
Alex Richards wrote:

Or run an MSD distributor and have a cam signal built in?

Sorry but the Ion sensing is a cool setup, I just don't see how it's worth all the work. There is not that much benefit to it.


I totally overlooked this.

Is there another way to get a cam signal from the L61?

Would work great in the short term.



I roll on steelies. Work-in-progress daily-sleeper potential.
http://www.j-body.org/classifieds/engine/60493/
Re: ION/Compression Sense Ignition (No cam sensor)- Everything I've found For MS people
Sunday, August 19, 2012 8:34 AM
Eric Knight wrote:

Alex Richards wrote:

Or run an MSD distributor and have a cam signal built in?

Sorry but the Ion sensing is a cool setup, I just don't see how it's worth all the work. There is not that much benefit to it.


I totally overlooked this.

Is there another way to get a cam signal from the L61?

Would work great in the short term.


The MSD dizzy is designed to be a standalone to be used with an ignition box. So it has an internal sensor for cam sensing.

Although if its in the interim, I don't see why waste spark setup would be all that bad to do.



Buildin' n' Boostin for 08' - Alex Richards
Re: ION/Compression Sense Ignition (No cam sensor)- Everything I've found For MS people
Sunday, August 19, 2012 10:52 PM
why not swap the LSJ head on it has a cam pos sensor built into it


RIP Cpl Derek Kerns And Cpl Robby Reyes
24th MEU VMM-261 (REIN) V22 Crewchiefs
11 April 2012 Morocco (African Lion)
Re: ION/Compression Sense Ignition (No cam sensor)- Everything I've found For MS people
Sunday, August 19, 2012 11:47 PM
That was mentioned for the build.

I think the first thing I'm going to try is using the cam-out signal from the ecotec ICM for cam phasing in MS, its a weird signal, but I bet it can be done.
Theres a million options of getting a standalone to work and figure out phasing, but this is so interesting, and if you get PPP to work, thats balls deep.

PPP is the main goal pretty much, phasing is easy... individual pressure sensors run pretty expensive, then again the less wiring the better.



I roll on steelies. Work-in-progress daily-sleeper potential.
http://www.j-body.org/classifieds/engine/60493/
Forum Post / Reply
You must log in before you can post or reply to messages.

 

Start New Topic Advanced Search