^^^^^^^^^^^word brother

GAM (The Kilted One) wrote:taetsch: Yeah.. no WMD. Would you like the CIA Senate report? ISG found nothing undeclared, that was not for defensive use (remember Iran? they still hate Saddam... and if they have Nukes, Iraq had to be able to defend against them).

even if there were no WMD saddam had the power and connections to start producing them... scary guy and its a good thing hes out of power


Check out my build thread!

It WAS NOT possible for Saddam Hussein to develop or procure nuclear arms.

At his height of power before 1991, he had no ability to create a weapon of mass destruction, and after that, there was barely the ability to have electricity produced reliably from the 3 reactors that could have produced bomb-grade isotopes.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/library/news/iraq/2005/04/iraq-050426-voa01.htm

If you want to look further into it, Google: "Duelfer Report" or "Iraq Survey Group WMD."

Saddam had no power or connections to get anything approaching the ominous, but non-existant Yellow-cake. Do you know what is involved in making even a low-yield dirty bomb, much less a low/medium yield nuclear weapon? You don't open the big book o' nukes and pick out G-12 and get a parcel from FED-EX in 4-6 weeks.



Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.

98_SunFire GT wrote:Being a Desert Storm vet, The reason we are still there? Cuz we shoulda finished it the forst time.

Im only 18 and I know that. If we had finished the first time this never would have happened. Whether or not Saddam had or was capable of nuclear weapons is irrelevant. He was still capable of producing chemical weapons, which he tested on his own people. And he was a threat to the entire free world. We are still over there cause it is the responsibility of the strong to protect the weak. hehe to quote spiderman sorry,

"With great power, comes great responsibility."

He needed to be gone. What we did wasnt neccassarily the BEST thing for us but, it was the RIGHT thing to do.


____________________________________________________________________

Madjack wrote:Like I said before, building an engine like ours (2.2 or 2200) is a painstaking chore , since there is so few custom made parts. It's frustrating to me too, but that's what I like about doing this engine, it's the challenge.

Quote:

He needed to be gone. What we did wasnt neccassarily the BEST thing for us but, it was the RIGHT thing to do.

amen to that!


Check out my build thread!

jbody2nr:

Not to put too fine a point on it, but there were a LOT greater threats to US national security, and the world at large, then and now.

I won't do a complete list, or alphabetically, but:
North Korea,
Iran,
Columbia,
Ivory Coast,
Sierra Leone,
Lebanon,
Chechnya...

Chemical weapons alone: North Korea has supplied many countries (Iran, Syria, Egypt) with CRBN materials, and Columbia fuels approximately 40% of the drug trade in the USA.

The list goes on, and there are far greater despots, and far longer standing and greater sufferings of people more oppressed. Iraq was pretty much a naked power-grab, and to say otherwise is to ignore the abbreviated list I just made.




Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.

Iraq was as much a threat to the "freedoms" of American people as Glade air freshener is to a @!#$ty stinch.


"Speak the truth, and leave immediately after"
"The urge to save Humanity is almost ALWAYS a false front for the urge to rule"
"He who knoweth things as they are and not as they are said or seem to be, he truly is wise, and is taught of God more than of men."

Actually, Iraq is just a staging area so that we can invade Iran. We just had to get rid of Saddam first and we forgot to tell the Hadjis what we were up to, once they get the word we'll be fine.




Yella02-I promise I will return to you in one piece and this will stay up until I am safely home

Lots of countries have the ability to produce nuclear weapons. No one is going to use one against the US. Do you realize if they did their entire country would be one giant wasteland within a few hours?


I think we are wasting our time buggin other countries when we have enough weapons to destroy the World several times over. We have bombs buried in the ground called "Coball" they are strong enough to knock the World out of its axis.

Iraq was a great waste of more of my tax dollars nothing more.




- 2004 Cavalier - 124k, owned since new

The day i trust the UN to find WMD........

but what do i know, RIGHT?

Chris


"An appeal to arms and the God of hosts is all that is left us. But we shall not fight our battle alone. There is a just God that presides over the destinies of nations. The battle sir, is not of the strong alone. Is life so dear or peace so sweet as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it almighty God. I know not what course others may take, but as for me, give me liberty, or give me death."

Speech at the Second Virginia Convention at St. John's Church in Richmond, Virginia (23 March 1775) Patrick Henry

GAM (The Kilted One) wrote:jbody2nr:

Not to put too fine a point on it, but there were a LOT greater threats to US national security, and the world at large, then and now.

I won't do a complete list, or alphabetically, but:
North Korea,
Iran,
Columbia,
Ivory Coast,
Sierra Leone,
Lebanon,
Chechnya...

Chemical weapons alone: North Korea has supplied many countries (Iran, Syria, Egypt) with CRBN materials, and Columbia fuels approximately 40% of the drug trade in the USA.

The list goes on, and there are far greater despots, and far longer standing and greater sufferings of people more oppressed. Iraq was pretty much a naked power-grab, and to say otherwise is to ignore the abbreviated list I just made.

And we should do something about it. I wasnt saying he was the ONLY problem just that he WAS a problem that we dealt with.

Chamillionaire wrote:Iraq was as much a threat to the "freedoms" of American people as Glade air freshener is to a @!#$ty stinch.

Took care of the problem though didnt it?

Rob S wrote:Lots of countries have the ability to produce nuclear weapons. No one is going to use one against the US. Do you realize if they did their entire country would be one giant wasteland within a few hours?


I think we are wasting our time buggin other countries when we have enough weapons to destroy the World several times over. We have bombs buried in the ground called "Coball" they are strong enough to knock the World out of its axis.

Iraq was a great waste of more of my tax dollars nothing more.

All they would need to do is get one in JUST one and then we could never use them.

Is the military a waste of tax dollars too, I mean if you think we shouldnt bother other countries then we shouldnt have a military right. If we just did away with it then we would have so many countries up our ass it wouldnt be funny. Consider Iraq training for what is to come, it is inevitable.


____________________________________________________________________

Madjack wrote:Like I said before, building an engine like ours (2.2 or 2200) is a painstaking chore , since there is so few custom made parts. It's frustrating to me too, but that's what I like about doing this engine, it's the challenge.

Right now the price tag of war is 180 Billion.

The War In Iraq Costs $180,319,597,584 Instead:

we could have paid for 23,883,390 children to attend a year of Head Start.

we could have insured 107,975,867 children for one year.

we could have hired 3,124,964 additional public school teachers for one year.

we could have provided 8,741,514 students four-year scholarships at public universities .

we could have built 1,623,612 additional housing units .

we could have fully funded world-wide AIDS programs for 18 years.

we could have ensured that every child in the world was given basic immunizations for
60 years.



I think the war is going 'GREAT'.....

At least my hard earned money is going for something to better AMERICA!

YA!! I would much better see plains crash in to buildings instead of spend money, but what’s a human life right?

But behind the commuter screen we all know everything don’t we? Never mind the solders and Marines that have died for your right to bitch and moan about this country and its leaders. Never mind what they have SEEN. What they’ve felt and heard. What do they know; they’re just some over paid scum that deserves our ridicule.

If you’re all so concerned DO SOMTHING ABOUT IT.
Call, or Wright your congressman, and if you live Canada, (its not my fault) then don’t worry your self with what were doing, we saved your a$$’s in 2 world wars and have been doing so since 1945. I didn’t want to be part of the bitching, I wanted to be part of the solution, help stop another 911 from happing agene. And guess what…. Even with all our bitching another 911 HASENT HAPEND… I guess the CIA can’t be doing to bad of a job, EH?

Again what do I know?

I, for one, would love to see the US get out of the UN and world affairs. Let them kill each other I really don’t care.
HOWEVER as a Marine I have the liberty of not being involved in this petty bull sh!t called politics.

Ultimately it comes down to this. I serve the people of the US, the People have chosen its leaders, IE Congress, and the President, putting trust and faith that these leaders are acting in the peoples best interest; I flow the orders of those appointed over me.

Chris



"An appeal to arms and the God of hosts is all that is left us. But we shall not fight our battle alone. There is a just God that presides over the destinies of nations. The battle sir, is not of the strong alone. Is life so dear or peace so sweet as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it almighty God. I know not what course others may take, but as for me, give me liberty, or give me death."

Speech at the Second Virginia Convention at St. John's Church in Richmond, Virginia (23 March 1775) Patrick Henry

lowercontrol wrote:Right now the price tag of war is 180 Billion.

The War In Iraq Costs $180,319,597,584 Instead:

we could have paid for 23,883,390 children to attend a year of Head Start.

we could have insured 107,975,867 children for one year.

we could have hired 3,124,964 additional public school teachers for one year.

we could have provided 8,741,514 students four-year scholarships at public universities .

we could have built 1,623,612 additional housing units .

we could have fully funded world-wide AIDS programs for 18 years.

we could have ensured that every child in the world was given basic immunizations for
60 years.



I think the war is going 'GREAT'.....

At least my hard earned money is going for something to better AMERICA!

And by doing so we would be condemning millions to death while we watch them from overseas, happy in our snug little hole, Your right we could have funded all that (except the AIDS programs they would cost ALOT more than that), but we are assisting with the AIDS epidemic in ways we can, ours resources must be spread onto a larger area not focusing on any particular one.

TaetschZ24 wrote:YA!! I would much better see plains crash in to buildings instead of spend money, but what’s a human life right?

But behind the commuter screen we all know everything don’t we? Never mind the solders and Marines that have died for your right to bitch and moan about this country and its leaders. Never mind what they have SEEN. What they’ve felt and heard. What do they know; they’re just some over paid scum that deserves our ridicule.

If you’re all so concerned DO SOMTHING ABOUT IT.
Call, or Wright your congressman, and if you live Canada, (its not my fault) then don’t worry your self with what were doing, we saved your a$$’s in 2 world wars and have been doing so since 1945. I didn’t want to be part of the bitching, I wanted to be part of the solution, help stop another 911 from happing agene. And guess what…. Even with all our bitching another 911 HASENT HAPEND… I guess the CIA can’t be doing to bad of a job, EH?

Again what do I know?

I, for one, would love to see the US get out of the UN and world affairs. Let them kill each other I really don’t care.
HOWEVER as a Marine I have the liberty of not being involved in this petty bull sh!t called politics.

Ultimately it comes down to this. I serve the people of the US, the People have chosen its leaders, IE Congress, and the President, putting trust and faith that these leaders are acting in the peoples best interest; I flow the orders of those appointed over me.

Chris

AMEN!!!!!



____________________________________________________________________

Madjack wrote:Like I said before, building an engine like ours (2.2 or 2200) is a painstaking chore , since there is so few custom made parts. It's frustrating to me too, but that's what I like about doing this engine, it's the challenge.

jbody2nr:

You really need to learn more about how poor people think...

- They don't give a @!#$ about right and wrong or principle when their kids are starving and families are dying. The best way to opiate a group of people is get them the basics: Food and shelter. They don't give a damn yet about freedom because they're living little better than animals. Once they have the basics, then they can get more for themselves, and if their government is ameenable and wise, they'll let it happen or risk revolution. That kind of thing happened in the USA not entirely too long ago.

- Once you ensure life, you can ensure freedom, and it generally costs a whole lot less to vaccinate, feed and begin then sustain agricultural programmes than it does to lay waste to a large area of land that is governed by an oppressed people. Help the people help themselves, and they'll be less likely to allow an opressor govern because they'll own their freedom. What is happening in Iraq is nice, but frankly, unless there is an overhaul, I can see some very bad things happening there in the near-future (Think of what happened in Afghanistan after the Russian's pulled out, and there was no support from the West).

Taesch:

Quote:


YA!! I would much better see plains crash in to buildings instead of spend money, but what’s a human life right?

But behind the commuter screen we all know everything don’t we? Never mind the solders and Marines that have died for your right to bitch and moan about this country and its leaders. Never mind what they have SEEN. What they’ve felt and heard. What do they know; they’re just some over paid scum that deserves our ridicule.

Do you not get at all that Iraq has absolutely SFA to do with 9/11/01?

Do you think that just because a lot of people haven't seen what it's like in Iraq, that they can't understand a power grab when they see it?

I respect what you do as a marine, but frankly, you need to learn that yours is not to reason why... You're letting your view of an issue get clouded by emotion.

Quote:



If you’re all so concerned DO SOMTHING ABOUT IT.
Call, or Wright your congressman, and if you live Canada, (its not my fault) then don’t worry your self with what were doing, we saved your a$$’s in 2 world wars and have been doing so since 1945. I didn’t want to be part of the bitching, I wanted to be part of the solution, help stop another 911 from happing agene. And guess what…. Even with all our bitching another 911 HASENT HAPEND… I guess the CIA can’t be doing to bad of a job, EH?

No.. no.. no...

Save our asses in 2 world wars? Hrmm..

WWI- 1914-1918. Canada was in in 1917, when Americans were getting their arses shot off in droves by the Kaiser's troops, Funny that you missed the point that Germany was beaten back by.. hrmm... FOUR countries? It's why they're called ALLIES... FYI: Britain, CANADA, and France were in the thick of it for 3 years before hand... thanks.. really, dragging your feet has been american as payola since 1812.

WWII started in 1939... continued until 1945, unless you missed it, WWII started when Germany invaded Poland. Guess what, Canada was right in there from the beginning till the end, but then again, I said it... sorry, dragging your feet... my bad.

Seems to me that In every hot war (except Iraq) Canada has been there shoulder to shoulder with Americans and you're thinking that we pussy out... Well here's one for you: we go where there's something worth fighting for and protecting, you go when you think there's something worth taking.

How about this when you start thinking the CIA is doing their job: remember they're not concerned with internal threats, mmkay? they work outside the country, the FBI is inside.. the fact that 9/11/01 was the SECOND major time the CIA/FBI/NSA/NSIA dropped the ball in regards to a terrorist plot speaks volumes. When's the 3rd time going to make it clear that it's not working, eh professor?

You frankly sicken me with those utterly uninformed and imbecile comments.

Crack open a @!#$ encyclopedia once in a while. You'll look like you actually know something before you start chowing down on boot leather.

Quote:


Again what do I know?

Very little. If you took a few minutes to inform yourself of where the US stands in regards to the rest of the world, you'd realise it's on equal footing.

Quote:


I, for one, would love to see the US get out of the UN and world affairs. Let them kill each other I really don’t care.
HOWEVER as a Marine I have the liberty of not being involved in this petty bull sh!t called politics.

That would be a mistake, but then again, considering the degree to which you're uninformed, I don't find that kind of jingoist ideal surprising.

And you ARE in fact involved in politics. You have the right to vote, you can let your congressperson and senator know how you feel regarding certain issues, and you're obviously flapping your gums (as it were... ) about things of which you are CLEARLY at least partially in the dark about... You're involved you just choose to think that you're not.

WAKE THE HELL UP CHRIS.

Quote:


Ultimately it comes down to this. I serve the people of the US, the People have chosen its leaders, IE Congress, and the President, putting trust and faith that these leaders are acting in the peoples best interest; I flow the orders of those appointed over me.

You follow orders because you have to, however, your faith and trust are misplaced.




Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.

Until you go the places I have, and have seen through the eyes that fellow Marines have you can not speak this "power grab,"

And yes you got in to world war-II faster than us.... but you were loosing. Member
EH?


Our views are different, and I except that, there are cheeks and balances that are in place to make sure that the common interest is at least partly flowed. ( in an ideal situation. )

Maybe I’m just an idealist and like to believe I’m helping out in some little way. I wont know till I pass on, but well see right, time will tell.

Chris







"An appeal to arms and the God of hosts is all that is left us. But we shall not fight our battle alone. There is a just God that presides over the destinies of nations. The battle sir, is not of the strong alone. Is life so dear or peace so sweet as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it almighty God. I know not what course others may take, but as for me, give me liberty, or give me death."

Speech at the Second Virginia Convention at St. John's Church in Richmond, Virginia (23 March 1775) Patrick Henry

Taesch:

1: I've seen things that would make your heart sink and your faith in humanity wilt.

2: You forget that the Allies were still getting pounded until D-Day. Americans were getting wailed on just as much as Brits and Canucks... If you want to talk about winning, Canadians were the only troops to get and hold objectives for D-Day on both beaches that were allotted to us (Juno and Sword/Gold beach).

I have family that fought with US, CDN and UK forces in WWII, and it wasn't ever about internal rivalries, it was about putting down the bad guys... it was clearly defined, and came into even more focus after the war (with the holocaust). Iraq is far too nebulous, and the fact is that there are other places that are more important (ie. North Korea)...

The problem with going into Iraq, is that there was next to no dissenting opinion... there was little discussion, and if there had been, I doubt the 1,700 some-odd soldiers would have been KIA, and maybe, just maybe, places like the ones I listed above would get help, and there'd be a lot less dischord in the world among the political elite.

No one is going to deny your contribution, just make sure that you're following the right people, and listen to the voice of dissent, because it's usually making a good arguement.

And you don't know how to use eh... stick to huh? okie?




Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.

Nah, I’m from Wisconsin, we say that all the time, I was trying to be a smart a$$
But in the end I am an idealist. Character flaw I guess.
Oh well
I’m only on this rock for so long and I just want to make the most of it.
(My personal opinion is to get politic off our ass and let s do our jobs.)

Chris



"An appeal to arms and the God of hosts is all that is left us. But we shall not fight our battle alone. There is a just God that presides over the destinies of nations. The battle sir, is not of the strong alone. Is life so dear or peace so sweet as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it almighty God. I know not what course others may take, but as for me, give me liberty, or give me death."

Speech at the Second Virginia Convention at St. John's Church in Richmond, Virginia (23 March 1775) Patrick Henry

Well, I figured that Eh? is a Canadian thing... no offence, but it's not used that often and it sounds.. odd... coming from someone that isn't from here.. even in type...

Politicians, sadly, are the only thing we have to represent us, and until they can be uncorruptable, these kinds of heated discussions will keep happening.




Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.

if North Korea is such a big deal, why doesn't Canada just go in there and stop it?

didn't think so.

just a hypothetical question, if you were a dictator and knew someone was coming after you because they knew or at least thought you had nukes, would you leave them sitting on your front porch?? Just an FYI I have pictures of where we found entire fighter jets buried in the sand. Just something to nibble on.


<a href="www.russelspc.com">
<img border="0" src="http://russelspc.com/jbody2.jpg">
</a>

GAM:

First let me ask you this:
Would a dictatorship or regime that are in control of the people allow us to Aid them in any way?, to gain there trust and support by doing so would surely bring them down. Only after the oppression is removed can we begin to help the people and that is why we are still over there.

Your right there are other places we should be doing more in like you said N. Korea.That still doesnt make me think that going into Iraq was a waste or a mistake, it was the RIGHT thing to do. Its a shame that more Americans cant see things the way you do because you seemed to have a balanced opinion on whats going on in todays world, somewhat neutral. (correct me if Im wrong). Thats what this country needs though is balance thats why there are.....well...republicans and democrats.

Although I disagree with this comment

GAM (The Kilted One) wrote:


You follow orders because you have to, however, your faith and trust are misplaced.

I am in the military as well (Air Force baby ) And I follow orders because i WANT to, my faith in my commander and his ability to make these decisions has not wavered. I will continue following orders as long as there is a need for me to.


____________________________________________________________________

Madjack wrote:Like I said before, building an engine like ours (2.2 or 2200) is a painstaking chore , since there is so few custom made parts. It's frustrating to me too, but that's what I like about doing this engine, it's the challenge.

KevinP:

There are UN patrols there. It's not strictly a US operation. I know a few people that were there as observers (RCMP) and stood guard.

Crazy Midget:
Did you perchance find any of the converted El-Al Missile erectors?
How about the engines for those jets? Controls?

They were buried in the sand 13 years ago as part of UN resolution to de-mobilise the Iraqi war machine and turn it to a defence-only group. You'll also notice it was successful as Iraq was not invaded by Iran (who still has an axe to grind).

And the problem is, even ISG has said there were no nukes. Google the Duefler report, or <ahref="http://www.cia.gov/cia/reports/iraq_wmd_2004/">CLICKY</a>, I advise you get up on your speed reading, it's about 1000 pages. I would go to the KEY FINDINGS area first.

You'll find while there were portions of a programme, nothing was active after 1991, and the reactors that were in operation were in fact being used for Civil electricity generation, not WMD development.

Jbody2nr:
I'm going to quote liberally here...

Quote:


First let me ask you this:
Would a dictatorship or regime that are in control of the people allow us to Aid them in any way?, to gain there trust and support by doing so would surely bring them down. Only after the oppression is removed can we begin to help the people and that is why we are still over there.

The oppressor is out, he will be tried by Iraqi courts and most likely executed for crimes against the Iraqi people.

Second, there are ways to bribe a petulant regime to allow help in, ie, the original intent behind the oil for food programme, however, if you look back, The economic sanctions placed on Iraq really cemented Hussein in power. He then definitely became the dictator (not that he was a great guy before hand, he was always pretty brutal) his people would fear.

Also, the aid does not have to be overt. It happened in Afghanistan in the 70s & 80s, and by 84 it was pretty clear the Afghanis were getting help from the west because they had shoulder fired stinger missiles. They also got training from US army and CIA, as well as money, presumably, the aid was supposed to increase once the Russians were out, but that was a ball Regan dropped, and GHW Bush didn't pick up because of Iraq.

Quote:


Your right there are other places we should be doing more in like you said N. Korea.That still doesnt make me think that going into Iraq was a waste or a mistake, it was the RIGHT thing to do. Its a shame that more Americans cant see things the way you do because you seemed to have a balanced opinion on whats going on in todays world, somewhat neutral. (correct me if Im wrong). Thats what this country needs though is balance thats why there are.....well...republicans and democrats.

Well, I think that the better idea is to put aid and boots where they're needed most desperately... Iraq could have been kept contained, and while I don't like saying this, the murders in Iraq scream for no greater or lesser justice than in Sierra Leone, the only difference is that the "rebels" there have been rampaging for almost 45 years, and slaughtering people for at least as long, and they've been financed by the DeBeers diamond cartel. Slaughter for diamonds or oil... I think that either way it would have been worthwhile, but if you want to go tit for tat, there's been over 2 million people killed in Sierra Leone since the "rebels" have been there. Iraq is at about 280,000 in 30 years, last I read.

Iraq had to be dealt with, but I seriously believe that there was a better way to do it than outright invasion.

What troubles me (very, very deeply) is that there isn't this kind of discussion going on in the senate and congress. I'm proudly Canadian, and it's worrysome that I'm one of the people making some of the most vigament arguments against the current trends. I don't HATE Dubya, I haven't even met the guy, but I do not believe that he's making sound decisions regarding the use of military force with Iraq... now that he's gone and had the country invaded, I think it's going to be a very long and very hard road out of hell with that country, it's de-stabilised the entire area.

Quote:


Although I disagree with this comment <Snip GAM Quote>
I am in the military as well (Air Force baby ) And I follow orders because i WANT to, my faith in my commander and his ability to make these decisions has not wavered. I will continue following orders as long as there is a need for me to.

Believing in your CIC isn't a requisite, but if you do and you trust with your eyes open, then that's great. I prefer that you and others be educated about their beliefs. I may be different because I have an unique perspective (I get a lot of US/CDN/other news information)... I guess you could say I can go on both sides of the bubble. I don't trust your president because I've seen a lot of things that are questionable, and some that very seriously make me wonder how he got as far as he did... but then again, I just have to look at the bankroll behind his campaign.




Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.

Quote:

There are UN patrols there. It's not strictly a US operation. I know a few people that were there as observers (RCMP) and stood guard.

Patrol, observed, stood. those key words are defining the failure. sure, we could all hang around with our thumbs up our asses. if canadians think that North Korea is a threat, why doesn't Canada do something about it? that goes for all countries.

as Average Joe American would see it, Iraq was told to show the U.N. around so we could look for anything that they weren't supposed to have. Hans Blix and his homies went over there and took a peek, but weren't allowed in certain areas. What's being hidden there? Who knows, who cares? Since the U.N. was standing with it's collective thumb in it's collective turd-pipe, the U.S. decided to go ahead and get in there and resolve any issues. WMD or not, it's piece of mind.

but for really thinking about it, how's this: take away any speculation of why we WENT there, and think about why U.S. troops are STILL being killed there.

i think that's why we're still in Iraq; because we're not done there yet. Average Joe Iraqi praises and rejoices a U.S. soldier, so it's obvious that the general populations don't mind us there because they can't defend themselves...yet.

Who would gain if the U.S. abandoned Iraq? Iran and a few others.

How would you define Vietnam? hmm?

Korea was a simple objective, keep the communists out. Read up on it. There's a reason why WE didn't go in there, and that reason is China. The same reason stands now. As much as there is some masutbatory fantasy that the USA has all the nukes in the world, there are as many tactical and ICBMs in China as there is in the western USA.

If you want to know quite frankly, there is a reason your President didn't waltz the troops off into Korea in a drunken, post-Iraq stupor, and that is also the same reason there has been a stand-off for 52 years: prudence. If anyone decided to become provocative in that area, it would tip the hand of North Korea, and more than likely China as well. Peace negotiations worked, and outside of a handfull of skirmishes, it's been working.

The only way you could deal with North Korea is first, wait for Kim Juong Il to pass on, and then work diligently to economically sate the people, and when that happens, they can push for governmental reforms.

I suggest while you're looking up the "failure" of <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Korea">northern Korea</a>, you also look up the principle of <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutually_assured_destruction">Mutually assured destruction</a>. Apply it to the situation in North Korea at the time of the war, and you ougtta get the picture.

I have a question before I go on any further:
Is everyone so historically challenged that they don't remember that Blix and all other inspectors were give unfettered access to everywhere they wanted to go and un-monitored access to whomever they wished? This was 3 months plus before invasion. But, <a href=" http://www.armscontrol.org/factsheets/iraqchron.asp">don't take my word for it</a>.

If you're asking to forget that the entire premise of going into Iraq was bogus, and an utter sham in the first place, you can bloody well forget it. You're asking me to ignore a naked power grab from a president that had a standing vendetta against the leader of another country (do you forget that Saddam "Tried to kill my dad?" comment from Dubya?), and that Iraqis are infact, worse off now that the Invasion has happened, because now instead of a cemented in dictator, they have to worry about irrational and irregular Terrorists.

Forgetting what started the problem is what gets you into trouble because you lose perspective.

The problem now, is that your President has committed your country to pay for a war that really didn't have any foundation. Hope you don't mind another recession in 4 years.



Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.