Sunfire reaches 20degree Spark ADV. over Stock - Tuning Forum

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Sunfire reaches 20degree Spark ADV. over Stock
Friday, July 07, 2006 1:30 PM
right click save as.

thats my file i been working on...as of end of last ngiht i have spark advanced 20degrees in most areas. still working on getting rid of KR completely. just dont have the gas at the moment wasted a lot last night. 1st and 2nd gears pull amazingly and ZERO KR...but i wish i could say the same as 3rd gear.



MY 2003 SUNFIRE 15.33@88.5mph

"A N/A ecotec is not gonna give Honda's and Mitsu's that much of a run for their
money unless their blown or bottle fed.GM is still smokin crack!"
~1QWKZ24
www.streetracing.org, 08/2001

Re: Sunfire reaches 20degree Spark ADV. over Stock
Friday, July 07, 2006 1:39 PM
I was also able to advance my timing way past the stock tables, and by pulling a degree or 2 where it knocked, eliminate KR as well. I found that the taller the gear, the harder the engine has to work, so the more prone to KR it is, but that's where you want to get rid of it the most as well. Have you started playing with your AF's at all yet? Don't get too carried away with spark advance, as tempting as it is, because if you end up leaning out the power curve from stock, you'll have to readjust your timing all over again to get rid of the KR under leaner conditions. I'm now running regular gas, and running far more timing than the stock tune on premium would allow, and only had to drop 1-3 degrees in various parts of the powerband to eliminate KR over my HO PE table.

Really wakes the car up though doesn't it?


15.3 @ 89.97mph, 14's on the way?
Re: Sunfire reaches 20degree Spark ADV. over Stock
Friday, July 07, 2006 1:51 PM
Please step away froim the tuning software...


sig not found
Re: Sunfire reaches 20degree Spark ADV. over Stock
Friday, July 07, 2006 2:03 PM
protomec wrote:

Please step away froim the tuning software...


please explain....i'm just doing normal spark advance until knock is picked up then drop the spark back down 1-2degrees... as for leaning out my mixtures to much my a/f ratio guage isnt reading anytihng different at all. i did adjust my a/f setting look on the file its there... if i blow it up thats on me and i'll fix it. so please i started this thread for some thoughtful input not BS...so please dont bother posting if u dont have some insight...thank you Ian for ur response



MY 2003 SUNFIRE 15.33@88.5mph

"A N/A ecotec is not gonna give Honda's and Mitsu's that much of a run for their
money unless their blown or bottle fed.GM is still smokin crack!"
~1QWKZ24
www.streetracing.org, 08/2001
Re: Sunfire reaches 20degree Spark ADV. over Stock
Friday, July 07, 2006 2:15 PM
GM did not install a knock sensor as a "tuning aid". Nor does it function as any sort of a tuning benchmark.
Tuning by monitoring knock retard is not correct in the slightest.

20degrees over stock is simply wrong.
I am not the slightest bit inclined to waste my time writing a paper on timing's effects on combustion, just to make it clear to you why its wrong... so I won't.

If that annoys you, so be it. If you want to call it BS, you can do that too, but people who know me know I don't post BS.


sig not found
Re: Sunfire reaches 20degree Spark ADV. over Stock
Friday, July 07, 2006 2:31 PM
protomec wrote:

but people who know me know I don't post BS.


I guess I don't know you.

But on this subject, he is completely right. 20 degrees over stock? That's madness - I don't even want to KNOW what your airfuel #'s are like right now, or your EGT's.

You simply cannot tune by KR alone.

Please stop tuning until you have all the tools to do so, otherwise you're just going to blow your motor.

-Chris-



-Sweetness-
-Turbocharged-
Slowly but surely may some day win this race...
Re: Sunfire reaches 20degree Spark ADV. over Stock
Friday, July 07, 2006 2:42 PM
well if u take PE base AFR vs ECT and multiply it by the PE multiplier vs rpm...would calculate my preset a/f ratio and let me know if i'm wrong but the computer attempts to stick around the preset values. and i spoke with shifted yesterday and he said he has tuned engines that had spark advance as much as 31 degrees.



MY 2003 SUNFIRE 15.33@88.5mph

"A N/A ecotec is not gonna give Honda's and Mitsu's that much of a run for their
money unless their blown or bottle fed.GM is still smokin crack!"
~1QWKZ24
www.streetracing.org, 08/2001
Re: Sunfire reaches 20degree Spark ADV. over Stock
Friday, July 07, 2006 2:46 PM
That's great - that's THOSE engines.

Every engine is different. Some like to run at 13.0:1 at wot and others need 12.0:1... ditto EGT's.

The point is - you have NO CLUE what you're doing to your motor right now save for knock.

On top of that you said you've got it 20 degrees spark advance over stock. Isn't stock in and around 20-22? I'm about to fire up HPT for the first time so forgive me on that one....

With that said that would put you at over 40 degrees, no?

Regardless, you CANNOT tune with just KR... if you don't care then you don't care. Your PE is USELESS in a WOT situation - it doesn't get ANY FEEDBACK from the 02 sensor... it just takes what it has for VE and your other parameters and tries to add fuel so it can achieve the desired A/F - it has no clue if it's really doing it or not.

-Chris-



-Sweetness-
-Turbocharged-
Slowly but surely may some day win this race...
Re: Sunfire reaches 20degree Spark ADV. over Stock
Friday, July 07, 2006 3:05 PM
What other tools does he have to his aid? He is doing it based on what he had. Obviously if he had an EGT guage, he would see more so what hes doing. So blindly, he was just increasing increasing until he say KR, and kept his eye on the a/f ratio. He had 2 tools to his power, and he used them both. Its his decision to do it otherwise.
Re: Sunfire reaches 20degree Spark ADV. over Stock
Friday, July 07, 2006 3:20 PM
Fst Cavy wrote:

What other tools does he have to his aid?


A dyno. You can actually lose hp long before detonation from too much timing advance.


- 93 mph in the 1/8 mile
Member of J-Body Of Michigan.

Re: Sunfire reaches 20degree Spark ADV. over Stock
Friday, July 07, 2006 3:44 PM
yup ron tuned my car. I see somewhere from 30 to 35 degrees advanced with no knock on shell v power 93 oct. love the extra pull but im soon to be boosted and cant wait to get even more out of my car.


Now Powered By TEAM GREEN

http://www.cardomain.com/ride/827643
boost will be soon for me....

Re: Sunfire reaches 20degree Spark ADV. over Stock
Friday, July 07, 2006 3:49 PM
Just to reiterate, I"m running in the neighborhood of 30-35 degrees advance at WOT in the powerband, but I've also used a wideband to put my AF's in the 12.5-12.8 range. 20 degrees is too much, that would make for somewhere around 45+ degrees advance at WOT, and if you have screenshots of this, I'd love to see them.


15.3 @ 89.97mph, 14's on the way?
Re: Sunfire reaches 20degree Spark ADV. over Stock
Friday, July 07, 2006 3:51 PM
this is all the whole point of testing and tuning. sure i dont have access to a WBo2 or a dyno but what i did was advanced it 2 degrees seen no knock so advanced it a little further and realized the car started to pull harder and harder. but seriously how many of the people posted already tuned (whichever way you wanted to) an n/a ecotec....now if anyone could get their own head out of their own a$s and start helping bc thats only reason i posted... it would be appreciated. thats whats wrong with this place people are so quick to jump down other peoples backs but if no one has done it yet to a ecotec how do u know that a large amount of advanced spark advance. i'm not saying i'm right but if some cars need that 31 degrees of advancment doesnt mean others dont need the same thing. and after looking at my histograms i'm running about 10-12 degreees of spark advance at top end. top end as 95+ MAP at 5600rpms and above. but b4 that i'm running 20 degrees advance.

i'm no guru just testing and tuning that is all. if i blow it up i guess i'm SOL then.





MY 2003 SUNFIRE 15.33@88.5mph

"A N/A ecotec is not gonna give Honda's and Mitsu's that much of a run for their
money unless their blown or bottle fed.GM is still smokin crack!"
~1QWKZ24
www.streetracing.org, 08/2001
Re: Sunfire reaches 20degree Spark ADV. over Stock
Friday, July 07, 2006 5:43 PM
mine with stock ecu settings hits 27-30 degrees advance with 12.3:1 AFR at WOT and gets maybe 1-2 degrees KR if that, at WOT running 90 octane



The one, the only, ME.
Re: Sunfire reaches 20degree Spark ADV. over Stock
Friday, July 07, 2006 5:44 PM
Quote:

that would make for somewhere around 45+ degrees advance at WOT, and if you have screenshots of this, I'd love to see them.


i have a pic of my HO PE table...but my histograms are showin me that my spark isnt even reaching as high as the numbers i provided



MY 2003 SUNFIRE 15.33@88.5mph

"A N/A ecotec is not gonna give Honda's and Mitsu's that much of a run for their
money unless their blown or bottle fed.GM is still smokin crack!"
~1QWKZ24
www.streetracing.org, 08/2001
Re: Sunfire reaches 20degree Spark ADV. over Stock
Friday, July 07, 2006 7:36 PM
thank you for making me smile, i needed a laugh for today



1989 Turbo Trans Am #82, 2007 Cobalt SS G85





Re: Sunfire reaches 20degree Spark ADV. over Stock
Saturday, July 08, 2006 6:29 PM
a lot of good info in that thread by slowolej... hope it helps you guys out!

http://www.j-body.org/forums/read.php?f=40&i=114421&t=114329#114421



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