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Patriot Act
Wednesday, April 13, 2005 9:07 AM on j-body.org
im doing a speech on civil liberties in the U.S. today. This is for my politics class...

i need peoples opinions on why you think that the Patriot Act may or may not invade the civil liberties of the people who live in the U.S.

please give me your honest opinion, regardless on what side you stand on... thank you very much!





Re: Patriot Act
Wednesday, April 13, 2005 11:17 AM on j-body.org
The original Patriot Act gave a lot of Law Enforcement Agencies (LEA's) a lot more powers in order to procure legal means to find and remove terrorists that have infiltrated the USA, as well as a side benefit of making it exponentially eaiser for LEA's to find and prosecute common american criminals.

The problem is that these powers were unprecedented, and written (intentionally or no) vaguely. The Wiretap laws that have been in effect for 30 some odd years haven't been updated to keep pace with the time, and as such, they've been suspended in the face of the Patriot Act. The problem is that they have broad reconnaisance powers, and that involves the use of Magic Lantern and Carnivore programs that the FBI has, as well as enhanced internal signal monitoring by agencies like the NSA and NSIA.

It's served its purpose, and at this point, the previous laws that were enacted need revamping, the Patriot Act should NOT stand in for the other laws it was meant to temporarily circumvent.

For the last 5 years, it's done well, but even with all these new powers, there has been no greater terrorsit threat... as such, it's no longer necessary. I would advise allowing the Patriot act to expire per its limit, and use the sections that are useful for National LEA's to be narrowly drafted in as part of pre-existing laws.

Thank Goodness PAII didn't make it into law...



Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.


Re: Patriot Act
Wednesday, April 13, 2005 2:30 PM on j-body.org
I am in agreement with GAM. The Patriot Act has served its purpose well. However, it should not take place of the laws that it circumvented. So, I feel it should eventually be withdrawn and the old laws should be re-vamped using the guidelines seen fit by the people from the Patriot Act. Maybe this will be something that will the next Presidential Election's hot topic of debate if we in fact are still in Iraq or if we are in any other country for similar reasons.............


I'll have a sig someday....................
Re: Patriot Act
Wednesday, April 13, 2005 5:50 PM on j-body.org
If you're out of Iraq by the next election, that will mean a lot more americans and iraqis will be dead.

You're not out of Iraq by a damned sight.




Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.


Re: Patriot Act
Sunday, April 17, 2005 6:01 PM on j-body.org
We're not out of Germany or Japan either...60+ years later. The US will have perment bases in Afghanstan and Iraq for years to come. It could be like SA but we have since left there.

As far as the Patriot Act is concerned, look up the facts. Just google it and you will find no cases before the US Supreme court that have been overturned. A few of the statutes have been deemed unconstitutional however. In this day and age, we can't get lax again like we did in the 1990's as far as terrorism go. Oceans can't protect us anymore. We are a free nation, that means letting people in on a regular basis. We need to give law enforcement every tool necessary to help protect US citizens.

We also need to remember that laws get abuse every day. In almost 4 years of the PA, not one case has been overturned in the US Supreme Court.
Re: Patriot Act
Monday, April 18, 2005 6:49 AM on j-body.org
You're not supporting Germany or Japan either is the idea (seems they're your chief economic rivals)... Iraq isn't going to be on it's feet for another 25+ years, that's assuming they train a decent and loyal Military to protect the borders, and a decent and loyal Police force that can protect the interior.

Now, Patriot Act was only meant to be a temporary act and you know that Mrgto, we've gone around on this before. It's meant to give broader search and seizure powers in the furtherance of National Security, and so far, it's done the job, but it's not meant to supplant other laws.

Now, here's the thing that I ask you to do. Find out how many actual terror cells were found in the USA since the passing of the Patriot act. The exact number is 0. HLSA has stated it, FBI has stated it, hell, the NSA and NSIA have had leaked internal memos that describe the dearth of evidence there were other cells in North America.

From all the info that has been culled, the main series of attacks were meant to start in 2000, and end in late 2002. After the failure of the first round of attacks, and the subsequent rolling over of several key suspects, a lot of the plans were de-railled... the people either went back to where they came from, or stayed with no further contact. Of note, the Shoe bomber, Richard Reid, has been kept in protective custody since he was Arrested shortly after February 2002... he had been part of a small cell that would have done several high-visibility, low deathrate attacks. He is suspected to have given up information on the others, but as of yet, they were in Britian, and nothing else has been reported.

My question, because I know you're up on it a lot more than I am at this point, is:
a: how many challenges of the PA were there, and
b: how many of them were in direct relation to terrorist (both domestic and foreign) activities?

I'm not precisely certain, but I highly doubt that the lion's share of those cases heard and submitted had to deal with terrorism.

Here's the other thing, and I know you're going to say checks and balances, but I'm going to say it anyhow, and keep in mind I work for a police force whose scope is farther reaching than the FBI's and has more far-reaching laws at its disposal... There is a limit to how many laws you can give the police and not have it turn into a Police State. Frankly, I have no problems about being asked to comply with the giving of fingerprints, and I have no problem with the giving of DNA for comparison against a sample because, I know the science behind it, I DO NOT agree that Police agencies should be allowed under any circumstances be allowed to retain that information (fingerprint files and images, DNA matter) for future references, because that, frankly is an invasion of privacy. I have no problem with an agency with founded evidence of possible terrorist activities listening in to phone calls of which I may be party to, but, if it just turns up as awrong number, and all of a sudden I'm a suspect in something that patently doesn't involve me, I'm going to get bent out of shape.

Increased powers are nice, and keeping up with technolgy is essential to having security, but there are also issues of privacy and keeping police, and the government at large OUT OF MY HOUSE. You know the term slippery slope? I'm just wondering how much you're going to be wiling to trade away for the illusion of security. Point of fact, Terrorists can still enter the US, pretty much at will (take your pick: Mexico or Canada, however, it's a LOT harder to go through Canada); so the idea that you're any more safe is a fallacy... Giving greater search and seizure powers to the police only makes life less private for people that are law abiding.



Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.


Re: Patriot Act
Monday, April 18, 2005 11:06 AM on j-body.org
Speaking on a broad level as opposed to anything specific written into the Patriot act, any act or law passed by congress that guts the Constitution or lessens the Bill of Rights in any way -- well, I have some issues with that. The Patriot act was flawed in inception and not allowed to be discussed on the floor (if I'm remember the story right). Individual rights are one of the things that was won by war and blood, and some pencil-pushing politicians wanting to infringe on those rights shouldn't be allowed to do so.
Re: Patriot Act
Monday, April 18, 2005 12:02 PM on j-body.org
GAM (The Kilted One) wrote:You're not supporting Germany or Japan either is the idea (seems they're your chief economic rivals)... Iraq isn't going to be on it's feet for another 25+ years, that's assuming they train a decent and loyal Military to protect the borders, and a decent and loyal Police force that can protect the interior.

Now, Patriot Act was only meant to be a temporary act and you know that Mrgto, we've gone around on this before. It's meant to give broader search and seizure powers in the furtherance of National Security, and so far, it's done the job, but it's not meant to supplant other laws.

Now, here's the thing that I ask you to do. Find out how many actual terror cells were found in the USA since the passing of the Patriot act. The exact number is 0. HLSA has stated it, FBI has stated it, hell, the NSA and NSIA have had leaked internal memos that describe the dearth of evidence there were other cells in North America.

From all the info that has been culled, the main series of attacks were meant to start in 2000, and end in late 2002. After the failure of the first round of attacks, and the subsequent rolling over of several key suspects, a lot of the plans were de-railled... the people either went back to where they came from, or stayed with no further contact. Of note, the Shoe bomber, Richard Reid, has been kept in protective custody since he was Arrested shortly after February 2002... he had been part of a small cell that would have done several high-visibility, low deathrate attacks. He is suspected to have given up information on the others, but as of yet, they were in Britian, and nothing else has been reported.

My question, because I know you're up on it a lot more than I am at this point, is:
a: how many challenges of the PA were there, and
b: how many of them were in direct relation to terrorist (both domestic and foreign) activities?

I'm not precisely certain, but I highly doubt that the lion's share of those cases heard and submitted had to deal with terrorism.

Here's the other thing, and I know you're going to say checks and balances, but I'm going to say it anyhow, and keep in mind I work for a police force whose scope is farther reaching than the FBI's and has more far-reaching laws at its disposal... There is a limit to how many laws you can give the police and not have it turn into a Police State. Frankly, I have no problems about being asked to comply with the giving of fingerprints, and I have no problem with the giving of DNA for comparison against a sample because, I know the science behind it, I DO NOT agree that Police agencies should be allowed under any circumstances be allowed to retain that information (fingerprint files and images, DNA matter) for future references, because that, frankly is an invasion of privacy. I have no problem with an agency with founded evidence of possible terrorist activities listening in to phone calls of which I may be party to, but, if it just turns up as awrong number, and all of a sudden I'm a suspect in something that patently doesn't involve me, I'm going to get bent out of shape.

Increased powers are nice, and keeping up with technolgy is essential to having security, but there are also issues of privacy and keeping police, and the government at large OUT OF MY HOUSE. You know the term slippery slope? I'm just wondering how much you're going to be wiling to trade away for the illusion of security. Point of fact, Terrorists can still enter the US, pretty much at will (take your pick: Mexico or Canada, however, it's a LOT harder to go through Canada); so the idea that you're any more safe is a fallacy... Giving greater search and seizure powers to the police only makes life less private for people that are law abiding.


Japan and Germany were up andrunning in 5 years. We are still there. We will be in Iraq for the same time if not longer.

PA hasn't supplanted other laws. It has actually reinforced laws.

Richard Reid has been in a federal prison since 2003.
http://archives.cnn.com/2002/LAW/10/04/reid.guilty.plea/


There have been plenty of challenges to the PA. I believe two federal judges threw out two provisions of it. I don't know why they were recinded.


I would suggest to those that haven't actually READ the PA, to do so. It will actually shed a lot of light on what can and can't be done and there is a federal check and balance on it. It's unfortunate that the leftist web sites don't tell you the facts of it. But realize this, in almost 5 years, no cases have been overturned by either a federal or US supreme court because someone was convicted using a unconstitutional provision of the PA.
Re: Patriot Act
Monday, April 18, 2005 5:03 PM on j-body.org
The US is not in Japan or Germany for any other reason that strategic presence.

And, I believe that PA should be allowed to pass, provided it's an imeptice to change pre-existing laws. As well, PAII would have been egregious...




Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.


Re: Patriot Act
Tuesday, April 19, 2005 6:17 AM on j-body.org
The Patroit Act has been used for far more than national security which was it's inteded purpose. If you wonder how the RIAA is able to find out who you are(so they may sue you etc) while only knowing your IP adress at the time - the Patroit Act is the tool they need to get any info from your Internet Service Provider that they need. Of course their are numerous other cases of it being misused, it's not hard to find if you look. Just because nothing has been overturned(at least to my knowledge) doesn't mean it hasn't been, or couldn't be, used improperly.

In it's defense though, anything with any power behind it, can(and almost certainly will) be misused/abused by someone. The same could be said of any freedom as well. And once (you name it - freedom, law, drug, symbol, anything powerful) is misused, as anything can be, there will be people there who try to get rid of/ban/repeal/etc whatever because of the harm it could do, ignoring the good it could do. Fact is, anything that could be used for some great good could also be used for some terrible purpose.

nuclear power
abundant safe(yes safe) energy/weapons of mass destruction

internet
infinite exchange of useful information/identity theft, kiddy porn, etc etc

pheudoephedrine(sp?)
cold symptom relief/crystal methanphetemine(sp?)

freedom of speech
(obvious)/potentially offensive or harmful language or content etc

gasoline
energy source/huffing to get high and kill your brain, arson, etc

cow poop
agricultural use/bomb material(aka Oklhoma City Bombing)

tire iron
automotive uses/blugen to death someone who flipped you off during rush hour traffic

religion
(obvious)/control through manipulation of the real message, fanatics who misinterpret, or are ignorant of, the real message

Adult Swim(late night on Cartoon Network)
Family Guy/Super Milk Chan

You get the point.




I've never heard of this "part throttle" before. Does it just bolt on?
Re: Patriot Act
Tuesday, April 19, 2005 10:32 AM on j-body.org
The Patriot Act is a terrible thing, and I'm disheartned to know that so many of you would surrender some of your rights because someone told you it's for your own safety.

Let's be fair about this, it's been VERY clear the law hasn't identified ANY sleeper or active extremecist cells in this country.

But it has been used for abuse...

Alleged abuses under the PATRIOT Act

* In Las Vegas, police used the PATRIOT Act to subpoena two stockbrokers for evidence in a public official corruption case against a strip club owner (who ultimately pled guilty). Supporters of the PATRIOT Act point out that Section 314 of the act states it can be applied to activities "that may involve terrorist acts OR money-laundering activities". Accordingly, the federal investigators' actions did not exceed the authority of the PATRIOT Act. [8] (http://yconservatives.com/Carmack-62.html)

* The FBI ordered a handful of journalists that had written about computer hacker Adrian Lamo to turn over their notes and other information under the auspices of the PATRIOT Act. Supporters of the PATRIOT Act point out that journalists -- like all other citizens -- are not privileged from being subjected to subpoenas when they possess information relevant to a criminal investigation.[9] (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2003/09/29/fbi_bypasses_first_amendment/)

* Beyond the above examples, in September 2003, the New York Times reported that a study by Congress showed hundreds of cases where the PATRIOT Act was used to investigate non-terrorist crimes. [10] (http://www.jointogether.org/sa/news/summaries/reader/0,1854,567051,00.html). Supporters of the PATRIOT Act point out that the Act is not limited to "terrorist crimes," and further that the New York Times report referred to above misconstrued the nature of many of the investigations conducted under the PATRIOT Act.

* In April 2003, Sami Omar Al-Hussayen was arrested on charges of supporting terrorism by maintaining several web sites that supported violent activities. [11] (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A13072-2004Apr14.html) This type of "guilt by association" was resurrected by the 1996 "anti-terrorism" act signed by President Clinton, but was further expanded under the PATRIOT Act. Supporters of the PATRIOT Act point out that prosecutors did not try Mr. Al-Hussayen because of his association with the website, but because he actively participated in raising money for terrorist organizations, recruiting terrorists, and disseminating inflammatory rhetoric via his website. Prosecutors said the sites included religious edicts justifying suicide bombings and an invitation to contribute financially to the militant Palestinian organization Hamas.

* In May 2004, the FBI cordoned off the entire block of a University at Buffalo associate art professor's house, impounding his computers, manuscripts, books, equipment for further analysis and The Buffalo Health Department temporarily condemned the house as a health risk after suspicious vials and bacterial cultures were discovered at his home. The professor, whose art involves the use of biology equipment as part of a project educating the public about the politics of biotechnology was charged with violations under the Section 175 of the US Biological Weapons Anti-Terrorism Act which was expanded by the USA PATRIOT Act. [12] (http://www.caedefensefund.org/) [13] (http://www.newfarm.org/news/0604/061104/bio_artist.shtml) Supporters of the PATRIOT Act point out that the investigation of Mr. Kurtz began after he called 911 to report that his 45-year-old wife had died overnight. At that point, police noticed a mobile DNA extraction laboratory and petri dishes containing E. coli bacteria in his home. Mr. Kurtz contended that the biological agents were being used in his latest art project, but police felt compelled to investigate further. Moreover, Mr. Kurtz was not charged with a violation of the PATRIOT Act or the Biological Weapons Anti-Terrorism Act.

* The ACLU was prevented from releasing the text of its countersuit challenging aspects of the PATRIOT Act because the government claimed it would violate secrecy provisions of the act. [14] (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A51423-2004Apr28.html) Supporters of the PATRIOT Act point out that the ACLU's constitutional challenge was disclosed, and only the details of an ongoing federal investigation were redacted. Moreover, the secrecy provisions of the PATRIOT Act are subject to both judicial and congressional oversight.

* The maintainer of a TV-show fan website was charged with copyright infringement after the MPAA directed the FBI to obtain records from the site's Internet service provider about the site under the USA PATRIOT Act [15] (http://www.sg1archive.com/nightmare.shtml) [16] (http://yro.slashdot.org/yro/04/07/27/129219.shtml?tid=153&tid=214&tid=129) Supporters of the PATRIOT Act point out that McGaughey was charged with copyright violations and computer fraud, and that the PATRIOT Act amended the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act. Accordingly, the use of the PATRIOT Act was entirely appropriate.

* Sherman Austin, anarchist and webmaster of Raise the Fist, plead guilty to violating 18 U.S.C. 842(p)[17] (http://assembler.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode18/usc_sec_18_00000842----000-.html), a 1997 "anti-terrorism" statute authored by California Democratic Senator Dianne Feinstein[18] (http://feinstein.senate.gov/03Releases/r-bombmaking3.htm) that prohibits the distribution of bombmaking information knowing or intending that the information will be used in a violent federal crime. Many wrongly assume this case was investigated or prosecuted using the PATRIOT Act.

* FBI agents used the powers in Section 213 (sneak and peak) to secretly search the home of Brandon Mayfield who was wrongly jailed for two weeks on suspicion of involvement in the Madrid train bombings. Agents seized three hard drives, 10 DNA samples preserved on cotton swabs and took 335 photos of personal items. Mayfield has filed a lawsuit against the U.S. government, contending that his rights were violated by his arrest and by the investigation against him. He also contends the Patriot Act is unconstitutional. [19]


---



Re: Patriot Act
Tuesday, April 19, 2005 10:48 AM on j-body.org
^^^

so who want "Bill of Rights" toilet paper?

Really, i look at it like this--you can limit freedom for the illusion of security, or you can accet that you'll never be secure and have more freedom.

i choose the latter.


Goodbye Callisto & Skađi, Hello Ishara:
2022 Kia Stinger GT2 AWD
The only thing every single person from every single walk of life on earth can truly say
they have in common is that their country is run by a bunch of fargin iceholes.
Re: Patriot Act
Tuesday, April 19, 2005 10:56 AM on j-body.org
AUGSTIN, IF YOU ARE GOING TO POST SOMETHING AT LEAST GIVE US THE LINK TO WHERE IT CAME FROM.

Here is a good article from someone that has had to use the PA.

U.S. Department of Justice
Michael J. Sullivan
United States Attorney
District of Massachusetts
Main Reception: (617) 748-3100

John Joseph Moakley
United States Courthouse
1 Courthouse Way
Suite 9200
Boston, Massachusetts 02210



May 28, 2004
Board of Selectmen
Town of Hudson
78 Main Street
Hudson, MA 01749

"We hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator
with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness--That
to secure these Rights, Governments are instituted among Men…”
(Declaration of Independence, 1776)

Dear Selectmen:

The Declaration of Independence ensures that the first responsibility of government is to preserve the lives and liberty of the people. As public servants, we have dedicated our lives to this responsibility. Our Forefathers also recognized that, to secure these rights, "governments are instituted among men."

Following the tragic events of September 11th, President George W. Bush, and Attorney General John Ashcroft vowed to do everything within the law to prevent additional terrorist attacks. The Department of Justice worked with local, state and federal partners to determine what tools were needed to preserve life and liberty in each of your communities.

Every sector of law enforcement was also asked to assist the federal government in rooting out networks of terror. Improving communication, sharing of information and building infrastructures to respond to disaster, are just a few of the ways cities and towns, across the Commonwealth, responded.

One of the most significant tools the Justice Department has used to assist in making our communities safer, and to provide the security that ensures liberty, has been the USA PATRIOT Act. Passed with wide bipartisan support by Congress, the PATRIOT Act has aided in preventing additional attacks on U.S. soil.

In fact, the Bill passed 98 to 1 in the United States Senate and by a five to one margin (357 to 66) in the United States House of Representatives.

As you are well aware, the PATRIOT Act does three things:

1. It closes gaping holes in our ability to investigate terrorists.
2. It updates our anti?terrorism laws to meet the challenges of new technology, and new threats.
3. It allows us to utilize a coordinated and integrated strategy for information sharing and fighting terrorism.

Essentially the PATRIOT Act gives investigators the ability to fight terror, using many of the court-approved tools that have been used successfully for many years in drug, fraud, and organized crime cases. I am confident that most Americans expect that these law enforcement tools are also available to protect lives and liberties from terrorists.

New York Post Columnist Rich Lowry explained it best, "Many of the new powers under the act --such as 'the roving wiretap,’ which allows the government to continue monitoring a target who switches phones -- aren't really new. They give counterterrorism investigators the same powers investigators already have in mob cases."

How has the PATRIOT Act helped in the war against terror?

- To date, 163 individuals have been convicted or have pled guilty in the United States, including shoe-bomber Richard Reid;
- More than 3,000 operatives worldwide have been incapacitated;
- Four terrorist cells in Buffalo, Detroit, Seattle, and Portland (Oregon), have been broken up
- We have deported more than 5 15 individuals with links to the September 11th investigation;
- Over 19,000 subpoenas and search warrants have been issued;
- We have frozen $133 million in assets around the world;
- Hundreds of suspected terrorists have been identified and tracked throughout the United States.

Nearly three years have passed since the horrific events of September 11th. With the passage of time, many misconceptions and myths have emerged about the intention, and the content of the PATRIOT Act. As public servants, I believe it is incumbent upon us to educate our constituencies about the PATRIOT Act and dispel the myths and inaccuracies about it's content and its authority. In many instances, some of the PATRIOT Act's harshest critics, have never even read the entire Act. Materials and representations used by opponents of the Act, make frightening claims that suggest the Act is a virtual roll back of the First Amendment. Indeed, no law in recent history has inspired such spirited opposition as the Act. Debate on this or any law is healthy; indeed, informed debate is a cornerstone of American democracy. But misinformed debate neither enlightens nor teaches. Much of what has been said about the Act is simply not true.

One provision that opponents have criticized is so-called "delayed notice" search warrants. Delayed notice of search warrant is neither new nor unique. For decades, the U.S. Supreme Court and other courts have found these search warrants constitutional and appropriate in cases involving drug dealing and organized crime. Delayed notice of search warrant is critical in the terrorism fight. Without the ability to do delayed notice search warrants many investigations would suffer and criminals would escape.

Another provision that has caused some concern is the business records provision, under Section 215, which opponents claim gives law enforcement the right to examine our reading habits at a library. This is once again a misleading claim intended to frighten law abiding citizens. Library records have long been obtainable pursuant to Grand Jury subpoenas in routine criminal investigations. In fact, library records obtained by subpoena or provided voluntarily wore an important part of the years-long investigation into the murderous activities of the Unibomber. The Act now allows terror investigators to obtain court orders for similar records in international terrorism cases, issued by judges sitting in a specialized court in Washington. That court must find that the requested records are relevant in obtaining foreign intelligence information against someone other than a United States citizen or to protect against terrorism or spying. The Act expressly forbids investigation solely based on First Amendment activities.

The ACLU falsely claims that section 218 "authorizes unconstitutional activity -- searches and wiretaps in non-emergency circumstances..." The truth is, the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court of Review held that Section 219 is constitutional in its entirety "because the surveillances it authorizes are, reasonable." Section 218 is designed to allow the sharing of information among government agencies to protect against terrorist activity. Prior to the passage of the PATRIOT Act, despite the critical need to get intelligence information into the hands of appropriate government personnel, such information sharing among national security officials and criminal investigators was illegal. Before the USA PATRIOT Act, a perceived metaphorical "wall" often inhibited vital information sharing and coordination. Intelligence investigators were concerned about sharing information with, and seeking advice from, law enforcement investigators and prosecutors. Section 218 expressly permits the full coordination between intelligence and law enforcement that is vital to protecting the nation's security.

I believe it is vital that citizens get accurate information and decide on the facts for themselves. Simply put, we need the time?tested tools provided in the Act to do our most important job — protecting the American people by discovering and preventing acts of terrorism before they occur.

I strongly encourage each of you to visit www.lifeandliberty.gov and share the information with your communities. The website, among other things, contains the text of the Act, and discusses key points that address the common misconceptions.

Of the 351 cities and towns across the Commonwealth, only 22 have passed resolutions against the PATRIOT Act. Most, if not all of these 22 communities did not have the benefit of a full understanding of the checks and balances, limitations and vital security provisions of the Art. There is work that still needs to be done to educate the general public about the true content and goal of the Act.

Ground Zero, The Pentagon and a field in Shanksville, Pennsylvania - all reminders that our first responsibility as public servants, is to preserve the lives and liberty of the people.

Our job in the war against terror is far from finished. We need to utilize the tools Congress, and the president of the United States gave us, including the PATRIOT Act, to protect the American people.

In a speech last summer, Attorney General Ashcroft said it best, "Our final tribute to the dead of September 11th must be to fulfill our responsibility to defend the living... to finish the work. Our greatest memorial to those who have passed must be to protect the lives and liberties of those yet to come."

Chief Judge Michael B. Mukasey of the U.S. District Court, Southern District of New York, concluded a recent speech entitled "The Spirit of Liberty" by referencing historian Walter Berns' perspective of the Constitution, "that the government it establishes is entitled, at least in the first instance, to receive from its citizens the benefit of the doubt. If we keep that in mind, then the spirit of liberty will be the spirit which, if it is not too sure that it is right, is at least sure enough to keep itself--and us--alive." I have taken the liberty of enclosing a copy of Judge Mukasey's remarks which were recently printed in the Wall Street Journal.

The bottom line is that preventing terrorism is hard work - but it is the calling of our time. We need the updated and common sense tools the Act provides to get this job done. I am confident that, armed with the facts, the citizens across the country will agree that we, as a nation, need these tools. Thanks to you and the tools authorized by Congress and lawfully used by your government, we are preserving lives, liberty, and the rule of law.

If you would like further detailed information pertaining to the PATRIOT Act please do not hesitate to contact my Executive Assistant Mary Connors at (617) 748?3350.

Sincerely,

MICHAEL J. SULLIVAN
United States Attorney


http://www.bordc.org/usatty.htm
Re: Patriot Act
Tuesday, April 19, 2005 11:00 AM on j-body.org
mrgto: the links are in there... they're just not highlighted.



Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.


Re: Patriot Act
Tuesday, April 19, 2005 11:02 AM on j-body.org
GAM (The Kilted One) wrote:mrgto: the links are in there... they're just not highlighted.
\

You can tell he copied and pasted it from another site. I want to which site it came from.
Re: Patriot Act
Tuesday, April 19, 2005 11:05 AM on j-body.org
Here, I'll even clean it up for you.

BTW, Reid was imprisoned and has not seen the light of day since February 2002... The day he tried to do the hot foot.. There's a reason he's not slated to die.



AGuSTiN wrote:The Patriot Act is a terrible thing, and I'm disheartned to know that so many of you would surrender some of your rights because someone told you it's for your own safety.

Let's be fair about this, it's been VERY clear the law hasn't identified ANY sleeper or active extremecist cells in this country.

But it has been used for abuse...

Alleged abuses under the PATRIOT Act

* In Las Vegas, police used the PATRIOT Act to subpoena two stockbrokers for evidence in a public official corruption case against a strip club owner (who ultimately pled guilty). Supporters of the PATRIOT Act point out that Section 314 of the act states it can be applied to activities "that may involve terrorist acts OR money-laundering activities". Accordingly, the federal investigators' actions did not exceed the authority of the PATRIOT Act. [8] ( http://yconservatives.com/Carmack-62.html )

* The FBI ordered a handful of journalists that had written about computer hacker Adrian Lamo to turn over their notes and other information under the auspices of the PATRIOT Act. Supporters of the PATRIOT Act point out that journalists -- like all other citizens -- are not privileged from being subjected to subpoenas when they possess information relevant to a criminal investigation.[9] ( http://www.theregister.co.uk/2003/09/29/fbi_bypasses_first_amendment/ )

* Beyond the above examples, in September 2003, the New York Times reported that a study by Congress showed hundreds of cases where the PATRIOT Act was used to investigate non-terrorist crimes. [10] ( http://www.jointogether.org/sa/news/summaries/reader/0,1854,567051,00.html ). Supporters of the PATRIOT Act point out that the Act is not limited to "terrorist crimes," and further that the New York Times report referred to above misconstrued the nature of many of the investigations conducted under the PATRIOT Act.

* In April 2003, Sami Omar Al-Hussayen was arrested on charges of supporting terrorism by maintaining several web sites that supported violent activities. [11] ( http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A13072-2004Apr14.html ) This type of "guilt by association" was resurrected by the 1996 "anti-terrorism" act signed by President Clinton, but was further expanded under the PATRIOT Act. Supporters of the PATRIOT Act point out that prosecutors did not try Mr. Al-Hussayen because of his association with the website, but because he actively participated in raising money for terrorist organizations, recruiting terrorists, and disseminating inflammatory rhetoric via his website. Prosecutors said the sites included religious edicts justifying suicide bombings and an invitation to contribute financially to the militant Palestinian organization Hamas.

* In May 2004, the FBI cordoned off the entire block of a University at Buffalo associate art professor's house, impounding his computers, manuscripts, books, equipment for further analysis and The Buffalo Health Department temporarily condemned the house as a health risk after suspicious vials and bacterial cultures were discovered at his home. The professor, whose art involves the use of biology equipment as part of a project educating the public about the politics of biotechnology was charged with violations under the Section 175 of the US Biological Weapons Anti-Terrorism Act which was expanded by the USA PATRIOT Act. [12] ( http://www.caedefensefund.org/ ) [13]
( http://www.newfarm.org/news/0604/061104/bio_artist.shtml ) Supporters of the PATRIOT Act point out that the investigation of Mr. Kurtz began after he called 911 to report that his 45-year-old wife had died overnight. At that point, police noticed a mobile DNA extraction laboratory and petri dishes containing E. coli bacteria in his home. Mr. Kurtz contended that the biological agents were being used in his latest art project, but police felt compelled to investigate further. Moreover, Mr. Kurtz was not charged with a violation of the PATRIOT Act or the Biological Weapons Anti-Terrorism Act.

* The ACLU was prevented from releasing the text of its countersuit challenging aspects of the PATRIOT Act because the government claimed it would violate secrecy provisions of the act. [14] ( http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A51423-2004Apr28.html ) Supporters of the PATRIOT Act point out that the ACLU's constitutional challenge was disclosed, and only the details of an ongoing federal investigation were redacted. Moreover, the secrecy provisions of the PATRIOT Act are subject to both judicial and congressional oversight.

* The maintainer of a TV-show fan website was charged with copyright infringement after the MPAA directed the FBI to obtain records from the site's Internet service provider about the site under the USA PATRIOT Act [15] ( http://www.sg1archive.com/nightmare.shtml ) [16] ( http://yro.slashdot.org/yro/04/07/27/129219.shtml?tid=153&tid=214&tid=129 ) Supporters of the PATRIOT Act point out that McGaughey was charged with copyright violations and computer fraud, and that the PATRIOT Act amended the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act. Accordingly, the use of the PATRIOT Act was entirely appropriate.

* Sherman Austin, anarchist and webmaster of Raise the Fist, plead guilty to violating 18 U.S.C. 842(p)[17] ( http://assembler.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode18/usc_sec_18_00000842----000-.html ), a 1997 "anti-terrorism" statute authored by California Democratic Senator Dianne Feinstein[18] ( http://feinstein.senate.gov/03Releases/r-bombmaking3.htm ) that prohibits the distribution of bombmaking information knowing or intending that the information will be used in a violent federal crime. Many wrongly assume this case was investigated or prosecuted using the PATRIOT Act.

* FBI agents used the powers in Section 213 (sneak and peak) to secretly search the home of Brandon Mayfield who was wrongly jailed for two weeks on suspicion of involvement in the Madrid train bombings. Agents seized three hard drives, 10 DNA samples preserved on cotton swabs and took 335 photos of personal items. Mayfield has filed a lawsuit against the U.S. government, contending that his rights were violated by his arrest and by the investigation against him. He also contends the Patriot Act is unconstitutional. [19]



Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.


Re: Patriot Act
Tuesday, April 19, 2005 11:09 AM on j-body.org
Again, I know there are links under the paragraphs, so you are saying he wrote all the paragraphs? Sorry, I don't think so. It was probably posted on all one site then he copied and pasted it.

If I am wrong, then I am wrong but I don't buy it.

And a FYI about the first story in Las Vegas, the guy plead to RICO violations. If any info was obtained illegally via the PA, any idiot attorney could have argued that it was.


How many of those cases have gone before federal appeals courts? And more importantly, how many have been turned over? See, when a case here in the US is turned OVER, that is a statement from the court saying something in the case was deemed unconstitutional.
Re: Patriot Act
Tuesday, April 19, 2005 11:20 AM on j-body.org
Mr GTO,

Here is the source of the links
Wikipedia

That article you posted is terrible. It goes into great detail to point out some good provisions while glancing over and even mischaracterizing the bad. Some quick examples...


- To date, 163 individuals have been convicted or have pled guilty in the United States, including shoe-bomber Richard Reid;
(......)
- Over 19,000 subpoenas and search warrants have been issued;


I know I'm hardly the only one with a problem with the ratio presented above.



In many instances, some of the PATRIOT Act's harshest critics, have never even read the entire Act.

This is a thinly veiled attempted to declare opponents of the Patriot Act as ignorant.



Library records have long been obtainable pursuant to Grand Jury subpoenas in routine criminal investigations. In fact, library records obtained by subpoena or provided voluntarily wore an important part of the years-long investigation into the murderous activities of the Unibomber. The Act now allows terror investigators to obtain court orders for similar records in international terrorism cases, issued by judges sitting in a specialized court in Washington.

When he says specialized he really means "secret". Secret courts allowing law enforcement to obtain your library records and preventing the library from notifying you about it. But the Patriot Act is not specific to library records, it's actually written "business records".

What proponents will often do is talk about the protections in the Patriot Act against abuse, but often will not mention how it's already been abused repeatedly.


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Re: Patriot Act
Tuesday, April 19, 2005 11:22 AM on j-body.org
mrgto wrote:How many of those cases have gone before federal appeals courts? And more importantly, how many have been turned over? See, when a case here in the US is turned OVER, that is a statement from the court saying something in the case was deemed unconstitutional.


I'm not actually sure what you're saying, but two provisions in the Patriot Act have already been declared unconstitutional.


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Re: Patriot Act
Tuesday, April 19, 2005 11:36 AM on j-body.org
On the Wikipedia page, there is an excellent link of an ACLU debate between Colorado's Republican Governor and Howard Dean. Suggested viewing if you take this topic seriously. (requires RealPlayer).


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Re: Patriot Act
Tuesday, April 19, 2005 11:38 AM on j-body.org
AGuSTiN wrote:
mrgto wrote:How many of those cases have gone before federal appeals courts? And more importantly, how many have been turned over? See, when a case here in the US is turned OVER, that is a statement from the court saying something in the case was deemed unconstitutional.


I'm not actually sure what you're saying, but two provisions in the Patriot Act have already been declared unconstitutional.



I know two provisions have been, but they have been based on cases.


Listen, rights are abused every day. that is why we have the courts. Nobody ever said that the PA wouldn't be used to invade the privacy of innocent individuals, but people act like this is the end of all rights. It isn't. Go to a library and look up SC cases that deal with privacy issues. It happens EVERY DAMN DAY with laws other than the PA.

Re: Patriot Act
Tuesday, April 19, 2005 11:46 AM on j-body.org
The difference is that the Patriot Act actually authorizes many things that have been traditionally called abuses. Such as detaining people indefinitely, denying them due process, without letting them know why they're even in jail.

And just because other laws get abused all the time doesn't make me think "Oh OK that's right so it's OK then." I mean, is that what you expect me to think? Other laws will screw me so what's one more?


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Re: Patriot Act
Tuesday, April 19, 2005 11:50 AM on j-body.org
AGuSTiN wrote:The difference is that the Patriot Act actually authorizes many things that have been traditionally called abuses. Such as detaining people indefinitely, denying them due process, without letting them know why they're even in jail.

And just because other laws get abused all the time doesn't make me think "Oh OK that's right so it's OK then." I mean, is that what you expect me to think? Other laws will screw me so what's one more?



Give me an example of someone(by name) who has been held indefinatly via a provision(State it) from the Patriot Act.


Well, then don't bitch if they take it away then the FBI can't investigate someone because they don't have enough evidence to get a search warrant the normal ways because some idiot lefty judge says so. THEN they go on to commit terrorist acts.

Have you actually ever sat down to read the patriot act?
Re: Patriot Act
Tuesday, April 19, 2005 12:10 PM on j-body.org
mrgto wrote:
AGuSTiN wrote:The difference is that the Patriot Act actually authorizes many things that have been traditionally called abuses. Such as detaining people indefinitely, denying them due process, without letting them know why they're even in jail.

And just because other laws get abused all the time doesn't make me think "Oh OK that's right so it's OK then." I mean, is that what you expect me to think? Other laws will screw me so what's one more?



Give me an example of someone(by name) who has been held indefinatly via a provision(State it) from the Patriot Act.


Well, then don't bitch if they take it away then the FBI can't investigate someone because they don't have enough evidence to get a search warrant the normal ways because some idiot lefty judge says so. THEN they go on to commit terrorist acts.

Have you actually ever sat down to read the patriot act?


First of all, what the hell is wrong with you?

Now, back onto the topic...

Name? Jose Padilla. Subsequently...

December 2003 - Padilla wins a court victory. The court orders that Padilla, who has been held since June of 2002 on his suspected connection to a "dirty bomb, be charged, declared a material witness or released within thirty days".

There is plenty of documentation about American citizens of foreign origin being held and interrogated on the flimsiest of intelligence. I suggest you, MrGTO, spend some time researching and not repeatedly asking me to educate you myself.

Google is your friend.


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Re: Patriot Act
Tuesday, April 19, 2005 2:23 PM on j-body.org
WHICH PROVISION under the Patriot Act is Padilla being held?

Again, HAVE YOU READ THE PATRIOT ACT?
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