OPEN YOUR EYES
GET YOUR MIND CORRECT
"Speak the truth, and leave immediately after"
"The urge to save Humanity is almost ALWAYS a false front for the urge to rule"
"He who knoweth things as they are and not as they are said or seem to be, he truly is wise, and is taught of God more than of men."
gam its cool if you want to burn the flag its free speach. is it ok if i were to go outside
build a big wooden cross and burn it too? i should be able to express myself however i want right? how about posting raceist news letters all over a college campus cool too
right? or i know where a nazi uniform and go around spitting on the ground in front of jews. its all freedom of speach right? good old first amendment god i love it. or how about how the supreme court decided that that judge down south couldnt put up the 10 comandments in his court house..... oh wait i thought that would have been free speach. hmmm. how did that happen? please dont say seperation of church and state because its nowhere in the constitution. it was in a letter written by thomas jefferson to the constitutional congress so it should have no bearing on anything.
but it does. if people are so worried about a seperation between church and state then i guess they shouldnt use the money here "in god we trust". also the quote was
there should be no state sponcered religion. nothing about this seperation stuff.
so go ahead burn the flag. i fought for this country so did my dad and my grand dad
gulf war, vietnam, world war 1 and world war 2. so your little pansey ass could sit at your f--king computer and ask about buning the flag. go ahead i say burn it but dont be surprised when i come up to you in a nazi uniform with a burning cross and beet your dumb ass to death with it spit on your body throw my right arm in the air and yell zich hile!! cause its my freedom of speach right?
Semper Fi SAINT. May you rest in peace.
First off, Burning a Cross is only a fire-code violation, in and of itself there's nothing wrong with it, the baggage that comes along with it, due to the fact that its mainly a symbol of the Ku Klux Klan, is the problem.
There's a big difference: Burning the flag is about speaking out against a government that is unjust, burning the cross is about percieved racial cleansing and white supremicy.
If you decided to do something as fundamentally stupid as getting into a 3rd reich uniform and goose-stepping, then there are going to be a few people that will think you a moron, and a few others that will act against you... it's your right, and if you're that stupid, you deserve what you get.
Personally, I believe in the separation of church and state, so if the judge wanted a torrah or qur'ran passage on the wall, I'd say it shouldn't happen either. I also think that "In god we trust" is a hinkey subject, because it ignores other cultures, and it was only on coins and other paper money in the 50's and not before because you can fight communists with god and cash... I suppose.
Either way, if you start with the "don't give me separation of church and state" arguement, I'll gladly point you to where the church and state are inseperable, places like Saudi Arabia (where no Christian may prey in the open or carry a bible uncovered), Oman (where christians are routinely jailled for inciting unrest if they even have a bible in their house), Pakistan (where non-muslims are jailled routinely) and Iran (where non-muslims are killed without punishment). Hey, I'll take a place that likes to keep their p's and c's seperate, thanks. If you want to talk about that issue seperately, make a new thread.
You cansay whatever you want, you have that right. You also have the right to be wrong, and you're clearly, clearly exercising it.
Don't give me the oft-prattled line that "I did this for my country so blah blah blah." You defended your rights and others' rights. Thank you, you did your job, but that doesn't make you any more or less an authority figure on the exercising of said rights. If you find it disgusting that someone wants to burn the flag, that's fine...
I find it disgusting that you assign more importance to an object than the freedoms it symbolises.
Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.
Jbody2nr wrote:OK let me spell it out to you AGAIN. It is not always about us and what we want but, if you want to be like that Saddam himself was a threat to every living American in or outside this country. Dont be selfish all the time.
OK, HOW was Saddam a threat??? All of those non-existent WMD's he had??? The killing of thousands of "innocent" people??? (Which was wrong, but not a threat to the US) Are those ghosts gonna come and haunt us??? Or, more than likely, was this "war" really about greed and lies??? It just seems suspicious that Bush developed a severe case of Alzheimer's regarding Osama Bin Laden around the middle of 2002. In fact OBL wan't mentioned much by Bush's administration until election time rolled around again. All of a sudden, Saddam was the bad guy, Saddam was in posession of WMD's, Saddam was the major terrorist threat to the US. Saddam this, regime change that, it's never ending the excuses that this government has come up with in order to stay in Iraq. There are 4 very different and isolated excuses that I can think of right now for the Iraq mess. 1. WMD's 2. Get rid of Saddam 3. Operation: Iraqi Freedom. 4. Kill the insurgents.
It seems that whenever one excuse had dried up or has proved to be based on subjective hearsay, another reason comes along to try and convince the American people that invading another country is right. There's a reason why Bush and Tony Blair are among the most hated heads of their country right now.
Currently #4 in Ecotec Forced Induction horsepower ratings. 505.8 WHP 414WTQ!!!
Currently 3rd quickest Ecotec on the .org - 10.949 @ 131.50 MPH!!!
GAM: That was the most simple, yet resounding statement made in this thread yet! I commend you sir!
"Speak the truth, and leave immediately after"
"The urge to save Humanity is almost ALWAYS a false front for the urge to rule"
"He who knoweth things as they are and not as they are said or seem to be, he truly is wise, and is taught of God more than of men."
jackalope, well said bro
Gam- I guess burning the flag would be a fire code violation too huh?? I too believe you are exercising the right to be wrong, burning the flag that represents the country you live in is pretty ignorant, and last I checked this country was founded on religion and for doing what is morally right. Do you honestly thing our for fathers would be proud of burning OUR flag?? Do you honestly think THAT is morally right?? and last you are now saying that it symbolizes freedom, why would you want to burn the thing that symbolizes your right to do so?? That sounds really ignorant to me.
last but not least Roofy- I really like how you skated around my comment about how this war would be on our turf. And the thing about the WMD's, if you were a dictator and knew that the worlds biggest super-power was coming after you to get you for having WMD's, are you going to leave them on your front door??When I was in Iraq they were uncovering entire fighter jets that was buried in the sand. If they had time to bury an entire jet, dont you think they would have thought about the WMD's that is about 1:20 the size of one of those jets?? Call me crazy, but I would get rid of those things asap!!
And to those that would love to beat the @!#$ out of the guy who wears a nazi uniform praising Hitler, and the guy who is burning the cross, but think its ok to burn our flag, I want to beat the @!#$ out of them too, but I also want to beat the @!#$ out of you too!!
If I ever catch someone burning my flag, prepare for an ass whoopin! I will go to jail for that!
<a href="www.russelspc.com">
<img border="0" src="http://russelspc.com/jbody2.jpg">
</a>
I think the founding fathers of the US would be proud to know that the rights that they defined were being used to further a discussion and facilitate dialogue. Burning the flag is something many would have found morally repugnant when they were not revolutionaries. Mind you, I'm talking about the Union Jack of Britain. They had no problems burning the flag after first continental congress.
Also, the <a href="http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Deism">Deist</a> views of the founding fathers also implicated a more reasonable and accomodating view... if that meant government was to not be part of the church, then the church should not be part of the government. They held their views because it was not wise to proclaim one religion (at the time, puritans were thought to be of different religious rootings than moderate protestants) as the religion of the nation.
The burning of the symbol itself symbolises the desicration of the freedom and rights that were once sacrosanct. Don't you get that?
If somoene burns your flag, that's your property... if they burn theirs, and it happens to be an American flag, you can sit back and watch.. it's their right.
I don't want to hurt anyone that would be so imbecile as to strut around like a ninny in a Nazi party uniform or KKK hood and sheet...
Why?
Because they WANT me to want to hurt them. I never argue with stupid people, they'll drag you down arguing with their logic and beat you with their experience.
I rather pity them, they don't fully grasp what either stood for, and why both are so wrong.
Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.
Quote:
lost a little respect for you there. you did not narrowly escape iraq you punked out and pulled a bitch move.
I never believed I needed your respect to fourish, I really could care less. I did not punk out as you would like to call it. I have obligations that are more important than going to war behind LIES. You apparently are not a reality based individual. Bottom line is that I'm not going to fight for anyone who has lied to me about the cause or justification of taking lives. Yes is does interfere with my conscience, and if even the military thought that people couldn't have a change of heart, they would not have instilled that clause. That shows your idiocy right there. You are ignorant and need educating.
you don't need my respect, no one needs it and most could care less if they had it anyways. i had some respect and compassion at one point in time. that clause was instilled to calm the bleeding heart liberals, oo ooo look he does not believe in killing another living thing it's so wrong booo hooo, and by keeping the "bad" media down.
Quote:
no matter how you got there you signed up and accepted the job, if you did it for 8 years in any form you knew exactly what you were doing every time after the first, i can give you the first enlistment as a mistake in judgement
Again your ignorance predeeds you. Anyone that joins the Army will perform a total of 8 years active and inactive time. Never have I re-enlisted because right around the time it came up, I was coming off of active. I did accept the job, true enough. But as stated before, if I felt like there was somethign wrong with what I was being assigned to do, then as a man I can choose otherwise. If you believe that you're some robot only to take commands by your superiors, then you are quite frankly stupid for not investigating your rights as a military person.
yeah my ignorance gets places hours before me sometimes, i am fully aware of how the service obligation is structured. i do not understand
Quote:
Never have I re-enlisted because right around the time it came up, I was coming off of active.
did you serve 8 years active, just some active and some inactive. by the time your active service is up your re-enlistment window is already closed anyways. as far as being a robot, no you are not but if the orders are legal and (gray area here) moral you are expected to follow them.
Quote:
then you turned and weaseled out after things changed and you might actually have to perform.
I had more under my belt by the time I hit 21 than you will in a retirement career.
what the hell does that mean?
Quote:
give me that CO @!#$ either, there are plenty of places you could have helped other soldiers without "likely having to take a life" (read worrying aboot your own ass) but you whined enough until you were let out.
If I am completely against the war, why would I do ANYTHING to support it? I wanted nothgin to do with this war based o lies and greed. I wanted nothing to do with the killing of innocent people for living in a way since before the United States even came about. We are so quick to judge others like Americans are the only ones with morals and values. I wonder why we are the most HATED country in the world. And when you respond, "because we see something wrong and we go fix it, it's our duty as the leading counrtry", look again at what I said about being the only ones with values and morals. How conceited of you.
For you informational purposes only, I got out due to a hardship discharge. I have grandparents that are sickly whom I take care of. I have a niece who is now FATHERLESS behind LIES!! I have better thigns to do than go overseas to fight for the "freedoms" of others that I as an American don't even have over there. You can now admit your ignorance of the entire situation and be a MAN, or you can come back with your elementary argument. I'll glady accept both.
our duty as the leading country
should be at home, leading by example. if your only knowledge of the situation is what you read from some congressman's web site and from the media then it is you who needs to sit back and educate yourself, everyone that is there is not running around shooting people to spread democracy in the name of god. there are many that are rebuilding schools, hospitals, and actually making a difference in the lives of the people. true there are many that will make everything out for the worse, and those that will ruin it for the others. many people in iraq are genuinely glad that we are there and are grateful, there are others that are only glad when you put a dollar in their hand, five minutes later they will be trashing america and their actions and start smiling to your face when it comes time to collect some more cash. when we leave the area will still be far behind the "civilized" world but the seeds will be planted, it depends on how we go whether or not the seeds are hate or progress.
for whatever reason we are in any other country is no longer relevant, the damage is done now we have the responsibility to clean up the mess we made.
i have taken this far off topic and this is it, everything from here on out will be aboot burning flags.
gam dude your great i got the EXACT responce i wanted to out of you and the others
here! high five dude! of corse i wouldnt where a nazi uniform or burn a cross or do anything at all to any jews, blacks, muslums, or anyone else im soooo not like that.
i was trying to prove (and it worked b.t.w.) that free speach is great but as long as it doesnt infringe on others rights in the process. in fact i think it says that somewhere
in the constitution about you having your rights as long as they dont take away the rights of others. thats why slavery couldnt work here it had nothing to do with lincoln
dont get me wrong he helped but it came back to the constitution. anyway dude i wouldnt fight you for burning the flag i'd just feel sorry for you that your stuck here in this horrible country with no way out... oh wait thats right you can leave whenever you like.
free speech is great but it can be taken too far take for example the two vienamees
(i know its spelled wrong) guys about 5 years ago that went down to the memorial wall
in d.c. well they whiped it out and started peeing on the wall as a form of protest against
the vietnam war. that was a bad idea. they premits to protest and everything and guess what happened? since they started BEFORE the police protection arived the group that was there for veterians day beet the two of them to daeth and damn near ripped apart the bodies. did you hear about that on the news? i bet not. but they got what deserved
free speech is a double edged sword that needs to be used with wisdom. if you say
what your thinking when your thinking it you could land in jail or worse. so when you praise free speech watch what you say.
Semper Fi SAINT. May you rest in peace.
Jackalope, how exactly is burning a flag infringing on
your rights again?
its not i brought up in my first post that all free speech isnt such a good thing you know
the whole hate crime thing. i was only trying to point out that
all forms of free speech are not good. burning the flag as a means of protest... not good. not infringeing but not good. but thanks for asking.
Semper Fi SAINT. May you rest in peace.
Roofy wrote:Jbody2nr wrote:OK let me spell it out to you AGAIN. It is not always about us and what we want but, if you want to be like that Saddam himself was a threat to every living American in or outside this country. Dont be selfish all the time.
OK, HOW was Saddam a threat??? All of those non-existent WMD's he had??? The killing of thousands of "innocent" people??? (Which was wrong, but not a threat to the US) Are those ghosts gonna come and haunt us??? Or, more than likely, was this "war" really about greed and lies??? It just seems suspicious that Bush developed a severe case of Alzheimer's regarding Osama Bin Laden around the middle of 2002. In fact OBL wan't mentioned much by Bush's administration until election time rolled around again. All of a sudden, Saddam was the bad guy, Saddam was in posession of WMD's, Saddam was the major terrorist threat to the US. Saddam this, regime change that, it's never ending the excuses that this government has come up with in order to stay in Iraq. There are 4 very different and isolated excuses that I can think of right now for the Iraq mess. 1. WMD's 2. Get rid of Saddam 3. Operation: Iraqi Freedom. 4. Kill the insurgents.
It seems that whenever one excuse had dried up or has proved to be based on subjective hearsay, another reason comes along to try and convince the American people that invading another country is right. There's a reason why Bush and Tony Blair are among the most hated heads of their country right now.
He still had the capability of chemical weapons, ever hear of a thing called mustard gas? he had a @!#$load of it that he tested on his people. Also I was just saying that he was A threat not the ONLY threat I know there are other places that we could be doing more in but I cant make that decision.
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Madjack wrote:Like I said before, building an engine like ours (2.2 or 2200) is a painstaking chore , since there is so few custom made parts. It's frustrating to me too, but that's what I like about doing this engine, it's the challenge.
Do you even read the articles I've posted?
<a href="http://www.cia.gov/cia/reports/iraq_wmd_2004/">Duelfer Report</a>
There were no Nukes, there were no undeclared Chem/Bio Agents (**There were leftovers that were allowed by treaty because Iran was still itching to wreak vengeance against Iraq for the war that happened throughout the 80's. )
There was no ability to launch them into neighbouring countries.
Stop flapping off at the gums and bloody READ THE PROOF, DAMMIT!
The Gassing of Kurds happened in
1989! GHW Bush didn't do a damned thing about it, hell the US continued to ship Chem/Bio agents and manufacturing to Iraq well after that into 1990!!!
The only time anyone got their hackles up was when Iraq invaded Kuwait.
WHAT THE HELL DOES THIS HAVE TO DO WITH BURNING THE FLAG????
Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.
GAM (The Kilted One) wrote:Do you even read the articles I've posted?
<a href="http://www.cia.gov/cia/reports/iraq_wmd_2004/">Duelfer Report</a>
There were no Nukes, there were no undeclared Chem/Bio Agents (**There were leftovers that were allowed by treaty because Iran was still itching to wreak vengeance against Iraq for the war that happened throughout the 80's. )
There was no ability to launch them into neighbouring countries.
Stop flapping off at the gums and bloody READ THE PROOF, DAMMIT!
The Gassing of Kurds happened in 1989! GHW Bush didn't do a damned thing about it, hell the US continued to ship Chem/Bio agents and manufacturing to Iraq well after that into 1990!!!
The only time anyone got their hackles up was when Iraq invaded Kuwait.
WHAT THE HELL DOES THIS HAVE TO DO WITH BURNING THE FLAG????
HEHE oops i missed that post, I just remember learning about it in High School, Sorry for my Ignorance. I bow to you GAM the Kilted One you are mightier than I. Yep Off topic too sorry.
On-topic:
My Last SAY:
People can burn the flag, it is their right to do so. I will not stop them nor inhibit them from their actions. It is VERY disrespectful, IN MY OPINION to any person, living or non-living that has fought, or died defending ANYTYPE of freedom. Whether in this countries favor or not. The flag (IN MY OPINION) is a symbol of America and by burning it you are disrespecting this land as well and if you dont like it, There are other countries that will welcome you with open arms. Im not saying they MUST leave they have their right to be here. Just as much as I. But even by burning the flag it is not likely that much will change, there are other ways to protest, without getting others all riled up, that have the same affect. Thank you and I bid you farewell.
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Madjack wrote:Like I said before, building an engine like ours (2.2 or 2200) is a painstaking chore , since there is so few custom made parts. It's frustrating to me too, but that's what I like about doing this engine, it's the challenge.
what are calzones? and are they realy any good? gam watch your blood presure.
Semper Fi SAINT. May you rest in peace.
basicly a big pocket pizza, and when cooked right they can be mighty tasty. just don't cook them in an oven with a flag in it so it does not ignite and burn up in the oven, it will make your calzone taste horrible.
JAckalope: Thanks
They've started measuring it BARs so I think I better lay off the coffee.
I just get a little pissed when conversation drifts to something WAAAAAY off the original topic.
ToBoGaN had it right, It's the same kind of thing you get if you fold up 2 pieces of pizza on themselves...
Jbody2nr:
Being respectful or otherwise, it's protected.
I like the Quote from Voltaire: "I may not agree with what yousay, but I'll fight to the death for your right to say it." I guess the frog knew a thing or two, eh?
Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.
can you put peparoni in the calzones? if so does it change the name?
peparonzes? maybe? oh i bet mushrooms, bacon and peparonies would be
soooo good!
now i'm hungry, gotta go.
gam watch the coffee too much isnt good for you you know. hows your mom been?
good i hope.
wait am i off topic again? damn i HATE when this happens!!
Mmmmm... calzones!
oh home made hamburgers fresh off the grill and i'm so hungry.
oh off topic again .......sorry
Semper Fi SAINT. May you rest in peace.
You can put whatever you want in a calzone, I used to work in a bakery that made them, you should've seen the calzones that I would come up with.
Yella02-I promise I will return to you in one piece and this will stay up until I am safely home
Mmmmm
Semper Fi SAINT. May you rest in peace.
Hey, I've limited myself to 15 coffees per day. Good thing I don't go to starbucks...
J/K.. I don't drink more than one a day. Honest.
I tend to dunk my flag in coffee before I burn it though... again.. just kidding.
I dunk it in kerosene.
again... just kidding, I throw in a calzone or two before I dunk it in coffee flavoured kerosene and light that mother up.
Okay.. really I'm kidding.
I only barbeque children that way.
But that's WAY off topic.
Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.
Mmmmm children.
i hear they go great with colzones and coffee.
Semper Fi SAINT. May you rest in peace.
I dip them in flag flavoured ketchup.
Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.
LOL, and GAM was the one bitching about being off topic. But anyways, I've never had a calzone, but I have been on an Italian food kick today. I had a Subway meatball sub wit pepperoni's on it. Yummy and fulfilling in all of it's goodness, just like burnng a flag.
But in all complete honesty, I fully support burning the flag in protest, I'll even recommend it, if someone feels the need. I'll even burn the flag in protest if angered enough at our government. BUT, I have never burned a flag myself.
Currently #4 in Ecotec Forced Induction horsepower ratings. 505.8 WHP 414WTQ!!!
Currently 3rd quickest Ecotec on the .org - 10.949 @ 131.50 MPH!!!
