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Re: Cost of war in Iraq
Friday, April 08, 2005 5:54 PM on j-body.org
Coming from this Canadian.... your president is a dumbass.






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Re: Cost of war in Iraq
Friday, April 08, 2005 7:39 PM on j-body.org
I would be willing to die for millions if I was called upon to do so. I find it very humerous that people keep blaming Bush for calling it on a WMD war. He didnt go to war for that. The Senate did. Get over that. Bush put in a proposal saying that the CIA found significant evidence of WMD's. The CIA brought this evidance to the senate. The senate voted that we should go to war. So Bush was told by his so called "intelligence" that there was WMD's. If you led a country and one of you biggest enemies who claimed to have no WMD's was found to have WMD's would you get rid of them. Keep in mind from what the intelligence told Bush, there WAS WMD's. Not there might be, according to intelligence "SADAM HAS WMD's". Ifreally do find it sad that people must related everything bad that someone else does to our president. God if there was a republican that killed someone in wyoming, the whole country would blame it on Bush. That is exactly the same relation that Bush had with actually finding evidence of WMD's. He wasnt even involved. He simply sent them and said please find out if they have them or not, Yah or Nah. They said Yah, we have war.

After you get into the war then a year and a half later you find out that they were either lying to you or they didnt reasearch enough. Do you leave a nation scrapping form themselves? No, you do what any humanitarian would do and help repel takeover from terrorists and other problems. Thats what is going on. Its sad that you all relate oil to the reason Bush went in to war. At least admit you have no F-in clue what EXACTLY is going on. If you still think you absolutely know what Bush is thinking at every moment and why he does everything, you must to have psychic powers.
Re: Cost of war in Iraq
Friday, April 08, 2005 11:00 PM on j-body.org
solaris * wrote:
theL61 wrote:
ok we knew troop #'s that was never the problem

Iraqis never killed Americans but have killed hundreds of thousands of other in ethnic cleansing, cmon


So, using your logic, every white boy american can and will be be held accountable for the KKK's actions...

Because Iraqis never commited ethnic cleansing. Saddam committed ethnic cleansing - after obtaining permission by the US. At the time, the Kurds were more likely to align with Iran to help overthrow Saddam. That's why Saddam wiped them out and Regean didn't care.

You seem to forget how many Iraqis had been wiped out by Saddam at a time when amerikkka fully supported & supplied him. The irony of it all is that the Iraqis are the ones that are being held accountable (by americans) for american actions.

/stop watching fox news, asshat.


uhm yeah you cant keep a debate respectible wtf??
anyway saddam had ordered the killings of thousands
he was their leader so yeah took him out

if Bush led the kkk and authorized ethinic clensing woulndt you hope that someone stopped him?
thats what i thought?



Re: Cost of war in Iraq
Friday, April 08, 2005 11:02 PM on j-body.org
and yeah
Saddam didn't stop there it kept going
he didn't have our support to kill them
he had out weapons to fight Iran
the Kurds at the time were just in an unfortunate position

sorry bout the misspelling is previous post... forgot to hit spell check



Re: Cost of war in Iraq
Saturday, April 09, 2005 12:32 PM on j-body.org
2 things, rollin:

1) Called on don't enter into it...if you think this was is so great, you should be over there without being drafted...pure and simple.

2) He DIDN'T admit to it until the commission has so much evidence against him that he had no choice...

This war, like Vietnam, should have never happened...and if bush had the pair of brass balls he claimed to have had, he would have accepted Saddam's proposal of a duel, havi it on some remote atoll, put the thing on pay-per-view, and use the funds to balance the budget.

Plus, it would get rid of two opressive fascists


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Re: Cost of war in Iraq
Saturday, April 09, 2005 7:17 PM on j-body.org
Rollinredcav, the Senate ABSOLUTELY DID NOT vote to go to war. They voted to give Bush the ability to go to war. Bush is the sole reason we went to war, period. That's what the whole idea of commander in chief is. As for oil? Come on, we didn't even defend stockpiles of weapons, but we sure defended the oil reserves.

Bush is an idiot and everyone who voted for him is as well... Yes, I just called 50million people idiots. I always thank people who leave their W04 stickers on their cars... They label themselves for me.



Re: Cost of war in Iraq
Saturday, April 09, 2005 8:08 PM on j-body.org
RRC:

There were NO AL-QUEDA AGENTS IN IRAQ BEFORE THE INVASION. There had been people there to talk with Saddam, but they went home with empty hands... Wanna know why?

Simply put: Saddam was a power hungry maniac. We know that from the invasion of Kuwait, and how he attained power in the first place. Knowing this, do you think for a moment that he would honestly allow a group of foreigners to come into HIS country, and start allowing them to start taking HIS people and training them to possibly overthrow HIM?

If you can say yes, give your head a shake and break out the republican party Peril Sensitive Sunglasses and affix to your head. (Google it.)

L61:

Saddam Hussein, Augusto Pinochet, Shah of Iran... Hey, there's a trifecta of US sponsored dictators. Hussein Killed kurds, Pinochet killed his own chileans, and Shah was installed back into power by US MARINES that staged a coup and killed the duly ELECTED president of Iran... After the Shi'ite uprising you got the Ayatollah Khomeni. Pinochet was only arrested after he travelled to the UK for heart surgery... his regime didn't fall for 4 years after he was arrested.. and the discovery of mass graves to the tune of 400,000+. Hell, if you want to get technical, Pol Pot was still alive at the time of GHW Bush.. why not ever go after that guy?

The war wasn't about human rights, it wasn't about doing the right thing, it wasn't about terrorism, and it patently was NOT about WMD's... it was about the same thing that every war has been about since time immemorial: Power and money.

The sooner you recognise that and drop the illusion of righteousness, you'll be better armed to critique your president's actions.

*solaris:

Iraq had posession of Biological/Chemical agents that were made in the USA. After the Kurds were gassed, the US didn't say a word while the rest of the world was condemning Iraq. I guess a foil to Iran was preferable, and a few hundred thousand bodies are collateral damage to such a worthwhile partnership.




Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.


Re: Cost of war in Iraq
Saturday, April 09, 2005 11:10 PM on j-body.org
[quote=Keeper of the Light™]2 things, rollin:

1) Called on don't enter into it...if you think this was is so great, you should be over there without being drafted...pure and simple.

2) He DIDN'T admit to it until the commission has so much evidence against him that he had no choice...

This war, like Vietnam, should have never happened...and if bush had the pair of brass balls he claimed to have had, he would have accepted Saddam's proposal of a duel, havi it on some remote atoll, put the thing on pay-per-view, and use the funds to balance the budget.

Plus, it would get rid of two opressive fascists

First off Keeper, there is a difference between would and want. If I ever said I want to go fight then please refer to where I said so. I would fight if my life was needed to win the war. Second, you can just go fight. There is no draft, I would have to go through boot camp, whatever training I chose to do, then hope to god they put me in Iraq. I have two friends who finished marine boot camp last year who are literaly beggin to be shipped out to Iraq, they havent even been called up yet. Logic tells me not to stop everything I am doing now to enter boot camp, which will require another long wait until they can even ship you to boot, PT training before shippment. I would fight and die if I needed to, I never said it was my dream to fight in Iraq. You can strongly support somthing yet not be involved. Or am I wrong again?

My US government professor had shown us statistics last semester regarding the amount of support of the NAM war. During the time it was actually going on there was little support of the war among the age groups who were actually affected directly (by the draft). The same question was asked to that group of people somtime in the late 90 and over 50% of the anti-NAM people now support the NAM war. I am not listing this to change any of your oppinions, all I am saying is that after seeing a statistic like that, referencing NAM will not sway me in the slightest.

bliZsham- thank man, you just made yourself look like an idiot. It is people like you who make me hate your views and look down on them and the people who have them. And you wonder why the county seems divided. The others who are posting replies to me are not using idiotic remarks, at least they are referencing logical factors, which leads to discussion, not hatred.

Also, if your telling me that the senate had no idea that Bush was going to actually use the power to go to war, your clueless. Obviously if Bush is asking for approval to go to war, they are esentially voting for or against the war, there is no way around that. It was a simple vote for war or no war, whether it makes you happy or not.

About the gaurding the oil part, and not the weapons, think about it, its a completely logical purpose. Where does most of the whole worlds oil come from? You guessed it. So do we sit there and let them burn off as much oil as they can and cause much more of an oil crisis and affect the whole world. Well of course some democrats would because they dont want us driving anyway (thats not meant as an insult to anyone). Yet in the middle of a battle they are suppose to keep complete tabs on some weapons that sadams troops already have anyway. Plus there has never been any proof that any weapons were actually stolen. It was first reported by a liberal reporter that he saw weapons and then they were gone. Conveniently planned just before the election, hmmm, interesting.

GAM- I agree on the first part. Sadam is power crazy, and he abused his power. He would do anything to pull somone into a conflict with him. He did whatever he could to pull us into this. No he probably didnt expect a full scale invasion; however, I guarantee he was really happy by not allowing U.N. inspectors into his "seceret" compounds. This is where much of the false intelligence came from, not from Bush, rather inspectors who "assumed".

Now please understand me when I am saying this. I would not agree with the war had there been no intelligence saying that there was WMD's. When the info came out negative after going in there no one can point a finger at one single person. There is an endless amount of people that the false info could have gone through before it even got to Bush. We already were in there, took out the totalitarian leader, and many of his troops. At that point is when it was obvious that intelligence was false and assumed by inspectors. Do people honestly think that we can just pull all troops out at that point, when there are still many of sadams men attempting to reinstate his regime? I doubt it, that would be like leaving a bunch of children alone with loaded guns, it would be chaos. We did the right thing by admitting that we didnt find anything off of intelligence reports, but not giving up on our promise to the Iraqi citizens.

Now GAM I dont know much about your last few paragraphs but I will gladly research the topics. I cant answer somthing that I dont know about.

There are some points that suprisingly havnt been metioned that I would completely agree with most of you about. We did go into the war to soon for several reasons. Lack of worthy inspectors. Imposing the democratic government views upon a society, and using it as a justification. I feel that the government sadam had needed to be overthrown, but requiring that another group of people have the same governmental style as our country is not the best thing to do. Had we tryed to let the Iraqi's establish thier own government and simply helped defend it, we would have been much more praised by the world. We made our country look like the communist power that people feared because of thier way of imposing thier governmental form upon others. Those are all extremely logical valid points. If any of you feel the war was wrong for some or all of the above reasons I will completely agree with you on those; however, those reasons alone, I feel are not enough to call this war wrong as a whole. I feel the war was a very needed help to the world. Whether most of the world agrees or not. One less country which has done nothing but affect others in a negative way is a very good thing in my oppinion. Plus the fact that we did have intelligence, whether reliable or not (which was thought by nearly everyone to be reliable at the time), that showed one of the most ruthless and power tripping rulers to have WMD's. I dont think there is any excuse to ignore that. Had Sadam actually had them, and we not gone in, God knows how many people could be dead by now or how many he could be plotting to kill. And maybe they could have ended up on our own turf. We all know kuwait wouldnt even be a country anymore. Whether he atually had them or not, you dont ignore that kind of intelligence report.
Re: Cost of war in Iraq
Sunday, April 10, 2005 1:15 PM on j-body.org
RRC:

Regarding the Intel. pre-invasion, there were 2 reports of Iraq attempting to procure Uranium 235 (an element that can be easily enriched into Uranium 285, a high explosive) from Korean and African sources... These were found by the British Intelligence Service, and disseminated to friendly NATO countries. BIS later issued a follow up report that the previous report was not credible, and that was followed by Swiss, German GS-9, and Canada's CSIS sigs reports that confirmed the follow-up report (The intel agencies listed are all electronic monitoring attache's to their Intelligence Services). The CIA, NSA and NSIA all reporting to HLSA all discounted the original reports of Iraq attempting to procure Nuclear fissable materials. This was in 2002, I believe in December previous to the address to the UN.

Now, the Executive Branch had sat on that report and returns for a while because, Iraq under Saddam Hussein did the unthinkable at the end of December 2002... They complied with full disclosure of all CBRN (Chem, Bio, Radiological and Nuclear) projects. They dumped literally 4000 pages and 100 CDr's worth of information on the front doorstep of the UN. The information contained therein has for the most part been proven as true.

The UN inspectors had been given unfettered and open access to any site they asked permission to inspect, and un-monitored access to every scientist they requested. Iraq was complying... some say too little, too late, but I say, they had given up already... The writing was on the wall for Saddam, and the only question was did he give up power to Uday & Qussay, or let the rest of the world flood in... Like him, or hate him, his bluster had gotten him into a lot of trouble, and he was doing what he could to retain all the power he could until the bitter end.

Now, here's where it gets interesting:

The fact that Iraq had actually complied with the information and access requests working in Saddam's favour, the premise behind the invasion of Iraq became a problem. He had complied with UN inspectors, and order to produce documentation about every project regarding CBRN weapons, and their delivery systems.... At this point, Bush and Blair had to either: Verify all the data that had been given (which would take months) or downplay the return of all the data as blatant falsehoods, and an attempt to stall the invasion; or, pretty much ignore the information and the fact there was compliance, and go in anyway. The third option was the more expedient politically for Britian, because BIS reports are lettered top secret, and the US because Bush didn't want to seem hesitant for a moment... Also, a massive build up in Saudi Arabia and Jordanian air bases and military installations is costly, people don't like to see that kind of a build up, and not get any action out of it.

The problem becomes this, and I'll use infinitives because this kind of situation has happened before in history, and it'll probably happen again... we humans aren't the brightest lot ever: If one nation or a group of nations forces another to comply with their orders (because of superior military force) lest they face invasion, the seiged nation complies with said orders, and the others go on in anyhow... what moral ground to the invaders have?

Basically, I look at it like this: there were numerous other places the US could have gone to help people in a lot more distress and who've been oppressed for decades longer: Ivory Coast, Sierra Leone, Rwanda, Somalia, Niger... hey if you want to limit yourself to oil bearing nations: Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Oman, UAE, Iran (all of which have dubious human rights records, and not very quiet ones either). Heck, even Afghanistan was and still is in need of a lot of help... The job isn't finished there.

The point I'm trying to make is that Iraq was not such an opportune target (I'm not just talking about oil here either, Bush carried on for his father...) then it would have left to its own devices.

At what point does human suffering in one area demand more attention than in other areas?

I would have preferred to see Iraq in the position they were in... North of the rock, and south of the hardplace. They weren't going anywhere, and they were complying. By closing off their borders, they were hoodwinked into a position where they HAD to accept Saddam as their leader... Sanctions cemented his powerbase. If sanctions were stepped down, then the Iraqi people would have had an easier time of life, and have been able to overthrow a corrupt regime when they could have grasped a better life with their own hands.

The fact that the USA, Britan and several other countries (don't forget Spain) have taken initiative and overthrown a soverign government because it committed acts of atrocity (albeit invasion 14 years after the fact), and the fact that the country was under dictatorship (albeit cemented in by US proposed sanction, and 'encouraged' initially by the USA... ) is highly disquieting... The fact that one nation or group of nations is forcing their political beliefs onto one nation (no matter that the beliefs are not being forced onto other, more oppressed nations) goes to the point that this is not about right or wrong, it's not about relieving the suffering of people, and it's not about absurd notions of letting freedom ring from every hill, plane and valley; it's simply about money, and image.

Nothing more.

I dare say, there are better ways to free millions, and, there are more sage ways to develop people's confidence and trust in you. I'd say that the Iraqi people have gotten a lot very quickly out of this invasion, no question... however, the cost that has been paid and must be paid for at least 10 years or more in enough to have borne more consideration at the outset of the war.




Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.


Re: Cost of war in Iraq
Sunday, April 10, 2005 1:46 PM on j-body.org
I should also mention, that I've glossed over a few other points for brevity, but if anyone would like to see the information sources I've culled from:

<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2003_invasion_of_Iraq">Wikipedia: Invasion of Iraq</a>

<a href="http://www.9-11commission.gov/">September 11 Commission</a> (Some links may be dead as it was not updated after 2004.)

<a href="http://www.cia.gov/cia/reports/iraq_wmd/Iraq_Oct_2002.htm">CIA Published Report on Iraq's CBRN installations</a> October 2002.
<a href="http://www.cia.gov/cia/reports/iraq_wmd_2004/">CIA Published Report on Iraq's CBRN installations</a> September 2004. Note the "miscalculation" headings in Delivery and Nuclear Programme sections.

<a href="http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/iraq/">FAS compendium</a> on Iraq's pre-invasion and post-invasion Nuclear materials. (note that there is a link regarding stolen materials after the invasion)

<a href="http://archives.cnn.com/2002/US/09/25/us.iraq.alqaeda/">CNN Reports</a> Nat. Sec. Adv. Condoleezza Rice says Iraq trained and sheltered Al-Qaeda agents pre-sept. 11, 2001 (sept 2002)
<a href="http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A47812-2004Jun16.html">Washington Post reports</a> on 9/11 Commission denying Hussein/Al-Qaeda link. June 16, 2004
<a href="http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A50679-2004Jun17.html">Washington Post reports</a> on GW Bush defending Hussein/Al-Qaeda link


As an op-ed: <a href="http://www.cato.org/dailys/07-22-04-2.html">CATO institute</a> pointing at Al-Qaeda, not Iraq, being the pre-eminent threat.





Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.


Re: Cost of war in Iraq
Sunday, April 10, 2005 1:53 PM on j-body.org
GAM: we could debate up and down about how intelligence was recieved and how it caused this, but there could never be a complete consensus. They is and will be no way to dictate whether the means for recieveing evidence is directly related to our president. Which it wasn't. There is endless possibilities and varialbles that could have changed changed the outcome. The means of how it was determined that Iraq had WMD's does not really prove anything. It was found that there were believed to be WMD's within Iraq somewhere. You will argue that Sadam completely complied. I will argue that he didnt. That will get nowhere. You are correct in saying that there may have been better opprotunities for better human rights liberation; however, there was none of those that possed an imediate threat to the world in the way of WMD's.

Did I not above say that I didnt agree with imposing our governmental beliefs upon another nation?

I feel the cost to pay for thousands more of the Iraq citizens versus some of our soldiers is an extemely justified cause. Equality and human rights doesnt mean we sit on our asses and sheild ourselves from any threatining thing. We get up and do somthing about it. When others are being threatened by thier own ruler, by sitting aside and watching, we are doing nothing but being an accomplice to those crimes.

Re: Cost of war in Iraq
Sunday, April 10, 2005 4:25 PM on j-body.org
CCR: Then you've been accomplice to millions upon millions of crimes. That's my point.

I apologise for not reading your take on the imposition of one nations morals over another... I might have glossed over it.

Anyhow, the published intel and retracted intel was made available to everyone up the chain of command... and the problem is that while regime change might have been the agenda, on the outset of his presidency, Bush has never had a credible leg to stand on with regards to Iraq.

The link to al-qaeda was at best tenuous, and has been disproven.
There were no CBRN WMD's in Iraq pre-invasion and subsequent satellite imagery has disproven the theory that all the items were shuttled off to other countries, or that they were back-hoed in and destroyed.
The only time Hussein did not comply (I'm confining my comment to the 6 months preceeding invasion) was when Bush told him and his sons to leave Iraq within 48 hours... and then, within 12 hours Whitehouse Chief of staff says they're going to invade anyhow.

How about your neighbour telling you to up and leave your house because they disaprove of your lighting off bottle rockets... you stop, they call the cops, search, find out that you don't have any more... they keep howling at you to leave? What do you do?

Thought so.




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Re: Cost of war in Iraq
Sunday, April 10, 2005 9:20 PM on j-body.org
If my bottle rockets cause any from of threat to them, they should take any means neccessary to get rid of me.

I know that we are both just stating our oppinions on this topic, it has brought up some logical points (both ways I feel), but of course neither of us are really getting anywhere. Though I didnt really expect to. I just felt that there is an overwheliming amount of people on here who seem to say they hate Bush, almost just to hate someone. I like him and the things he has done, it has directly affected me. His policies have allowed my family to increase our income and our business income has increased dramaticly. We were recently able to purchase a new office location that increased our ability to do work for our customers, and we were also able to give all employees a raise. We even have a couple employees who were strongly against Bush until they saw the direct impact he had on thier income. Needless to say had Bush not been elected for a second term we would not have done this and our employees would not have recieved the raises, we wouldnt have moved to the better location.

Obviously the war is a different topic but I just felt that some of these post are extremely one sided and seem somewhat irrogant to the pro's of what Bush has done.
Re: Cost of war in Iraq
Sunday, April 10, 2005 10:38 PM on j-body.org
Quote:


If my bottle rockets cause any from of threat to them, they should take any means neccessary to get rid of me.


Congratulations, by saying that statement, you have just given the rest of the world reasonable cause to attack the United States.


Goodbye Callisto & Skađi, Hello Ishara:
2022 Kia Stinger GT2 AWD
The only thing every single person from every single walk of life on earth can truly say
they have in common is that their country is run by a bunch of fargin iceholes.
Re: Cost of war in Iraq
Monday, April 11, 2005 9:53 AM on j-body.org
^^^ Go Keeper

Economic points aside (short term pain for long term gain), the foreign policy has taken a shift from that of controlling threats using economic and military strategies (notincluding outright invasion) of the past (I also include GHW Bush, as Op. Desert Storm and Op. Desert Shield were UN missions), to going it alone without a consensus.

It sets a very dangerous precedent is what I'm saying... there's no telling when the slope becomes so slippery you cannot recover to high ground (at least somewhat morally).

I didn't like the fact that the UN and US basically cemented Hussein in place (Post War Embargos and economic sanctions), because there were other possibilities to deal with him and not inflict hardships on the Iraqi people... They had little if nothing to do with him getting into power. And I think there was easier ways to get him out of there even if it meant there was not going to be a big ol' war. Either way, he was handled, and either way, he wasn't getting anything in or out that wasn't easily visible. I don't see why Iraq took precedence over the other places in Africa, Mid-east or the Pacific that have been suffering for over 50 years (other than the obvious), is all I'm trying to say.



Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.


Re: Cost of war in Iraq
Wednesday, April 13, 2005 12:21 PM on j-body.org
[quote=Keeper of the Light™]
1) Called on don't enter into it...if you think this was is so great, you should be over there without being drafted...pure and simple.


Well I have not been called on and I will most likely never get to see Iraq, However i do support the war and i have joined the US AIr Force. If i did it, anyone can do it. i also believe if you support it... DO SOMETHING OTHER than say "i support our troops". Sitting at home and bantering on about how you support the war and the president means jack unless you do something about it.


~OPSE
Re: Cost of war in Iraq
Thursday, April 14, 2005 11:32 AM on j-body.org
[quote=Keeper of the Light™]2 things, rollin:

1) Called on don't enter into it...if you think this war is so great, you should be over there without being drafted...pure and simple.

quote]



then by that same respect if you guys are so opposed to the us being at war in iraq u shoud fly over there and fight on the insurgents side, or just keep quite, that door does swing both ways guys. so not the best suggestion to use.



i wanted to pipe in about spending the money on better education. the reason whey spending more on kids doesnt work isnt because of the money its about where they spend the money, they dont take the money to find better teachers and better methods of teaching, they use it to build the most oppulent school building money can afford


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Re: Cost of war in Iraq
Thursday, April 14, 2005 2:39 PM on j-body.org
Quote:

then by that same respect if you guys are so opposed to the us being at war in iraq u shoud fly over there and fight on the insurgents side, or just keep quite, that door does swing both ways guys. so not the best suggestion to use.


Actually it is, because i don't WANT ANY WAR GOING ON. hence, i'm not fighting for either side. i think both sides need to get a kick in the goolies.


Goodbye Callisto & Skađi, Hello Ishara:
2022 Kia Stinger GT2 AWD
The only thing every single person from every single walk of life on earth can truly say
they have in common is that their country is run by a bunch of fargin iceholes.
Re: Cost of war in Iraq
Friday, April 15, 2005 5:58 AM on j-body.org
okay then basically you should shut up or go hop on a plane and do something about it, go grab both of them by the ears sit them down and make them play nice. and by all means kick them in the goolies.

im just pointing out that by saying you should shut up or go fight is no diffrent then someone telling u to get out of the country if u dont like it.


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