flag burners disgust me... they have no sense of pride in their country whatsoever, and dont try to tell me that its okay as a form of protest. show me one, just one, patriotic person thats burned a flag and ill show you a green dog!
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IF U BURN THE AMERICAN FLAG IN PROTEST YOU SHOULD BE SHOT
im with you there borsty!
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shortcut90 wrote:flag burners disgust me... they have no sense of pride in their country whatsoever, and dont try to tell me that its okay as a form of protest. show me one, just one, patriotic person thats burned a flag and ill show you a green dog!
Quote:
IF U BURN THE AMERICAN FLAG IN PROTEST YOU SHOULD BE SHOT
im with you there borsty!
Ok How about martin Luther King. He was a true american and patriot that changed a ntion Principals of Free speech, He burned a flag. Plus all the people that Burned flags during the South African Apartide, They burned to prove a point, America will not support Oppression or if it does it is not America.
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i understand that its a freedom, but just because its a freedom does not make it right, and yes its freedom of speech of some reason, even thou its an action rather then speech.
i love how anything can be twisted in this country to fit peoples own views.
-Borsty
Borsty wrote:
i understand that its a freedom, but just because its a freedom does not make it right, and yes its freedom of speech of some reason, even thou its an action rather then speech.
i love how anything can be twisted in this country to fit peoples own views.
Damn those opposable thumbs too
It's an action, but it's covered under the First ammendment, otherwise, you'd probably see the vagina monologues black listed because of decency concerns, or Rent because of the "gay agenda."
As I said, it's a double edged sword, and that's life.
Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.
the 2nd ammendment says i have the right to bear arms, so i guess that means i can shoot a bunch of people cause the 2nd ammendment says so.
-Borsty
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flag burners disgust me... they have no sense of pride in their country whatsoever
Pride has to be tempered with a good understanding of what's going on--and not be blind. You get blind pride and blind patriotism, and the fit hits the shan (see also: Germany in the 1930's).
Again, I have no pride in this country because it's given me no reason to be proud of it--only the framers of the country have had much vision and a few scattered individuals since. The rest is a naked powergrab.
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flag burners disgust me... they have no sense of pride in their country whatsoever
Pride has to be tempered with a good understanding of what's going on--and not be blind. You get blind pride and blind patriotism, and the fit hits the shan (see also: Germany in the 1930's).
Again, I have no pride in this country because it's given me no reason to be proud of it--only the framers of the country have had much vision and a few scattered individuals since. The rest is a naked powergrab.
would u rather live somewhere esle then? if not, then start taking some pride in your country where u have more opurtunity then anywhere esle or move out.
-Borsty
Borsty wrote:the 2nd ammendment says i have the right to bear arms, so i guess that means i can shoot a bunch of people cause the 2nd ammendment says so.
No, The Second ammendment allows you to bear arms, but not to use them in petulance:
Amendments to the Constitution, Article [II]:
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.
And Article
:
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
Burning the flag falls under the Free exercise of speech, and peaceably assemble.
If you don't like flag burners, they're getting your attention which is exactly what the act is meant to do. You turn off your brain to what they're saying, you don't give any thought to what they're actually talking about, you're not a potential threat.
Let's also not forget:
- Not only Peace-niks and hooligans Burn the American Flag, Hate-groups, preachers thereof, and yes, even presidential Candiates and Elected officials did it.
- It's a symbolic act, and the flag is NOT the country, it's merely a symbol.
- You don't have to watch.
And the "love it or leave it" tripe is far too simplistic. Just remember, your country was founded on people wanting better, and wanted to do it in a way where the powers that be are beholden to those that give them power (ideally, the people), and they responsibly use that power.
Take a look at either house and tell me that you actually see that happening.
Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.
Borsty wrote:Roofy wrote:Borsty wrote:IF U BURN THE AMERICAN FLAG IN PROTEST YOU SHOULD BE SHOT
Wow, maybe we should be converted to a dictatorship, so noone can protest the government!!! Just remember Borsty, banning protesting in any way shape or form is one of the 3 main ingredients to create a dictatorship.
go overboard much?
How is that going overboard??? As I said above, it's one of the 3 main ingredients in creating a dictatorship.
1. Ban protesting of the government. If people are afraid to protest, the majority will see nothing wrong.
2. Control the media. If you are able to spread your propaganda as far as possible, you'll eventually start to convince people that your intent is right.
3. Instill people in places of power that hold your views. Get enough people in, and the minoritly will lose their power, and you can control everything.
OK, here's another question for you Borsty... If people are no longer allowed to protest their government, then what exactly are they supposed to do??? Write their congressman??? How are they supposed to express their views when for all intents and purposes, their opinions are hidden??? Questioning and protesting he government is a VERY GOOD thing. Being satiated and blindly following others is bad.
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Dale Marks wrote:98_SunFire GT wrote:shortcut90 wrote:flag burners disgust me... they have no sense of pride in their country whatsoever, and dont try to tell me that its okay as a form of protest. show me one, just one, patriotic person thats burned a flag and ill show you a green dog!
Quote:
IF U BURN THE AMERICAN FLAG IN PROTEST YOU SHOULD BE SHOT
im with you there borsty!
Ok How about martin Luther King. He was a true american and patriot that changed a ntion Principals of Free speech, He burned a flag. Plus all the people that Burned flags during the South African Apartide, They burned to prove a point, America will not support Oppression or if it does it is not America.
and he did get shot...
lol, thats just what i was thinking!
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Might I suggest reading BOTH 1984 and Animal Farm by George Orwell. You can even DL the Audio book if you look on a torrent site.
Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.
the flag act defines the proper treatment and care for an american flag; and also describes it as a living entity. hence, burning the flag would be the same as burning any other living entity.
by that logic, constitutionally you are entitled to burn the flag because of your freedom of expression, but the flag also has protective rights of it's own. so i'm with Borsty on this one, if you burn a flag, it's no less than burning a living being IN THE EYES OF THE CONSTITUTION. and you could and should be shot.
Then line up George Dubya and few hundred other politicians.
I guess <a href="http://straylight.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode04/usc_sec_04_00000008----000-.html">Title IV</a> only applies when it's some liberal, peace-nik or hippy, but if its a shoddy businessman that greased his way to the top, well then it's just fine and dandy.
From
http://207.114.199.161/news/29347.html :
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But Rep. Jerrold Nadler, D-N.Y., said, "If the flag needs protection at all, it needs protection from members of Congress who value the symbol more than the freedoms that the flag represents."
Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.
^^^ that's a replica of a flag. that is to a real flag what a hotwheels is to a ferrari. it's not considered an actual flag. hell, if that were a real flag, the makers should be thrown in jail for putting staples through it.
burning a flag is not (imo) considered "speech". speech is spoken or written WORDS. note the key word there is "words". if someone wants to protest the government and the USA, they have every right to say or print whatever they feel like. burning a flag is just plain ignorant. it should NOT be covered under the freedom of speech laws because as i said earlier it is not speech. there is plenty of other ways to get your point across without burning a flag. that (again, imo) is going way over the top, and should earn the person prison time.
Yes, it is considered a "real flag." It is a likeness and is infact, as manufactured, a flag of the United States of America, and is afforded the same protections as a parade flag, or the shoulder patches on the uniforms of soldiers.
How about all those good ol' american companies that bastardise the flag at every turn in their advertisements, on credit cards and as part of their corporate logos? Yeah... if you want to start getting anal about burning or desicrating the flag, you better be prepared to get anal with every one of those defiling bastards because they'd be in violation of flag code. Why, if you want to get uptight about it, it actually says:
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No disrespect should be shown to the flag of the United States of America; the flag should not be dipped to any person or thing. Regimental colors, State flags, and organization or institutional flags are to be dipped as a mark of honor.
So you may never have a marching band with the flag tilted forward, and the BoyScouts may never put their hand on the flag to affirm an oath.
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(c) The flag should never be carried flat or horizontally, but always aloft and free.
Well, damn, there goes all those "patriotic showings" at football games, Basketball games etc.
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(d) The flag should never be used as wearing apparel, bedding, or drapery. It should never be festooned, drawn back, nor up, in folds, but always allowed to fall free. Bunting of blue, white, and red, always arranged with the blue above, the white in the middle, and the red below, should be used for covering a speaker’s desk, draping the front of the platform, and for decoration in general.
Forgive me, that means that a good number of jackets, pants, shorts and (GOSH!) bikini's are going to have to be done away with... IT'S THE LAW!
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(g) The flag should never have placed upon it, nor on any part of it, nor attached to it any mark, insignia, letter, word, figure, design, picture, or drawing of any nature.
Oopsie! Sorry, that proved my point about Bush.
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(i) The flag should never be used for advertising purposes in any manner whatsoever. It should not be embroidered on such articles as cushions or handkerchiefs and the like, printed or otherwise impressed on paper napkins or boxes or anything that is designed for temporary use and discard. Advertising signs should not be fastened to a staff or halyard from which the flag is flown.
Again, my point is made.
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(j) No part of the flag should ever be used as a costume or athletic uniform. However, a flag patch may be affixed to the uniform of military personnel, firemen, policemen, and members of patriotic organizations. The flag represents a living country and is itself considered a living thing. Therefore, the lapel flag pin being a replica, should be worn on the left lapel near the heart.
WOW!!! I think I just heard some arguments deflating.
It says in US code, Title IV, Chap. 1, Sect. 8, that the flag represents something. It is not an institution, it's mapped out that it is merely a symbol. Sorry, you can burn a copy of the constitution, that's legal... I think that it stands for a LOT more than the flag, it's the actual rights and freedoms you have and enjoy, not just a rally banner.
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(k) The flag, when it is in such condition that it is no longer a fitting emblem for display, should be destroyed in a dignified way, preferably by burning.
I guess all those civil war era flags that are burned or tattered are due for destruction as well... they don't represent the republic as it stands now, and they are no longer an emblem for the country, of course, that's by your reasoning CF.
http://www.tacitus.org/story/2005/6/23/8144/00768 <-- Might shed a little light on what "Free Speech" and the oft forgot "Freedom of expression" actually is. Burning the flag... it's under the freedom of expression part.
Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.
GAM (The Kilted One) wrote:Borsty wrote:the 2nd ammendment says i have the right to bear arms, so i guess that means i can shoot a bunch of people cause the 2nd ammendment says so.
No, The Second ammendment allows you to bear arms, but not to use them in petulance: .
im well aware, i was making a joke of how outrageous it is that free speech lets us burn a scared object.
Roofy wrote:Borsty wrote:Roofy wrote:Borsty wrote:IF U BURN THE AMERICAN FLAG IN PROTEST YOU SHOULD BE SHOT
Wow, maybe we should be converted to a dictatorship, so noone can protest the government!!! Just remember Borsty, banning protesting in any way shape or form is one of the 3 main ingredients to create a dictatorship.
go overboard much?
How is that going overboard??? As I said above, it's one of the 3 main ingredients in creating a dictatorship..
banning burning a flag isnt goin to turn us into a dictatorship, holy @!#$ dude, clam the hell down.
Roofy wrote: OK, here's another question for you Borsty... If people are no longer allowed to protest their government, then what exactly are they supposed to do??? Write their congressman??? How are they supposed to express their views when for all intents and purposes, their opinions are hidden??? Questioning and protesting he government is a VERY GOOD thing. Being satiated and blindly following others is bad.
YOU DONT NEED TO BURN A @!#$ FLAG TO PROTEST THE GOVERNMENT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! jesus christ.
-Borsty
Borsty: Sacred? No... hardly. If it were sacred, it would be immutable, and it would not be whored like it is daily. I'd be more pissed about the fact that its being used for tawdry purposes like elections and selling things and boxing ring attire in movies than the act of burning it as a part of freedom of speech and expression.
You either have full freedom of speech (which includes expression) you have no freedom of speech... this is one time that the slippery slope is very, very well greased.
Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.
a small change to an ammendment wouldnt make the whole thing worthless.
sacred- i used that for lack of a better term, it represents the greatest nation in the world to me, to me, i suppose thats sacred. but thats my defintion
and the thing posts to sell things and win elections are duplicates, fakes, knockoffs not a real true american flag.
-Borsty
Borsty: they are an American flag, you can have a kindergarten tempra-painted 4 bar field with a big blue blob in the upper left corner, and it's considered a flag.
As long as it carries the representation of the Flag, it doesn't need to have the right amount of stars and bars (because, obviously, the Flag has evolved), it's considered a US flag and is covered by Title IV. The miniature flags (like the one in the picture) have the right number of red and white bars in the field, and white stars on the blue part of the canton.. they're flags. There's nothing saying emphatically that a flag MUST be made of fabric of x-type, and it MUST be of X by X dimensions... if you don't consider them flags, then I suggest really reading what constitutes a flag, and why it's important to have the broadest definition.
I'm not trying to challenge your ideas on your country... I should have said it earlier, but you can choose the rights that the flag represents, or the flag itself and have little more than that.
I'm not American, but if I were, I'd choose the rights over the flag... the flag will always stand as a symbol, but it's nothing greater than a symbol, it doesn't bear greater weight than the freedoms it stands for. Burning it isn't done to defile the flag as part of the nation, burning is a symbolic act (except when it's done as disposal).
Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.
GAM (The Kilted One) wrote:Borsty: they are an American flag, you can have a kindergarten tempra-painted 4 bar field with a big blue blob in the upper left corner, and it's considered a flag.
I'm not American, but if I were, I'd choose the rights over the flag.
yes real flags are made out of x fabric is x dimensions for the purpose of being put on a flag pole. real flag and knock off are different things.
your not american(not good or bad),but still your views are askewed on the subject.
-Borsty
Borsty wrote:the 2nd ammendment says i have the right to bear arms, so i guess that means i can shoot a bunch of people cause the 2nd ammendment says so.
I am with you there!!! People are stretching out the 1st amendment to suite there needs, well my need is to take care of any disrespecting S.O.B.'s by stretching the 2nd amendment to suite my needs. WOOT!! I have learned though through this that ignorant people will be ignorant and those who are not will die trying to make it make sense to those that are. MLK did burn the flag and HE WAS WRONG!!! Not everything that you do will be right and perfect. If there was a perfect man on this earth then his name would be Jesus Christ and he hasnt walked this earth in a couple thosousand years. So just to clarify, MLK was not perfect. Some people get away with practical murder, take for instance John Kerry. What went through his retarded ass mind and that of his party when he decided to run for president. He should actually be serving a life term for all that he has done. Oh and the french has never helped us with anything, thats why I hate the french, you dont here a word from them unless they need help. Okay, Im out, gonna try not to post on this again but I probably will.
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Oh and the french has never helped us with anything, thats why I hate the french, you dont here a word from them unless they need help. Okay, Im out, gonna try not to post on this again but I probably will.
If it weren't for the French picking another fight with England back in the early 1800's there probably would be no America as we know it today. They also gave us the Statue of Liberty.
spikej wrote:Quote:
Oh and the french has never helped us with anything, thats why I hate the french, you dont here a word from them unless they need help. Okay, Im out, gonna try not to post on this again but I probably will.
If it weren't for the French picking another fight with England back in the early 1800's there probably would be no America as we know it today. They also gave us the Statue of Liberty.
to be fair, the french came in pretty late, and only came to piss of england.
but yes you are probably right spike.
-Borsty
