Alright I've never read anything in this whole war forum, but I saw the "Questions for christians" topic and decided to take a look. I wasn't too surprised, someone asking questions to people who call themselves christians or those who just may be religious, about right and wrong. Apparently this argument has gone on for quite a while, and not to sound like I'm so intelligent and I have all the awnsers, I will say that I do have one awnser: Research. If you want to ask a christian a question, don't ask someone in a car club. Thats like me asking a preist whats wrong with my trans. The preist may hold interest in cars (compared to my weekly church going) but won't know. If you want to know something about religion, ask someone who knows religion. Go to a local church and ask a preist, then ask another at a different church. Don't just go to a catholic church, there are other religions to question, find out their views on how to live a holy life. Research the topic with people who actually made their life that topic, not somone who spends a coulpe hours a week on it. Then start a topic on what the church has to say. Everyday people can argue it day in day out and no one will get ahead because nine times out of ten it's opinion. Wouldn't anyone rather talk about this topic if it was about what the church has to say and how you and I feel about it?

Joe Hampton wrote:Alright I've never read anything in this whole war forum, but I saw the "Questions for christians" topic and decided to take a look. I wasn't too surprised, someone asking questions to people who call themselves christians or those who just may be religious, about right and wrong. Apparently this argument has gone on for quite a while, and not to sound like I'm so intelligent and I have all the awnsers, I will say that I do have one awnser: Research. If you want to ask a christian a question, don't ask someone in a car club. Thats like me asking a preist whats wrong with my trans. The preist may hold interest in cars (compared to my weekly church going) but won't know. If you want to know something about religion, ask someone who knows religion. Go to a local church and ask a preist, then ask another at a different church. Don't just go to a catholic church, there are other religions to question, find out their views on how to live a holy life. Research the topic with people who actually made their life that topic, not somone who spends a coulpe hours a week on it. Then start a topic on what the church has to say. Everyday people can argue it day in day out and no one will get ahead because nine times out of ten it's opinion. Wouldn't anyone rather talk about this topic if it was about what the church has to say and how you and I feel about it?

Someones belief isnt really based off of a religion. A lot of people consider themselves christian yet they dont follow one exact religion that could say many different things on this topic.

Also, do you think that this is somthing ever priest or minister would know the exact answer to. This is a question with many veriables which can be answered in many ways. When someone enters to be a priest or minister, I dont think this EXACT question was a topic in thier "training".

<cracks his knuckles, his neck, and pops his back...>

Aright, let's take this one step at a time.

ECB, you are sadly mistaken if you think we can predict the weather--we can't. We can extrapolate, we can come up with an educatede guess, but we cannot predict it to a precision that is so close as to be foretelling.As such, the tools and a good education get you *close*, but this ain't horseshooes or hand-grenades.

If there was no chaos, then we would be able to ACCURATELY predict the weather--not just on the general of what's going to happen for the mean weather of the day, the possible high/low, humidity, etc. I'm talking they would be able to give an accurate timetable for every location as to what the weather would be doing at any given time you desire.

They can't. No one can. The forecast for Today (being the 12th) said it would be cloudy in Seattle with a westerly wind of 6mph. It rained thrice durning the day, was sunny 2 times, cloudy the rest, the winds varied from a west pattern at 20mph to SE at 2.

Is that predicting the weather? If you think it is, then really, how many times were you taken in by Miss Cleo?

As for the chaos part of it, since it is impossibly to know what every subatomic particle is doing at any given point in time, would it be exact? Hardly. There is no way to get a precice recration of an exact moment in time because it is unfathomable for any human to be able to set a situation in tha form of precsion. Further, it's impossib;le to predict that form of prescsion.

'cause really, if you don't be;live in chance, luck, or coincidence, then really, the best way to prove that would be for you to make a mint at the craps table. After all, if there is no such thing as chance or coincidence, you should be able to learn how to throw the ice o that you win every time--and ake into consideration EVERY variable that could come into play when you throw the dice.

As such, Chaos does exist, and moreso, it is the fundamental force in the universe, because from it is where order comes from. After all, e, pi, and other irrational numbers create rational ones.

And lastly on chaos: Cloud formations, holes in swiss cheese, fractals, and the like--all chaos.

Now RRC:

If chaos is a proven failyure, it wouldn't exist, would it? Snowflaes and the weather, not to mention quantum particle physics, prove in theory (not fact, but God is thery and not fact as well) that chaos DOES INDEED exist, and that it is one of the fundamental concepts in everything. Hence, it can't be a failure-if it was....it wouldn't exist anymore.

Still, i still pity your rose-colored glasses view of the world--specifically in the "mankind cannot live in chaos," because we live in it every day--through chaos comes order, but NOTHING is certain. What makes nothing certain is chaos.as such, mankind lives with it, lives in it, and deals with it however gest them through the day. As such, does Chaos work for mankind? Yes. It has for the majority of human "civilization". it is the fundamental even now--because the "normal people" tend to delude themselves from seeing, and working with, the chaos around them by "control", that illusion we all buy into. As such, chaos is the defining principle.

If it wasn't and order was the best thing for us--tell me, why does comedy make us laugh, then? You never know what's going to happen from place to place--time-to-time. That is chaos. if it was order, then we'd know, because all of the variables would be accounted for.

We can't account for all of the variables because we don't know, and will most likely never know all of the variables. As such, it's chaos. And again, chaos spawns order.

Now, dumbing this down further, to elaborate my ORIGINAL point in terms that i can try to better clarify: There are some that think living for Order is the way: the structure, thing need to be done for the preservation of that which is grater than us--society and civilization. Per your answers to things, you, and ECB, both have alluded to that way of thinking--there's nothing wrong with that. My way of thinking is more riding the wave of chaos--carpe diem. Society and civilization are not the fundamental things that are needed for life because we've lived without them for more years than we've not lived without them--As such, you d what you do, let others do what they do, and sieze the moment. If you need to say @!#$, then say @!#$. The common person is alive, but not living anyway--most of them are soulless animations and are boring as all hell to beign with.


Goodbye Callisto & Skaði, Hello Ishara:
2022 Kia Stinger GT2 AWD
The only thing every single person from every single walk of life on earth can truly say
they have in common is that their country is run by a bunch of fargin iceholes.

Quote:

Also, do you think that this is somthing ever priest or minister would know the exact answer to. This is a question with many veriables which can be answered in many ways. When someone enters to be a priest or minister, I dont think this EXACT question was a topic in thier "training".

No, I don't think a preist is asked this in his training, but I think he would know the church's stance alot better than anyone in an internet forum would.

I was never really askign for a priest's stance and the "ofiicial" church's stance. I was more or less looking towards the "christian layperson's" stance on it.

Less about actual policy--more on how they feel. Specifically, do they feel a woman or a man in a porno wearing a crucifix is a desecration.


Goodbye Callisto & Skaði, Hello Ishara:
2022 Kia Stinger GT2 AWD
The only thing every single person from every single walk of life on earth can truly say
they have in common is that their country is run by a bunch of fargin iceholes.

The point i was getting to was that everything is fixed...all cause and effect... I have to work soon and i didn't have time to read all that..

On a sidenote, just because we don't yet posess the hardware to take the "chaos" or "randoms" out of life, doesn't mean that we will never.....

craps, for example...nothing more than physics...we,as humans, don't have the control necessary to throw an 11 everytime... as there's too much for our mind to consider...friction coefficient of the table, the effects of the angles on the dice rotating while moving in a 3 dimensional direction against the "wall", the elasticity of the felt, the dice, and the wall in reference to eachother, the air density and humidity, faint crosswinds caused by other people, the vibration of the dice and table, etc ,etc, etc....so it would "seem" chaotic....but it's really not....it's perfectly fixed, and if we could plug in numbers for all of these variables, then we could roll that 11 everytime....

You're leaving a lot out--for example, who walks where when and why, and why not. Nothing is fixed because of that. That is chaos. Even out most powerful computers can't take in all of the variables because there are nearly, if not, an infinite number of them. As such, nothing is a constant because you have nigh-infinite, if not infinite amount of variables to calculate and take into consideration. Chaos is that uncertainty.

Another example is comedy--a very human trait that is based off of chaos. Things are funny because of that uncertainty principle--something that doesn't fit, doesn't add up, unexpected, etc.

Radio static/TV static is another form of chaos--there is no pattern to it except for randomness--chaos.

Pi--the ratio between a circle's diameter and circumference is an irrational number--a non-repeating decimal, is chaos. There is no pattern (least not one we've discovered except for the pattern that there is no pattern.

e--the number used for calulating continually compound interest--and many other funtions, is again, an irrational non-repeating decimal--chaos.

While it is conjecture to say thses will never be solved, it's also conjecture to say that they will. As such, chaos theoretically exists in the absolute, and in the relative it definitly does.


Goodbye Callisto & Skaði, Hello Ishara:
2022 Kia Stinger GT2 AWD
The only thing every single person from every single walk of life on earth can truly say
they have in common is that their country is run by a bunch of fargin iceholes.

[quote=Keeper of the Light™]
Now RRC:

If chaos is a proven failyure, it wouldn't exist, would it? Snowflaes and the weather, not to mention quantum particle physics, prove in theory (not fact, but God is thery and not fact as well) that chaos DOES INDEED exist, and that it is one of the fundamental concepts in everything. Hence, it can't be a failure-if it was....it wouldn't exist anymore.

Still, i still pity your rose-colored glasses view of the world--specifically in the "mankind cannot live in chaos," because we live in it every day--through chaos comes order, but NOTHING is certain. What makes nothing certain is chaos.as such, mankind lives with it, lives in it, and deals with it however gest them through the day. As such, does Chaos work for mankind? Yes. It has for the majority of human "civilization". it is the fundamental even now--because the "normal people" tend to delude themselves from seeing, and working with, the chaos around them by "control", that illusion we all buy into. As such, chaos is the defining principle.

If it wasn't and order was the best thing for us--tell me, why does comedy make us laugh, then? You never know what's going to happen from place to place--time-to-time. That is chaos. if it was order, then we'd know, because all of the variables would be accounted for.

We can't account for all of the variables because we don't know, and will most likely never know all of the variables. As such, it's chaos. And again, chaos spawns order.

Now, dumbing this down further, to elaborate my ORIGINAL point in terms that i can try to better clarify: There are some that think living for Order is the way: the structure, thing need to be done for the preservation of that which is grater than us--society and civilization. Per your answers to things, you, and ECB, both have alluded to that way of thinking--there's nothing wrong with that. My way of thinking is more riding the wave of chaos--carpe diem. Society and civilization are not the fundamental things that are needed for life because we've lived without them for more years than we've not lived without them--As such, you d what you do, let others do what they do, and sieze the moment. If you need to say @!#$, then say @!#$. The common person is alive, but not living anyway--most of them are soulless animations and are boring as all hell to beign with.

In your first paragraph you are still including nature. Keeper, I am not dissagreeing that the whole way our world became is through choas. That is the whole idea on how we even came to be humans. You hit it dead nutz when speaking about quantum physics etc. etc.

You seem to not be grasping it when I say your are not living according to chaos. You wake up to what? An alarm clock on work days, thats organization, you eat breakfast, somthing you bought, organization. You go to work, on schedule, organization. Hell, you organize to meet with our friends. Humans are the only organized animals. We became that way because at some point there wasnt enough food in the trees to keep us alive up there. We moved to the ground and learned to harvest from anything we could. We organized with other humans to allow better productivity and reproduction abilities. Then we also needed protection. We found out that protection came easier when we could think of ways of defense and band together with other humans.

If we didnt have logical thinking, or the parts of the brain which allow us to contemplate and remember as much as we can now, we wouldnt be around. We cant defend ourselves. We would then be on strictly instinct. We wouldnt be intelligent beings. Our society is only an advanced society because we learned to live with organization, which is essentially a lack of choas. Dont get me wrong at this point. Obviously there are things in our lives that are chaotic times. Unexpected events are a such. Notice though, when humans come about a choatic even how we are the worst animals for handling such. Some can deal better than others but yet we just arnt made for choas. We learned to separate ourselves from it by organizing.

And if you are going to say that humans were created by choas, well damn, your right. I understand that. A snowflake, the weather, yada yada. The world is choas, complete choas. But yet there is one thing that can chose to defeat the whole world. HUMANS. We could destroy almost all life if we chose to. We rose above choas. The only thing that we still see are those unexpected events. Which yes, are choas, yet like I said we dont deal well at all. If someone steals lunch from a human, we worry more about getting that one lunch back than we do with just giong and getting another one. Other animals still live in choas. Thier instincts would imediatly tell them to find more food.

Plain and simple. If we didnt learn how to organize, we wouldnt be living in a house, we wouldnt have cars, there just wouldnt be any of that. It would be a struggle for survival every day.

My last post you must not have read completely because you still went on about snowflakes and weather, which is not what you said in your origional post about choas. You said mankind. Mankind as we know it, could simply not be mankind with complete choas. We are organized, not choatic.

Quote:

Humans are the only organized animals.

What about Salmon and Trout? They spawn at a certain time of year every year at roughly the same places. What about birds building nests? What about wolf packs and other various animal herds. I believe the animal world is organized as well. Animals aren't as simple minded as we think they are.
Here's another question on the subject. What do you think of the various rappers and other musicians using actors to portray Priests, Fathers, Pastors etc... in thier music videos?

I won't touch the "Organized animals" because Spike already hit it.

But you're not grasping that i'm includding nature in this becase we are a part of nature, we life in nature, and we are one with nature whether yiou think we are or not--we are at nature's mercy. Don't believe me? Ask the people in Sumatra.

Do i wake up to an alarm clock? Sometimes, but i hit the snooze button an indeterminant number of times on a work day--depending on how tired I am.

Nor do i always eat breakfast--I eat when i'm hungry. Lunch is the same at my job--i don't always take my lunch at noon--it's someties as early as 10, sometimes as late as 3--it depends on what my chaotic work schedule is (and yes, it is chaotic). Does it bother me? No. I don't seek order. I don't live by order or don't need order. If order is there, c'est la vie. If not, it's not going to phase me--never has, never will. I just move on to whatever comes next and deal with it how I do. I don't lose sleep and don't stress if something doesn't fall into my preconceived notions of the way the world should work.

And you bring on an intresting side point--Humans, while never high and mighty enough to exterminate all life on this planet (i believe i proved that a few months ago by saying if all of the world's arsenal went off at once it would do little besdies a mass extinction (not wiping out everything, just mainly ourselves)), will be our own downfall because many of the humans are like you--they can't function in chaos, while people like me deal just fine in it. Those that can't will die off, why? all they know and are use to is no more--their order is gone. Me? I'm alive--I'll manage.

Further, memory is not a function of order. If soemone as absent-minded as me can slur out perfect directions on how to get home while face-down in the gutter and 50 sheets to the wind, it proves that at least in me, memory is not a function of order, and chaos doesn't effect it.

Anyhow, enough on that tangent, back full circle:

You and ECB make one keyword that shoots the whole thing in the foot: WE. not I, WE. That was my point there, and the foundation thereof. You and him think in terms of WE, I think in terms of I. that's the difference, and that's what's causing this. You and him seem to share the same trait of doing what's best for the machine--society--the foundation of your lives. No problems with that--that's what you find is right and will teach your kids. For me, I think on I: What to do to keep me alive, procreate, and get along in life--with or without the rest of the specie. To me, there is no greater, there is no reason to have a false habitat for comfort--life throws what it will at you, and you have to deal--that's not order, that's chaos--and that's what I will pass on.


Goodbye Callisto & Skaði, Hello Ishara:
2022 Kia Stinger GT2 AWD
The only thing every single person from every single walk of life on earth can truly say
they have in common is that their country is run by a bunch of fargin iceholes.

I am done even talking about choas here because I think you are the one not grasping. But of course you thinking your the "master of thought" will not see that. You dont realize that no matter how much of a "rebel" or "individual" you are, you got the way your are because of somthing. Every event you witness affects you in some way. You are part of the social machine.

One thing that I find very important for you to realize, you obviously dont know anything about me by saying the things you have. I surely dont think in a WE sence, nor an I sence. WE gets no where because there are others like yourself which dont dontribute because of a self centered view. I doesnt work because humans can simply not survive without society, or a form of government for that matter. The family unit developed because it is the most effiecient way of raising an offspring. And there is a head of the household, same as the government. I realize that my life is worthless. My own survival and instinct means absolutely nothing. I die and the world doesnt even see it. There is no WE and no I.

So you say I look at the world through "rose-colored glasses", WOW! You successfuly got about as far off as it gets. The world is the worst place anyone could possible imagine to be. I would rather be in hell, to be honest.

The fact that you suggest hitting your snooze button is choas, is beyond belief. Or that your work schedule.

cha·os ( P ) Pronunciation Key (ks)
n.
-A condition or place of great disorder or confusion.
-A disorderly mass; a jumble: The desk was a chaos of papers and unopened letters.
-often Chaos The disordered state of unformed matter and infinite space supposed in some cosmogonic views to have existed before the ordered universe.

Your snooze button doesnt fit in this. Nor does even the craziest of work schedules. If you have a schedule, its not chaos. Your right the world is complete chaos. Yet humans do every single little thing they can, EVERY SINGLE THING, to stop chaos. BECAUSE WE DONT LIVE WITH IT. we cant live with it. We would not be a species. We would have died long long ago had we not learned to overcome it and organize. Tell me how that last sentance is not true. That is the only point I am trying to get through. Yet you dont seem to understand that.

Salmon, trout, birds..... instinct. They have instinct that allows them to remember a certain place, and how to get there. That is a salmon's high point. They return to the place they were born and spawn. Then come back the next year. Birds build a nest because they evolved on ways to protect thier eggs. Humans on the other hand, are constantly evolving to what they need at one single moment. Every time somthing comes up we change what we are doing. It is a constant change throughout even a simple day. Yet a salmon swims, eats, spawns, and stays away from danger as best as possible. There is one key thing a salmon does, it swims. That gets it to food, spawn, and away from danger. They need food so they can swim etc. etc. Its pure instinct. Now if humans simply walked on two feet, ate, and hid from danger, then they would be unorganized, jsut like salmon. Yet we group together, think, plan, change.... endless list of major things that got us where we are. Salmon dont group. They simply follow food and find spawning area. So duh, they are going to be in the same general region. Animals rely on instinct, plain and simple, humans use instinct and rely on organization.

As I think you are the one not grasping--and can't see trees around you because you're too busy to stare at the forest.

So let's just agree to disagree and get back to the topic at hand, shall we? Since you think i'm so dense that Roseanne has fallen into orbit around me and vice-versa.


Goodbye Callisto & Skaði, Hello Ishara:
2022 Kia Stinger GT2 AWD
The only thing every single person from every single walk of life on earth can truly say
they have in common is that their country is run by a bunch of fargin iceholes.

Quote:

cha·os ( P ) Pronunciation Key (ks)
n.
-A condition or place of great disorder or confusion.
-A disorderly mass; a jumble: The desk was a chaos of papers and unopened letters.
-often Chaos The disordered state of unformed matter and infinite space supposed in some cosmogonic views to have existed before the ordered universe.

^Sounds like the table next to my Lazyboy. lol

Quote:

Animals rely on instinct, plain and simple, humans use instinct and rely on organization.

What about Wolf packs? They have a leader that organizes the hunt. Lion packs are usually led by a male lion however the female lions do the brunt of the work but they all work together for common goals. Elephant herds are organized and also have a family sense to them for example Experienced mother elephants will help out the inexperienced mother elephants. Watch Nature shows on TV every once and awhile you'll learn animals aren't as stupid and simple minded as we think they are.