I feel "physical reprisal" as GAM puts it a sign of poor leadership skils. What does that say about you if the only way you can get someone to listen to you is hit them. What would that drill instructor do if the recruit was built like a pro wrestler??
Unfortunatley in the miltary good leaders are often overshadowed by loud mouths, bullies, and ass kissers. In a combat situation i would much rather have my Marines follow me because they could trust me and know I could make the right desicions. Rather than having them follow me because I am a higher rank and will beat them if they dont. There are several styles of leadership used in the Marine corps (as you might be able to tell me and saint dont use the same one). You can use whichever you want as long as you stay within the guildines.... The drill instructor did not, and one day later a Marine is dead. Im interested in what the investagaion is going to turn up.
Proof that physical reprisals don't work: Royal Newfoundland Regiment in WWI. There were about 15000 troops, under British Command, and they were "disciplined" using the war cross: basically lashing them to the wheel of a cannon for a set number of hours. RNR ended up taking incredible casualties,and most were left on the cross after they died... to stop the suckers from rolling back too far.
Why were they disciplined this way? Buttons not shined enough, hiding behind a sandbag that's their only protection from machine gun bullets. Boots improperly shined, or falling apart (trench warfare... go figure).
Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.
After Boot Camp I don't believe that a Marine should be hit in any way, during Boot Camp there are limits. Do I believe that a DI should be allowed to choke a recruit or beat them until they are bloody, No I don't, however a punch to the gut or knee to the thigh to get the Recruit to "wake up" so to speak should be allowed, but not to the point where it endangers the life or injures the Recruit, hell I went through worse from other Recruits during routine training then the DIs ever did to me.
And I only believe in physical punishments to a point. Yes, I am very hard on my troops, but only when it is required, if I have a Marine that I have to tell two or three times to help me on a piece of gear or to start work, then I'm gonna be all over them, but the troops that I have out here I don't have to worry about, they allow me to be laid back because they know what to do and when to do it, without me or one of the other NCOs telling them to do it. You will also never see me writing up a charge sheet on a Marine unless they do something so bad that I have no other choice. I would much rather have the Marine do some push-ups or leg lifts or drag a 10-ton Floor Jack around then do some paper work on them and hurt their career, because I know what it's like to be on both sides of that, and I know I respected the Cpl. that had me making sand bags for being disrespectful as opposed to the Sgt. that wrote up a charge sheet and had me standing in front of the Company CO. I honestly don't care if the troops think I'm a jerk or not, because I let my job and knowledge speak for itself, and nowhere on my Warrant does it say that I have to be a nice guy or even well liked, as long as I'm fair and the job gets done. My Marines know I won't make them do anything I didn't do when I was a Lance Corporal, but they also know that I'm gonna hold them to the same standards I hold myself to and nothing more. I don't expect them to be perfect but if I'm out busting my butt on something, then I expect them to be right there with me busting their butt on the same thing.
Yella02-I promise I will return to you in one piece and this will stay up until I am safely home
If you haven't done it don't judge it. When I went through it there were always tons of qualified instructors on hand. One hting I'll always remember is the instructors taking turns jumping off the 10 m platform with their hands tied behind their backs and swimming the length of the pool. And there would be no way that the recruit would be allowed to attempt anything if he did not say he was ready. No one forced him to do anything. you just can't, Its called refusal to train. and that makes you pretty much an untouchable. Yes you'll get messed with more. but they can't make you. As for striking a recruit, It was called forceful correctiveness. You sure as hell remembered what you screwed up on after that. and its not as bad as its made out to be. Face it. the kid was a pussy. I dont think I had the time to write 7 letters home my entire time there. Maybe he should have taken the time to better himself instead of crying to mommy and daddy. They can't save you. the only person that can save you there is yourself.
^^^ Then, the question becomes, WTF was he doing in bootcamp in the first place?
Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.
The guy was probally just an easy targed for the drill instructors. Once he was in the actual marine corps he probally would have been very sucessfull.
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No one forced him to do anything.
a punch to the chest seems like forcing someone to me
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Face it. the kid was a pussy.
Why?? he didnt like boot camp... who did.
Some people take swimming for granted. You would be supprised at how many people have never been swimming and or are afraid of the water. Not to be racist but in my boot camp platoon about 50% of the african american recruits couldnt swim. The instructors just spent a little extra time with them showing them the ropes. For some of them it was thier first time in a pool.
tmnt328 wrote:The guy was probally just an easy targed for the drill instructors. Once he was in the actual marine corps he probally would have been very sucessfull.
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No one forced him to do anything.
a punch to the chest seems like forcing someone to me
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Face it. the kid was a pussy.
Why?? he didnt like boot camp... who did.
Some people take swimming for granted. You would be supprised at how many people have never been swimming and or are afraid of the water. Not to be racist but in my boot camp platoon about 50% of the african american recruits couldnt swim. The instructors just spent a little extra time with them showing them the ropes. For some of them it was thier first time in a pool.
yeah that's great, but if he can't cut it in boot camp how can you think when he gets into a real unit all of a sudden he will make a change and stop crying to mommy and daddy and become a man. that is a huge problem in the army, don't know aboot the marines since i was not one, but drills letting iffy soldiers through so the next unit can
fix the fact that they are sub par soldiers and then the same thing happens again until they show up to their first unit poorly trained and completely lacking in discipline. once there they have learned the system and who and when to
complain so that they can do as little as possible and become relatively untouchable through fear of harassment complaints.
it sucks that he died, no question aboot it and i feel for his families loss, but as long as a drill did not hold his head underwater then maybe just maybe darwin had something to do with it.
wrap your mind around it before you flame.
I've seen the video. He didnt get punched. he came at the drill instructor and the DI just reacted. he may not have intended to inflict harm on the DI but he came at him. and it didnt even look like he was hit. the DI just raised his forearm and the recruit jumped back
so if he didn't get punched then i am starting to believe that maybe he was one of those pussies that will never figure out on their own how to grow-up and be productive since it is easier and more therapeutic to cry to mommy and daddy. some of you may not agree but if that is the case then the military is much better off without him.
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just wondering what the milliray will look like in 10 years, get into action and the first shots are fired and they all curl up into the fetal position sucking there thumbs and crying for mommy.
Why dont you enlist and make a difference then. Do you know how many military members die every day protecting your right to make an idiotic statement like that?
This marine was in no way a "pussy" He followed the order to do something he was scared to death to do. That takes some balls. Unfortunatley he was improperley trained and supervied. You guys have probally never seen someone afraid of the water/cant swim. Not a pretty sight when they start freaking out.
It pisses me off that some of you act like its his own fault and deserved to die. Every marine isnt perfect but that dosent matter. We build off eachothers strenths and weakness to overcome obstacles. We dont have enough marines as it is, its dissapointing to lose another one sencelessly.
I remember in boot camp at Parris Island during drill when doing "inspection arms" I would always move my head to avoid hitting it with the m16.....the D.I. would come up to me and take my rifle and hit me over the head with it and asks me if it hurt....of course I said no, then they will say "then why the F did you move your head!". Also when taking showers ( you marines no what Im talking about) we would have to clean our web belts and if it was dirty the "crazy" D.I. would choke you with it, not to the point where your blue but just enough so you wouldn't forget next time.
Boot Camp is no joke, but the thing is....anyone is capable of doing it, so the looks of this guy has nothing to do with whether he should be in or not. D.I.'s have to do what they have to do. Its a job but it's their life. You know how much stress is on a D.I.? They have the highest divorce rate in the whole Marine Corps because once a platoon graduates they start it all over a week later or less....
I remembered when the company commander...usually a Captain would pay the barracks a visit, just before he arrived the D.I.'s, usually the senior would instruct everyone to say that they are recieving fare treatment and that no one was hit....and youll be so scared or motivated or just wanted to kiss the seniors arse that you would agree.
I don't know but I feel bad for his family and friends and should never have happened.
He should have been recycled or should have gone to the PCP platoon and do wets for a few weeks until his confidence was up. But that would of been up to the Senior D.I. Not to sound racist but it's been a proven fact that a lot of the black male recruits "when I was in" could not swim when it was time for wets so they were recycled and were taught to swim so they can graduate! Thats how it should have been done!
Just pointing out some things!
Alex
Sad, one accident with thousands of recruits a month and you all insult the service that defends your freedom while you sleep well at night in the states. SAd
Careful with your words.. Not everyone critisized the marines. I for one expressed concern, and disbelief. I found it hard to believe that people can be training at a pool and still drown. I expected that there would be people there capable of reviving a person who likely has lungs full of water and nothing else wrong. A person who would have sucumb in plain view of instructors and other recuits.
I know that the Marine Corps is a very valued group within the military that serves YOUR country. Ya, that's the other thing.. NMot everyone here is from the US.
PAX
Recruiters have the highest divorce rate in the Marine Corps, DIs get switched in and out between Duty positions and Administrative positions within the Recruit Training Battalion, also they can move on to the different parts of the Training Cycle, all of the Sergeants and above in the training areas are DIs, Usually there is a 2 week break between Cycles, but every once in a while they will get Back to Back cycles and graduate one Cycle and start up the next day. I've researched this fully, I have a Sgt. friend that is currently a DI, and I have worked for many former DIs, and had my heart set on becoming a DI myself until I heard about all the stupid BS that they have to deal, I still may eventually do it, but I'm leaning more towards MSG right now.
Yella02-I promise I will return to you in one piece and this will stay up until I am safely home
Mono-Sodium Glutamate?
You military types with your 3 letter words.. almost as bad as cops or engineers... (Or engineers working for cops... oops
)
Hahahaha: Sometimes the esophagus closes during drowning and spasms closed. That usually means that whatever is in the lungs (air, smoke, water, rectal hairs) stays in there. Not even CPR will get it open... usually the only way is by intubation, but if the spasming is that bad, they usually can't get in there fast enough to defeat the spasming.
Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.
Yeah, that's it GAM, ya prick. It's really Marine Security Guard, Marines are the guards at every United States Embassy in the world, it's a B-Billet just like DI, but you can earn a lot more money doing MSG then being a DI.
My whole point here is that Marine Corps Boot Camp has been toned down, even since I went through 2 and a half years ago. Yes, American Society has changed, kids have become lazier, parents don't punish thier kids by hitting them anymore, and kids expect instant recognition and praise even before the job is done. The Marine Corps is none of those things, you can't be lazy, you have to expect physical punishments, maybe not getting hit, but push-ups, flutter kicks, or dragging a 10-ton floor jack around, and you will very rarely get instant recognition and praise for doing a good job, either the job is done right or you do it again simple as that. If you do an outstanding job you may receive a Medal such as a Navy and Marine Corps Acheivment Medal, but you have to work above and beyond your MOS in order to receive one of those, not that it always works that way, but that's what it's supposed to be.
My former Company CO, and future Company XO was a DI and he was telling the Company about when he was a DI and how he asked the Docs why so many Recruits just don't make it through Boot Camp, the Doc gave him 2 reasons, 1.)Many Docs will just sign the paper saying to Drop the Recruit because they don't want to keep the Recruit in training and then have them do something stupid and then ruin the Docs career. The other reason was that Children today are raised constantly needing to be told that they're doing a good job, and that will never happen in Marine Corps Boot Camp, you will never be told Good Job, even if the Platoon nails every movement in Close-Order Drill perfectly, the DI will tell you to go back and do it again, to see if the Platoon can do it again and get that muscle memory and teamwork into the Platoon, you will never hear a DI tell a Recruit that they're doing a good job until maybe Graduation.
I'm not saying that the Marine Corps should go back to the way it was during the Vietnam era, or even the Early 1990s, like I said American Society has changed and the Marine Corps needs to change with it in order to get the most out of it's Recruits, However, Recruits, Parents, and Civilains alike can't expect Boot Camp to be anything less then the worst experience of the Recruits life up to that point. There is nothing in Boot Camp that is too physically demanding for any one to do, it's the atmosphere that breaks most people. Boot Camp is a Game, it's a Game between the DIs and the Recruits, the DIs stress out the Recruits to the point that nobody likes each other, there is constant fighting and bickering in the Squad Bay, especially during 3rd Phase, and the DIs single out Recruits to try and get the Platoon to "Police thier Own" and fix the recruit without dealing the DIs in it. The Singling out of certain Recruits will happen in every cycle until the end of the Marine Corps, their is always at least one Recruit that can't move fast enough, can't do enough Push-ups, can't stand still, etc. and the DIs will try to pit the Platoon against that one Recruit, in an effort to build solidarity within the Platoon and also see who the leaders are, and weed out the Recruits that just can't cut it period. There are a few Marines that slip through the cracks and are just dead weight to their Unit, and I've seen those Marines, but their are also many Marines that are determined not to let the Unit down, and even though they may not have been the best Recruit in Boot Camp they turned out to be stellar Marines and a true benefit to the Marine Corps, not because they're physically gifted, but because they don't want to let down another Marine, that's what keeps them going and that's what it's all about.
Just for some perspective on how what you do at Boot Camp doesn't mean anything in the Fleet here's a story about Myself and another Marine that was in my Company in Boot Camp. This other Marine was Honor Graduate of his Platoon, and Meritorious Lance Corporal out of Boot Camp, I graduated as a Private, and got promoted by time in service to both Private First Class and Lance Corporal, and then Combat Meritoriously to Corporal out here in Iraq. I hadn't seen the other Marine until I got out here to Iraq and I saw he was working at the PX, he didn't have his blouse on so I couldn't see his rank, I just assumed he was a Corporal possibly even a Sergeant, he was a Boot Camp Lance Corporal so he had to be at least a Corporal by now. Well, a couple of weeks later I saw the Marine in the Chow Hall, he was a Private First Class! Two and a half years after we had entered the Marine Corps, I had been promoted 3 times, and he had been Reduced in rank at least one time, possibly twice. So those Honor Grads out of Boot Camp just may be very shady people, or they're have a high PFT, Rifle or can Drill and that's it they have no other leadership qualities whatsoever and can end up being dead weight to their unit, just like someone who was dead weight to thier Platoon in Boot Camp.
Yella02-I promise I will return to you in one piece and this will stay up until I am safely home
update from military.com
his father says "he joined the marines for money for college", great.
if i had a dime for everytime i heard (whiny ass voice)"i didn't join to do this, i just want the college money" or "my recruiter said i would never go to the field" i would have enough to have R&D'd and given every j owner a stand alone engine management system for free and still have enough left over to send my great-great-great-great-great-great-great grandkids to the school of their choice for as long as they needed. no matter if the "recruiters lied" you would still have to know in the back of your mind, no matter how simple you are, that you are joining the military. not the extended boy/girl scout summer camp of happy wonders. yes everyone joins for their own reasons be it the true blue patriot type or those looking for something to help out to those trying to get away from where they are, no matter who or why you join you are still joining the military and now must deal with it.
Why the Marines for college money? Pick some POG MOS in the Army or the Air Force. Jeez.
O noes!
I couldn't help but notice a couple of comments to the effect of "blindly following orders".
Isn't that what the SS said about the WW2 war crimes? Just following orders.
I hope that you guys are meaning to follow the rules, ie you do what your CO says within reason. I mean if he tells you to kill the n*gger next to you, I'd hope you question that before following it...
I'd think the military teaches you to follow orders for better reasons than "Because I said so maggot!"
Smokey wrote:Why the Marines for college money? Pick some POG MOS in the Army or the Air Force. Jeez.
I would have to agree with that. If that kid could not swim, why choose the most demanding branch of the military. Maybe the kids parents wanted him to be a marine instead of a "lesser" branch. The full truth probably will never be known with everything that is going back and forth.
I will not join the army because I do not believe I would have the drive or leadership to be able to succeed at the right level. Hell, I am also scared as hell. However, if it did come down to a draft, I would want to join the marines. Then I would have to push myself to succeed.
A few people have been saying that there should never be hitting. What about people who join the marines for money and to say "Hey, I am a Moreen!!" but refuse to do anything while there? They could do nothing, not be forced to do anything, and just get mom and dad to get the others who hit him to go to jail. Some people may do it just for recognition. The marines are for people who want to be, ahem, all that they can be. Whiny kids who only want money do not belong.
Seriously, this thread should be done and saint- this isnt a novel writing contest-christ
for those that arent in the military i am in the marines and dude boot camp is no joke that kid that died could not swim and then the next day after trying to let people know that drowned there are arguments on here about having a life guard around the pool at all times and they are right some of the swimming exercises you do in boot camp are just nuts especially if you cant swim there are phases to the swimming exercises that you go through to see what level a swimmer you are designated if he couldnt swim he should never have left the shallow end and they dont make you yeah they are going to yell and scream at you to try and motivate you to swim anyway and it is boot camp there is such a hipe there that you just want to prove yourself and he may have been trying to and the drill instructors should not have hit him for any reason but it does happen some people just suck it up and take it like most of you say dude its the marines some of those swimming exercises they make you swim in full gear and your alice pack full of gear and also with a rubber riffle try swimming in the water with your clothes on and heavy boots and gear with a helmet and rubber riffle the riffle alone weighs 7 pounds let alone all the other gear you have to swim in but the thing is all the gear is made so that it helps you float you just have to use what the drill instructors tell you to your advantage if he had drowned its mainly his fault but then again why wasnt there someone there to help him out i know the first time i tried to swim the length of those pools in full gear i sank but i was fished out right after i started sinking im just not sure about the drill instructor hitting him though marine corp boot camp is the hardest thing i have ever done in my life but also the most motivating thing i have ever done in my life even if the drill instructors werent near then pool what about the other few hundred marines that were in the same building you know i just dont get how it even happened
You know, it's too bad. I'm betting you had something good to say there^, but I just can't read it. With no structure at all, I found myself repeating lines, and getting lost. Let me introduce you to the period. CAPITALIZATION for the first word of a new sentance, and the oh so useful comma, like this.
Then there are line breaks to seperate paragraphs. Neat eh?
